692 replies to this topic

[Sable Phoenix]

ELO is meaningless in a team game. ELO was developed for chess. One player versus one player with a totally even, homogeneous set of pieces to play on. There is zero applicability for a team-based game with the overwhelming variety of potential factors brought into play by the huge variability of chassis with their hardpoint layouts and potential equipment and weapon combinations.

You still constantly see 12 - 1 facerolls in both group and solo drops. If ELO actually worked, such games would be the rarity rather than the norm.

Clans and IS will never be balanced, whether their fighting with or against each other, unless the game uses Battle Value numbers instead of ELO numbers. BV was developed by FASA for a reason.

[Noth]

Sable Phoenix, on 08 August 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

Clans and IS will never be balanced, whether their fighting with or against each other, unless the game uses Battle Value numbers instead of ELO numbers. BV was developed by FASA for a reason.

BV doesn't even balance it. There is a reason they made BV version 2 and are working on a version 3.

[pulupulu]

Thunder Child, on 08 August 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

My Money would have been on PPC's and Gauss in general, with CERLL picking up slack for the Clanners, and A/C 5's being the filler for IS. Though IS may have pulled some numbers with LRMs too.

For IS side, I feel LRM actually might pull ahead of ppc and gauss in term of damage. Though I bet majority of the kills are from ppc and gauss.

Personally, I had a few matches that were close, and mostly because of kiting and letting clan come to us to be showered by LRM + scout. Unfortunately we still lost. Those TW... too damn fast and agile.

[Thunder Child]

Chagatay, on 08 August 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

I disagree, freeplayers are absolutely vital to F2P titles just like in the ocean's ecosystem. Without them, you are done as the plankton is how you get the whales. No plankton, no whales*. They have every right to complain.

Terminology:
* Sunlight/algae (the game)
* Plankton (vast free player population enjoys the sunlight/algae, attracts whales)
* Whale (eats plankton with pay2win items, top of food chain)

You both make valid points though. F2P'ers SHOULD get a fair say in Game Balance. But as Kyle pointed out, they shouldn't demand immediate free access to Premium Content. Otherwise, why buy into the game. Sure, some will do it out of a love for the franchise, but most that put down money have done it for the advantage (real or perceived) that they get from a Premium product. Is it P2W? In this case, with some of the Clan Mechs being as powerful as they are, yes. In the case of Project Phoenix? Hell No.

[Noth]

pulupulu, on 08 August 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

For IS side, I feel LRM actually might pull ahead of ppc and gauss in term of damage.

And since this was done in PUGs where LRMs are typically more effective, that is entirely possible.

[Kyle Wright]

Chagatay, on 08 August 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

I disagree, freeplayers are absolutely vital to F2P titles just like in the ocean's ecosystem. Without them, you are done as the plankton is how you get the whales. No plankton, no whales*. They have every right to complain.

Terminology:
* Sunlight (the game)
* Plankton (vast free player population enjoys the sunlight, attracts whales)
* Whale (eats plankton with pay2win items, top of food chain)

Please tell me then aside from paint, como schemes that only work for 1 chassis, and lame cockpit items. What is there left for PGI to make money off other then Premium time? If clans and hero mechs are released for cbills instant you take away a major cash cow. Compare that to a algae bloom in which case it kills majority of small marine life do to sacking out the oxygen or poisoning, followed by bigger marine life eating the toxic dead marine life and becomes dead. You think PGI would currently make as much money as they did with clans on premium time if they did a cbill release instantly? It's a pay wall yes. But these items are temporary for real life money so those who need it now can pay extra (similar to paying extra money to board Southwest Airlines flights first for better seating) or you wait till your number is called.

Edited by Kyle Wright, 08 August 2014 - 01:01 AM.

[Ertur]

So, basically, clan mechs should just be IS mechs with different names.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Sable Phoenix, on 08 August 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

You still constantly see 12 - 1 facerolls in both group and solo drops. If ELO actually worked, such games would be the rarity rather than the norm.

All that proves is that a mistake was made and one team capitalized on said mistake. You can't make arguments based on Elo because you don't even know what people's Elo scores are. You don't have any information whatsoever to talk about Elo being a factor in a match because you don't know which members in the team have high/low Elo. All you have are damage numbers.

It's clear people are making the same arguments regarding Elo because it's the last "boogeyman" to latch on to. I understand blaming it all on Elo makes things "fit" into your perspective, but to quote an earlier post of mine:

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 07 August 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

Why don't you look at it from a broader perspective instead of viewing it through the narrow scope of "pilot skill".

Why would so many IS Mechs fail to do much damage?

