41 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

So.. we had another Clan vs IS Test today.. and i saw the normal "omg clan need nerfed!" and "IS Mech's need buffed!" and of course the "Man Clan Mechs to do much damage!" stuff in the general chat.

Well.. my experience out of about 15 matches i was able to play Trended towards this simple truth.

In all of my Matches, The Clan mech's ALWAYS stayed together, at most i was in 2 matches were me and another Timber would split off and go hunting, but aside from that.. every clan mech was in a group.

Now the IS guys?.... 99% of the time, they were either:

A. Scattered out across the map.
B. Strung out in a line
C. Clusted together in a really really narrow space. (ie: the tunnel on river city i think it is? whatever that map is.)

Now did this lead to me winning the majority of my matches? Of course it did. Did it mean the Clan mech's were 'better' or 'stronger' or 'over-powered'? Not in the least. In general it just seems as if the Clan Pilots simply ACT as a TEAM better than the IS pugs do (and yes all of my matches were me going solo into the matchmaker).

The one, and sole exception to this, was one match (again on River city.. if thats the name of the map im thinking of... the one with the tunnel) In which both Clan and IS mech's faced off inside the 'city' peninsula thats to the North/East side of the map. No one stayed in one spot all that long.. no one really 'clustered' into a ball that couldnt manuver.. it was a general brawl were Everyone used cover as best they could and tried flanking as good as they could.

Was it a landslide win for the Clans? Nope. see below:

http://i3.photobucke...22.jpg~original

Yes we won. But it wasnt a 'landslide'.

Pure, up-close brawl, and the Clanners nearly lost.

Clan Mech's aint outright more 'powerfull' than IS mech's.

What people dont seem to grasp is that they are 2 different playstyles.

Clan BEAM weapons do slighly more damage yes.. but thats at a LOWER dps than what the IS mech's do.

For example:

IS ER LL:
9 damage
1sec duration
3.25sec cooldown
8.5 heat

9 DPS

Clan ER LL:
11.3 damage
1.5sec duration
3.25sec cooldown
8.5 heat

7.53~ DPS

So..what does this mean? Simple.
A. IS are 'burst' damage dealers.. you dont have to 'look' at your target as long as the Clan Mech does.

B. Your cooldown will also start earlier than the Clan Mech's weapon will. Meaning you can fire again before he will be able to.

C. The Torso-Twisting that all of the 'leet players' praise as the 'answer' to everyone always targeting only the CT is more effective on IS because it takes LONGER for the Clan beam to do its damage to each individual part it hits.

All of the above also applies to Clan AC's.. as they fire in 'bursts'. (Damage over time vs 'single-shot' of IS AC's) And LRM's (which fire in streams vs 'clumps' )

When it comes to AC's and Clans vs IS, Simple answer for IS is to KEEP MOVING. If your standing still, your gonna get hit by all of the burst-fired pellets. If your moving, its a extremely good chance some of those shells will miss as the Clanner adjusts his aim WHILE those pellets are still being fired.

When it comes to Clan LRM's. 2 things to remember:

1.) They fire in streams, meaning you can duck behind cover AFTER you start getting hit, and still get hit for less than if you had been hit by a IS LRM strike as with IS LRM's.. if you get hit.. ALL of the fired missiles likely hit you. They fire as one, they hit as one.

2) Because they fire in streams.. they are EASIER to counter with AMS systems than IS missiles. Since they come in 1 at a time, the AMS has a better chance of shooting down more of them as they fly past / come in. So dust off those AMS's you felt were worthless while fighting against other IS mech's (Because a 'clump' of missles = more will get past AMS systems) and start using them again.

So.... Personally? Do i think Clan Mech's are more powerful than IS mechs?

Nope. I actually like were they are at the moment.

At Long-Range, Clan's have a slight advantage with their longer ranged weapons, but again.. this is only true if the IS pilots are crazy enough to stand still out in the open long enough for the full duration of the Clan mech's weapons to finish their duration's.

Mid-Range, Both Clan and IS are decently equalized. Clan's still have to keep their weapons on target longer, but the range is at a level were that is slightly easier to do. And IS mech's are at a range that the 'extra' range of Clan mech's is nullified.

Close-Range,its all down to skill and teamwork (With IS having a slight advantage over Clans with their 'burst' damage instead of 'duration' damage). Knowing how to make use of cover, flanking, usage of short-duration weapons over long-duration ones, knowing how to keep someone at a specific distance (say 200m) so you can still use LRM's while using SL's and MG's effectively.

All of this, and 'teamwork' isnt even involved yet.

