139 replies to this topic

[damonwolf]

New, crappy, or casual players will eventually buy Clan Mechs and realize that Clan Mechs aren't as OP as they thought because of the pilot in it. No matter how much they nerf Clan Mechs, many pilots will still scream "OP" because they just aren't smart, experienced enough, or competent.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 06 August 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

rolling warhawk part of the day: 1200 dam and straight wins
rolled IS assaults later in the day: 400-800 and mostly losses.

I am going to laugh in the face of most of the clan apologists when PGI comes back with *gasp* DATA *gasp* that shows the clan mechs are more powerful. Data.

I predict deluges of salty tears when they nerf the mechs and the clanners whine.

I'll save you time and tell you what they'll say:

- the tests were rigged, only bd players played IS mechs (a huge steaming pile of BS that makes me laugh every time I read it)
- IS mech with FLD are far more proficient at killing than clan mechs
- clan mechs do more damage BECAUSE they spread it around (this cracks me up too)

and so forth.

Clan mechs are better. Its not the players, its the mechs. Anyone saying otherwise is rationalizing, clueless, or lieing. Period.

I've had two victories against the Clans. One was pretty stompy...which was a strange experience. The other was slightly harder, where 4 players had over 400 damage, 2 of those over 1000, and of course 8 under 200 damage. Clans did fairly poorly in that second one, though.

So, out of 7 matches 2 were victories for the IS, and 5 were of course defeats. In those defeats, out of those 60 teammates, 41 failed to reach 200 damage.

Edit: Here are the SSs:

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 August 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Evil Ed]

Sira Westland, on 06 August 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Hopefully this 'data' will help PGI find a balance. I like to think of myself as a good player, but having only run IS mechs tonight, every game has been very one sided.

Not sure what the answer is, but buying the clan mechs is not an answer for me...

I agree it could be that new players are more likely to be in IS mechs.. But I have seen a good number of Founders getting wiped out tonight too.

Agree, all IS vs. Clans lost, most of them because of clans having better pilots. But - I had a couple with good, known IS-pilots that did utilize proper tactics that still ended in a stomp. IS gets grinded down by the superior range (Alpine has been C-trolololol) of the clans and when we got close enough to put the AC20:s to use we simply didn't have any armour left.

I really enjoyed the IS vs. IS matches though - would love to see IS vs. IS mode added!

Edited by Evil Ed, 06 August 2014 - 03:50 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Well clans are supposed to be better. And by the prices they are gonna charge they BETTER be better.

Frankly at the price point they are at. If PGI wants to keep selling them, they will have to find another balance other than y'alls nerf it into the ground.

Probably go 10-12 or something like that when doing CW.

However when pugging. Well honestly there is no rule or nerf that is going to make any proud nerfherder happy. So honestly why bother..

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 06 August 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mystere, on 06 August 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

Well, the burden of proof that Clans are indeed OP is on you since you declared them to be as such. And you did not even offer any proof that remotely had any basis in science. I was just pointing you in the right direction.

The idea that you'd have something to "point me in the right direction" of is presumptuous. Maybe someone else wants to play your silly games of denying the obvious. It is fun to watch your delusions though, and it gave me a chuckle, thanks for that!

[Gyrok]

Asheron Realaidain, on 06 August 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

The idea that you'd have something to "point me in the right direction" of is presumptuous. Maybe someone else wants to play your silly games of denying the obvious. It is fun to watch your delusions though, and it gave me a chuckle, thanks for that!

Look at the pilot skill in the equations....

Take for example...the average player in my clan who has clan mechs:

Around since at least early open beta...playing consistently, no prolonged breaks.

Part of the comp team, or an alternate.

Drops at least 15-20 hours/wk

Average that does not...

Less than 6 months in game

less than 6 chassis owned.

You do the math...which pilots are OP regardless of the mech they drive...?

[Mystere]

Asheron Realaidain, on 06 August 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

The idea that you'd have something to "point me in the right direction" of is presumptuous. Maybe someone else wants to play your silly games of denying the obvious. It is fun to watch your delusions though, and it gave me a chuckle, thanks for that!

Translation: You have absolutely nothing.

Did you know that during the Middle Ages, it was "obvious" to everyone during that period that the world was flat?

Jman5, on 06 August 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Tell you what. You provide me $50,000 in grant money and I'll do your ridiculous analysis.

Well, it's much less ridiculous, not to mention more rigorous, than the "I got stomped, therefore the Clans are OP!" proof being offered.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mystere, on 06 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Translation: You have absolutely nothing.

Did you know that during the Middle Ages, it was "obvious" to everyone during that period that the world was flat?

Summary: pointless argument with broken record is pointless.

So tiresome to see this continue. Fine, I'll bite one last time.

Clan LRM20 Vs IS LRM20.

