20 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

For reference:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=202&l=stock

I want to get this out of the way immediately before starting on the real discussion...

*** START OF RANT***

1) CASE with XL engines DOES NOT WORK.

2) Does PGI play their own game?

3) It's just bad, and you should feel bad.

This is how I would've built it:
KTO-18

It could probably use a bit more ammo, but whatever. The loadout is intended to suggest "a keep away" type of mentality to use it... because once you are brawling with MPL, your LRMs tends to become less than effective in a true brawling environment. Also, the lack of TAG in the Champion build is appalling for a missile boat.

*** END OF RANT***

So, while the build is terrible, it got me thinking of how CASE could be buffed to be useful.

There are many ways of doing it... but the simplest version that I can come up with is an "explosion reduction".

Basically, given the explosion damage of most ammo being rather excessive (take a look at the projected damage when Artemis LRMs and SRMs explode, let alone 1 ton of AC20 ammo)... decreasing the damage dealt by equipping CASE would be optimal. While THIS DOES NOT remove all damage (you will take damage regardless), it would make CASE NOT be instantly fatal/useless while fielded on an XL engine. A damage reduction of say 80 to 90% would be applied... whatever you got left is still applied to that section of INTERNAL ARMOR.. and if it is still too much, you'll still lose that section (and blow up). In the event that you DO survive it, it won't be the useless insta-gib mechanic. Half a ton to occasionally prevent ammo explosion death doesn't sound unappealing. It won't be as useful on Light mechs (low internal armor, and half tons could be used for engine upgrades - although it would be perfect for containing ammo explosions by AMS ammo), but it would be more useful in general.

This can be reworked in with any combination of ammo explosion damage changes (like, non-fatal ammo explosions for instance) and give meaning for CASE and XL (it will also benefit STD engines of course).

Right now, there's very little reason to use CASE... even while using a STD engine (I'm sure people will disagree), but knowing what CASE does at the current moment compared to what CASE does do XL (like nothing)... it needs to have some value.

Should this affect Clans? Probably not... but something similar could be applied. It's just that CASE is "free" for Clans... whereas the IS can only put them on two sections of the mech (both side torsos) for .5 tons and 1 crit each.

It's something worth thinking about, especially given a bad design decision by PGI to put up a Kintaro Champion that has CASE AND XL.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'd like CASE more if it also stopped explosion damage from transferring from the limbs into the torso.

[Deathlike]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 August 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'd like CASE more if it also stopped explosion damage from transferring from the limbs into the torso.

I don't mind that, but the mechanism involved would need to be fair... so as to not make CASE "a must have" when running ammo dependent builds.

IIRC, damage transfer through ammo explosions does not get reductions in damage... which in itself is a problem (internal armor is pretty low relative to the explosion damage being generated).

[Wintersdark]

Oh, god, that's hilarious. I don't expect Trial builds to be highly optimized, but to make one that's basically deliberately misleading to new players is a new low.

This'll just lead to more newbies making broken builds, and swearing CASE helps protect their XL.

[Ultimax]

C.A.S.E. in torso with XL.

Medium Pulse lasers.


It's not only bad that this will be played by new players through trial mechs, but that others have to play with these bad builds.


Your build is definitely a big improvement, although I'd even have been happy with 2x MLAS and 2x more DHS - but the ER LLAS would have been my first choice too.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 06 August 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Oh, god, that's hilarious. I don't expect Trial builds to be highly optimized, but to make one that's basically deliberately misleading to new players is a new low.

This'll just lead to more newbies making broken builds, and swearing CASE helps protect their XL.

I can see the next newbie logic twist on that.

"Since this is a Champion build, this must be a good idea!"

It is all sorts of bad.

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 August 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I'd like CASE more if it also stopped explosion damage from transferring from the limbs into the torso.

I'm thinking a 25 to 50% damage transfer from the explosion would be OK. Basically, it would be OK to store ammo on the sides (I mean, clans can do it, why can't you?) but it's somewhat of a tradeoff/risk if someone remove the arm on your mech that has ammo in it.

Even before the suggestion, I have fit ammo on the side arm before, but only sparingly because of the ammo explosion potential. The weapon(s) in that section would be the primary target for "absorbing" the hits, so the ammo would not get hit through crits.

[Mcgral18]

Wait...what. The Champ doesn't even have TAG?!


Who the hell made this?

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Wait...what. The Champ doesn't even have TAG?!


Who the hell made this?

Let us hope it's not Paul.

[Sephlock]

The Kintaro hero needed an orange, black, and white paint scheme...