As i mentioned earlier. Most of the Clan Vs IS matches i was in, the Clanners almost ALWAYS stayed together in a group, or went out in pairs. The IS groups nearly always were scattered out. You can be a 12-man group of Ares Superheavy Mech's... and you'd still lose if you all go your separate ways while fighting against a 12-man group of Stormcrows that work together.

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 06 August 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Scratx]

I'll add that clan mechs also have a natural propensity to working together well because, other than the Dire Whale, they're all around the same speed. (81-109kph)

The Warhawk can almost keep up with that so it can be a very good assault for that reason.

[Thorqemada]

How much more CERLL can you mount on a Clan-Mech and how much more CDHS compared to ERLL and DHS on a IS-Mech?

1 on 1 Weapon comparion does not lead anywhere when you not compare the Weapon Carrier!

Edited by Thorqemada, 06 August 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[El Bandito]

Just post the number of times IS won and the number of times Clans won. I will infer my judgement from that.

At the end of the day, victory tells the biggest story.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[Goose]

I wonder how badly they have to mangle match-maker to get these games to happen …

[Gwydion Ward]

Thorqemada, on 06 August 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

How much more CERLL can you mount on a Clan-Mech and how much more CDHS compared to ERLL and DHS on a IS-Mech?

1 on 1 Weapon comparion does not lead anywhere when you not compare the Weapon Carrier!

Whats the point of carrying 8 LL's if you spend the entire match firing only once every 3 minutes? Clan mech's run hotter than IS mech's. Yes were a bit more free to create various builds, but we still have to manage heat.

And the 1-1 comparison was an example. Read the rest of the post not just the numbers at the beginning.

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 05:46 PM, said:

Just post the number of times IS won and the number of times Clans won. I will infer my judgement from that.

At the end of the day, victory tells the biggest story.

That would be like saying "Show me the numbers of times a 12-man group wins against a 100% PUG group.. i'll decide if the Mech's the 12-man group uses are Overpowered or not based on that."

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 06 August 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[Thorqemada]

The CERLL in your OP does more damage per heat than the ERLL...

[Gwydion Ward]

Thorqemada, on 06 August 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

The CERLL in your OP does more damage per heat than the ERLL...

If the target stands there for the extra 1/2 second... even then, the IS can fire his second volly before the CERLL can fire again.

[Aresye]

I will legitimately believe Clans are too powerful and need nerfed when two top competitive teams face each other 12v12, IS vs Clan.

- No new players that don't have Clan mechs.
- No players running IS trial mechs.
- 2 organized groups instead of random pugs.

So far the only things I've seen related to this are:
- 1 test by the Lords pitting Timberwolves against Dragon Slayers 4v5 and 5v5.
- 3 12v12 Clan vs IS matches within my own unit with IS winning each time.
- Every time the 228th rolls me and my group in mostly IS mechs.

Edited by Aresye, 06 August 2014 - 06:22 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Thorqemada, on 06 August 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

The CERLL in your OP does more damage per heat than the ERLL...

...and fires less often and takes longer to deal its full damage, but has greater range and occupies less tonnage and critical hit slots. Both of them occupy one energy hardpoint, though.

I'm still not sure how well-balanced it is and you shouldn't take this as me saying things are in proper balance already or not, but you can't isolate one element of how a weapon functions and use that to declare it stronger or weaker. If you could, then the Large Laser would be an absolutely superior weapon to the ER Large Laser by the same rote, since it generates considerably less heat for the same amount of damage.

[Ph30nix]

im getting pissed off i keep missing the damn things.

[RangerGee412]

Where the clans mechs get you is in range.

In your example you compare the IS er large to the clan ER large. At the clan lasers peak optimum range of 890m the IS er large is only doing about 7 damage per second versus the clans 7.53 per sec. if you compare the IS standard large to the clan er large the IS large is doing about 2 dmg per second vs the clans 7.53.

with the medium lasers the IS medium does 2 damage per second give or take vs the clan medium doing 5.25 per second at 400 meters.

Your example is correct but relies on the battle taking place in the IS weapons optimal range.

Clan weapons are lighter so your able to fit more DHS in to make it run cooler if the player chooses. Personally my IS mechs run hotter than my clan mechs.


What IS pilots need to do is cut the range down as fast as possible so your weapons are within their optimal range, then the better burst fire of IS weapons can shine. Outside of IS optimal range clan lasers out damage their IS counterparts per second of damage.

What I think will most likely happen is they will have to cut back on the range of clan weapons a bit to even it out a little.

PS I'm in no way saying the clan mechs are OP

Edited by RangerGee412, 06 August 2014 - 07:09 PM.