There is one of many OP imbalances. If you can find any more stupid examples of something unrelated, please feel free to post them here, I won't be looking.

Sorry that you can't handle it.

[Mcgral18]

Asheron Realaidain, on 06 August 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Summary: pointless argument with broken record is pointless.

So tiresome to see this continue. Fine, I'll bite one last time.

Clan LRM20 Vs IS LRM20.

There is one of many OP imbalances. If you can find any more stupid examples of something unrelated, please feel free to post them here, I won't be looking.

Sorry that you can't handle it.

Tell me how AMS affects that OP equipment of yours, and how it affects the isLRM20?

What happens when you put 2 of them against the missile barrage? Oh...you've wasted 5 tons, while the isLRM launcher will get some through.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

so... unless you win, you dont have fun? I love fighting in this game, win or lose. Its fun to try to take as many as you can then dump an arty strike at your feet as you go down to hopefully catch the lights swarming my feet.

Pretty sure no fight in history was every truly evenly matched.

Edited by Keira_NZ, 06 August 2014 - 10:48 PM.

[Sean von Steinike]

Axeface, on 06 August 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

So umm.
In order to defeat your superior opponent you need to avoid them and then attack them where your disadvantage is as least as possible (and they are JUST AS GOOD).

And you dont see why people are complaining about exclusive superior mechs?

IS mechs have better FLD. It just happens that it is shorter range.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Tell me how AMS affects that OP equipment of yours, and how it affects the isLRM20?

What happens when you put 2 of them against the missile barrage? Oh...you've wasted 5 tons, while the isLRM launcher will get some through.

And this is just a simple but good example of multi-dimensional vs. one-dimensional thinking ( ), which illustrates the importance of:

Mystere, on 06 August 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

• time and spatial-based dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

when determining whether the Clans are OP or not.

[Sprouticus]

Someone posted a couple of pages back that this test has minimal value. After consideraitons, I am not sure I agree. But I WILL say that we on this side cant analize it well


1) The did the majority of the test early in the day when the populaiton usually prohibits a tight Elo gorup. Thus skill defferences tend to be more pronouced. And with clan pilots generally having more experience, a wide elo range will always favor the clans.

However, PGI has the ability to account for this in THEIR data. They have the Elo spread and can use that as a facotr in detemrining the value of a specific match. In a perfect world all mathces would have people of exactly the same Elo. (which is not a perfect representation of skill but it is not bad either)

2) Low population also means the odds of 4x3 are less. The IS has a significant advantage in light mechs, and are generally on even par with mediums (if the IS pilots are in the 55 tonners). But if the MM has to break 4x3, you tend to end up with more heavies, which favors the clanners.

But again, PGI has the data to eliminate those outliers. We don't

3) Some mechs have a much higher value in solo and small group games vs large group play. The DW is amazing in small group play, very good in solo play, but only meh in large group play for instance.

PGI is only looking at solo play so that is not perfect, but since the majority of their players are solo players, balancing based upon the solo players is not a horrible thing as long as they take all Elo's into account.

4) The one mech that I do think deserves a review is the TW. My anecdotal evidence says that it might need some nerfs.

PGI can look at game data and take TW's out of the equation. They might even find a few games that have NO TW's. Unlikely but possible.


so yea, games with close Elo spread
Games form multiple Elo brackets
Games that stick to 4x3 (or conversely they could look at games that are not 4x3 as a comparrison).
Games without TW's

They would of course need lots of games to get some of that data. But they DO have the ability to get it, and maybe even in statistically significant numbers.

[Desdain]

IS vs. Clan?!

[Bromineberry]

Mystere, on 06 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Did you know that during the Middle Ages, it was "obvious" to everyone during that period that the world was flat?

*cough* Myth *cough*

[Goldhawk]

*Tosses Hat like Michael Jackson* Lets get started.

I was unaware of the test of IS vs Clan, but definately would have participated in it just to have the joy of either A) reaming clanners or Terrorizing IS players.

The clan mechs are presently NOT OP for several reaons that I will list below.

1) The are new and still have that new smell. The clan mechs have only been out for a few weeks, and people are playing them hardcore, and it is a welcome relief to the stagnated Inner Sphere mechs that we have been playing with ever since closed Beta. There was a time that we didn't get anything new, and just got "hero" versions of the same chassis over and over.

2) The previous game titles: Most of the previous game titles started the player out with Clan mechs and forced you to love them like an abusive boyfriend.
MW2: Start Clan....
MW2 Ghost Bear: Start Clan..... little dabbling with a few IS mechs, but clan all the way.
MW2 Mercenaries: What? Inner Sphere mechs?
MW3: Perhaps one of the worst games for this issue because they start you in a Inner Sphere mech then prod you into getting something more powerful.....like a clan mech?
MW4: As much as I loved it, and played it and its iterations several times, it is the closest thing to what is currently seen in public matchmaking. They just threw clan mechs at you anywhere and they were not special at all, they were really common and I would guess that most people outfitted their lance or later MW Mercs/MW Black Knight company: With clan mechs.