[Mycrus]

Give them a break.... the intern didn't use smurfy to build this champion ; p

[Hans Von Lohman]

Actually, I believe CASE in MWO doesn't work the same as it does in the board game.

In MWO the CASE just means your ammo explosion does a fraction of the damage it would have normally done. I think it is only 10% damage.

So, it actually might be a good idea to put your ammo in CASE even if you have an XL engine.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Unfortunately since everyone is all about canon when it comes to the oddest of subjects, this would probably end up being that area. CASE II does pretty much what you are talking about, except it can be mounted in arms and I believe legs and only allows one section to be blown up. So if you could find a nice medium between the two, kudos to you, even though PGI doesn't ever listen to the good ideas that float around on this forum. I mean we still have SHS that are worthless.

Edited by majora incarnate, 07 August 2014 - 12:20 AM.

[Impyrium]

I for one actually found the build quite useful. Many things in MWO are 'bad' simply because it doesn't reach the 100% optimization levels that players have become stuck in. Pulse lasers, for example, are actually quite good if used correctly. But the thought they players might have to... gasp... play differently and more intelligently to get them to work great is quite a shocker. Really.

[MeiSooHaityu]

It still feels like a troll build with the LRM5s. I did run a Cat A1 with 6 LRM5s before. It is fun, but not really as effective as I hoped. However I will say this, chain firing LRM5s is a waterfall of annoying explosions for the target mechs vision.

With this Kintaro, I am currently running 2 ERLLasers and 5 SSRM2s w/ BAP. I have had good and bad luck both with it, but am overall happy with it.

[That Dawg]

AUSwarrior24, on 07 August 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

I for one actually found the build quite useful.

stop eating kangaroos. just stop

[Willard Phule]

Dude.

It's a freaking "Trial Mech." The only reason for buying a champion of any flavor is the 30% bonus to cbills and XP. It's not like you're going to keep that crap build once you buy it.

As for it being a troll build for new players....well, duh. Most of them are.

You have to keep in mind that in Bryan's eyes, the only "new players" are the ones going through their first 25 rounds. After that they're called "Elite Veterans," given an artificially inflated Elo score and tossed into the deep end with the rest of us.

Sounds kind of harsh, but it fits the business model perfectly. That "Elite Veteran" will drop a few bucks on his favorite Trial Mech chassis so he can rebuild it "better than they did," find out it doesn't matter and quit. PGI makes money and doesn't have to worry about putting out any kind of new player content because they all leave. Money money money.

[Deathlike]

Hans Von Lohman, on 06 August 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

Actually, I believe CASE in MWO doesn't work the same as it does in the board game.

In MWO the CASE just means your ammo explosion does a fraction of the damage it would have normally done. I think it is only 10% damage.

So, it actually might be a good idea to put your ammo in CASE even if you have an XL engine.

MWO's version of CASE is the same as TT... the thing is that since we don't have R&R, there's no point to it.

Losing a side torso while running XL means death.

CASE only allows you to "lose the side torso" so that the CT takes no damage from the ammo explosion.

Therefore, CASE does NOTHING for XL engines.

Willard Phule, on 07 August 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

It's a freaking "Trial Mech." The only reason for buying a champion of any flavor is the 30% bonus to cbills and XP. It's not like you're going to keep that crap build once you buy it.

Champion mechs ONLY provide +10% to XP growth and nothing more. Then again if you are running the Trial mech, you get ZERO bonus.

AUSwarrior24, on 07 August 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

I for one actually found the build quite useful. Many things in MWO are 'bad' simply because it doesn't reach the 100% optimization levels that players have become stuck in. Pulse lasers, for example, are actually quite good if used correctly. But the thought they players might have to... gasp... play differently and more intelligently to get them to work great is quite a shocker. Really.

Most newer players don't know how to maximum a trial mech's potential, thus making the point rather moot. Knowing that a newbie having ZERO clue how to lock on to an ECM based mech (since that is the bulk of their weaponry, unlike the Stalker-3F Champion or the Atlas-RS champion that has better backup weapons) is going to be problematic.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 August 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

IMO for MWO, CASE needs to contain the ammo explosion so it doesn't take out the whole R/L/C torso..... Slight TT rule modification for the reality that is MWO.

[BourbonFaucet]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Wait...what. The Champ doesn't even have TAG?!


Who the hell made this?

Theory: Paul has a pet monkey named BoBo.

BoBo gets a banana every time he finishes a champion build.

:3

[Deathlike]

Techorse, on 07 August 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Theory: Paul has a pet monkey named BoBo.

BoBo gets a banana every time he finishes a champion build.

:3

So you're saying... the Coconut Monkey did it!