[Jorill]

The other thing, I would tend to think that at this point the people playing in clan mechs (willing to put the money in to be early adopters) are more likely to be people who play more often/more experienced. Not that it necessarily translates into more skill, but generally speaking, if you are enthusiastic about the game to put up more money, earlier, you're probably someone who takes the game more seriously/plays more.

Please don't read this like I'm saying p2win, just that the people who are more likely to invest are more likely to be more experienced as an average. I would guess this explains alot in terms of why you're seeing clan teams playing more cohesively.

[Gwydion Ward]

RangerGee412, on 06 August 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Where the clans mechs get you is in range.

In your example you compare the IS er large to the clan ER large. At the clan lasers peak optimum range of 890m the IS er large is only doing about 7 damage per second versus the clans 7.53 per sec. if you compare the IS standard large to the clan er large the IS large is doing about 2 dmg per second vs the clans 7.53.

with the medium lasers the IS medium does 2 damage per second give or take vs the clan medium doing 5.25 per second at 400 meters.

Your example is correct but relies on the battle taking place in the IS weapons optimal range.

Clan weapons are lighter so your able to fit more DHS in to make it run cooler if the player chooses. Personally my IS mechs run hotter than my clan mechs.


What IS pilots need to do is cut the range down as fast as possible so your weapons are within their optimal range, then the better burst fire of IS weapons can shine. Outside of IS optimal range clan lasers out damage their IS counterparts per second of damage.

What I think will most likely happen is they will have to cut back on the range of clan weapons a bit to even it out a little.

PS I'm in no way saying the clan mechs are OP

Yea.. i mentioned the 'range' being the Clan advantage. and while i was comparing the damage at each's optimal range, it still is a valid comparison. The Clan still has to keep his beam on the target longer, and waits longer to fire again because of it.

If for some odd reason PGI decides to cut down the extra range on the Clan beams, then thei'll also have to reduce the Duration as well to make up for it. *shrugs* as i said, for now, i think things are fairly well balanced. Most people yelling "their op!" are only looking at the individual 'stats' of the weapons (and their only lookinig at the 'damage' stat), Vary few are looking at the 'whole picture', such as AMS's vs Clan LRM's.

[RangerGee412]

Rhapsody Repine, on 06 August 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Yea.. i mentioned the 'range' being the Clan advantage. and while i was comparing the damage at each's optimal range, it still is a valid comparison. The Clan still has to keep his beam on the target longer, and waits longer to fire again because of it.

If for some odd reason PGI decides to cut down the extra range on the Clan beams, then thei'll also have to reduce the Duration as well to make up for it. *shrugs* as i said, for now, i think things are fairly well balanced. Most people yelling "their op!" are only looking at the individual 'stats' of the weapons (and their only lookinig at the 'damage' stat), Vary few are looking at the 'whole picture', such as AMS's vs Clan LRM's.

I apologize I missed you mentioning the range. I'm curious as to how many more missiles an ams takes out of a clan lrm. For an IS its 5

[Gwydion Ward]

RangerGee412, on 06 August 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I apologize I missed you mentioning the range. I'm curious as to how many more missiles an ams takes out of a clan lrm. For an IS its 5

That im not 100% sure on. I just know it was mentioned over and over again that part of the reason why they made Clan LRM's fire in streams, rather than 'clusters' was to give it an added 'penalty' of sorts, by making it easier to shoot them down with AMS.

Im not even sure just how to 'test' it to see how many are shot down in order to get hard-numbers. But i know its more than what IS missile 'bunches' are shot down.

*quick edit*

And no apology needed =) was just clarifying what i meant.

Edited by Rhapsody Repine, 06 August 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Sandpit]

lol I got called everything but a nice young man tonight in a game for suggesting it was better to use teamwork than go all rambo.

[Mcgral18]

The next test is opt in/using private matches, so we should get much better quality of pilots.

It should be interesting.

[El Bandito]

Rhapsody Repine, on 06 August 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Most people yelling "their op!" are only looking at the individual 'stats' of the weapons (and their only lookinig at the 'damage' stat), Vary few are looking at the 'whole picture', such as AMS's vs Clan LRM's.

If you want the whole picture, you should include the fact that Clan launcher costs half the weight of IS ones, and even a Light mech such as the Adder can pack dual LRM20s.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

If you want the whole picture, you should include the fact that Clan launcher costs half the weight, and even a Light mech such as the Adder can pack Dual LRM20s.

And that a pair of AMS will destroy a full 30 cLRM barrage...at least an isLRM20 will get past that.