With the seperation, I think they are trying to make clan mechs severely different then the IS by putting them on a different team because hey, it's getting to the point that seeing a Mad Cat every match is common place. (YES I SAID MAD CAT I'm freebirth you clan heathans). Also, it allows many of the clanners to have a idea of identity, cause several times I have seen a clan drop and seen that one guy with a Steiner tag, and everyone boos.

3) Many of the weaknesses of the clan mechs have not been found yet. Are they killable? Yes. Would an organized team of IS mechs decimate a team of clan mechs, yes. The weaknesses of the IS mechs have been debated, desiminated, and done to death. The fragility of the Commando, the sexy chicken legs of the Raven, ripping off the Victor's right arm. These are mech weaknesses that we have internalized and understand when hitting R, on our keyboard.

Clan mechs and how to kill them for those people that NEED IT:

Dire Whale: It's a GIANT target. You could blind fold yourself, shoot in a random direction and still probably hit it in the CT or right torso. Run around it, it turns like a Mac Truck with a bad leg.

Warhawk: As much as I hate to bash my fav, shoot the torsos, left torso, all heatsinks, right torso, well, most of the weps.

Timber Wolf: Most people are favoring the Meta wolf, blast the torsos, and most time, they will be neutered.

Summoner: ahahahahahahahaaaa! *Wipes tears* sorry. Left torso, missiles/Arm/most weaponry.

Stormcrow: Leg the big chicken.

Nova: Leg'em. You shoot for the torso and hit the leg. It's funny.

Adder: Spit at it. It's that weak.

Kitfox: Once you find it, blast off that right arm, and cancel out the ECM, then obliterate the little guy.

Now all the mechs that I have listed I have personally killed with the Death's Knell. Not all at once, but over at least a week. Am I pro and magical. (Magical maybe) But I'm not amazing at my skills, I'm pretty average, if I have a good team, I'm fine. I'm happy with my 300-500 damage a match games.

But enough about how awesome I am, back to the issue.

Summarized for those that hate to read:

Inner Sphere mechs just like in the novels, everyone knows them, and knows their weaknesses.
Clan mechs are OMG, haven't seen this before everyone panic! 1st few matches I played clan, I got obliterated because of the meta IS builds on the other side. I was most likely the 1st Mad Cat death online. Just think when you play, and work with your team.
It is not the mech you pilot that determines the outcome, it is the skill of the pilot and the tactics that determine the outcome of the battle.----Dunno some smart guy. Probably me.

This was definately a quote from the novels, "Every mech has 2 weaknesses, (flaws), the engineer that thinks he made an indestructable mech and the pilot that believes the engineer.

Am I a genius? no, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Edited by Goldhawk, 07 August 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[Mystere]

Bromineberry, on 07 August 2014 - 06:28 AM, said:

*cough* Myth *cough*

You're ruining things.

[Mystere]

Sprouticus, on 07 August 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

4) The one mech that I do think deserves a review is the TW. My anecdotal evidence says that it might need some nerfs.

PGI can look at game data and take TW's out of the equation. They might even find a few games that have NO TW's. Unlikely but possible.

I think most people believe that the TW is indeed very good and is probably the best heavy. But, the question remains: Is it overpowered? That is a question for which I have not yet seen any very convincing "proof". Because before that is established, any nerfs done will just be PGI catering to incessant whining ... again.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Tell me how AMS affects that OP equipment of yours, and how it affects the isLRM20?

What happens when you put 2 of them against the missile barrage? Oh...you've wasted 5 tons, while the isLRM launcher will get some through.

Or you get 40 missiles for the weight of 20 in the IS.

Not a discussion about AMS, which the kitfox can carry 3 of...

Try again.

Oh, before you miss:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 37m
@BishopSteiner I guess it feels that way on paper but nobody has played it yet and remember the analytical are screaming OP

Russ has your data for that flow chart and dynamic fluid modeling, feel free to get to work whenever.

[Mcgral18]

Asheron Realaidain, on 07 August 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Or you get 40 missiles for the weight of 20 in the IS.

Not a discussion about AMS, which the kitfox can carry 3 of...

Try again.

Oh, before you miss:

Russ Bullock ‏@russ_bullock 37m
@BishopSteiner I guess it feels that way on paper but nobody has played it yet and remember the analytical are screaming OP

Russ has your data for that flow chart and dynamic fluid modeling, feel free to get to work whenever.

Feel free to ignore their counters. I'm actually not sure if an isLRM20 gets more LRMs past 2 AMS when compared to 40 cLRMs.

I know that 25cLRMs will never get past a dual AMS mech.