• Maybe the IS Mechs weren't able to respond with their own effective damage because the Clan Tech allows for 60%-75% greater effective range.
  
• Maybe the IS Mechs weren't able to get close because they're getting one of their Side Torso's getting blown off or getting Legged at 600+ meters.
  
• Maybe their aim is being thrown off due to the constant impulse shake from CAC's, no-min CLRMS.

Keep ignoring what PGI said though...

*cough*

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 08 August 2014 - 01:39 AM.

[Thunder Child]

I think the issue here Kyle, is not the Paywall itself. It's the Paywall to the Madcat. EVEN if the Madcat had been Terribru, people would have bitched about any delay. The fact that IT and the Stormcrow are the two best mechs in their weight class, is just salt in the wound. I also believe a lot of Nerf Calls for the Direwhale will disappear once it hits public market. People will claim it has been stealth nerfed or whatever, but it really DOES handle like a BLR-1G with an XL 250.

[Noth]

Thunder Child, on 08 August 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I think the issue here Kyle, is not the Paywall itself. It's the Paywall to the Madcat. EVEN if the Madcat had been Terribru, people would have bitched about any delay. The fact that IT and the Stormcrow are the two best mechs in their weight class, is just salt in the wound. I also believe a lot of Nerf Calls for the Direwhale will disappear once it hits public market. People will claim it has been stealth nerfed or whatever, but it really DOES handle like a BLR-1G with an XL 250.

Stormcrow is debatable as it's weapon locations are pretty bad and it lacks jump jets.

As far as the timber goes, it probably needed some nerfing but something always has to be the best and as long as a clan mech is considered the best it will be complained about even if it is no more powerful than what we saw between the IS mechs and the best of those in the weight class.

[Ed Trend]

Hello guys ,

Yeah well , this result was obvious to some of us , even after the first week of the clan invasion . The only reason that held the clans back for a bit was the overheating problems they incounter as their new machines hadnt complete their skill tree's yet . As time passed , this problem fixed , and so clans shown their true colors . So far , TW/DW/STC/WHK's are well mastered by most claners , and soon nova , kitfox and adder which are not lights by the IS sense , but mostly weight dowgraded mediums built to escort and not to recon , will also be mastered and so IS will be in even more trouble than we are even now.
That said many times already in other posts ,so i would like to mention something else , which , as far as i know , no one mentioned before . Clan mechs are far superior in almost every aspect , but thats not all that brings IS in disadvandage . Its also IS mechs shapes. The crashing majority are humanoids , "cousins" to Atlas sharing the same issues , even the mediums . Too broad and tall to perform sneak and ambush tactics , with most of their weapons in the torso near hips and lower on the hands , they have to expose themselfs completely to get a clear shot . That means devestating return fire which in most cases cause instant core , and if its not instant , well its within 2 secs , far before IS mechs have the opportunity to back off behind cover.
Also , some players already noticed that clan mechs have similar or close enough speeds (with the exception of the direwolf) , which allows em to move and perform like a single coherend unit , in contradiction with IS mechs which the operate in full spectrum of speeds between 48 to 170 kps . I am sure you all notice how easily IS lines are spread thin in maps in the first 2 mins .
Given the fact that PGI , while they saw the mediums class size problem , they cant do anything about it , i strongly recomend that we should get new mechs , especialy mediums and heavies . , which should not be humanoid . The vindicator which PGI is proposing its just another "cousin" and nothing more . Instead , we should get the "Bushwacker" , the "Champion" , the "Marauder" and probably the light "Firefly" .
Imho , the Bushwacker can deal with kitfoxes and adders due to its speed and manuvrability, the Champion can deal with stormcrow and nova's for the same reasons, and the Marauder can deal with Timbers and warhawks due to its firepower .

I am proposing the above , cuz , despite the fact that clan mechs are far superior to IS mechs , nerfing things is never a good solution . PGI , has already added too many variables to the game , and thus , to try balancing something over by nerfing , will only unbalance something else , causing even more problems.
Also , what i am proposing , will balance things temporarely , and this will buy PGI time , in order for them to try and fix those issues the humanoid mechs carrently have .

I believe its a simple enough solution...

Ty for your attention.

[Voidcrafter]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 01:10 AM, said:

Stormcrow is debatable as it's weapon locations are pretty bad and it lacks jump jets.

As far as the timber goes, it probably needed some nerfing but something always has to be the best and as long as a clan mech is considered the best it will be complained about even if it is no more powerful than what we saw between the IS mechs and the best of those in the weight class.

Stormcrow could be excellent brawler - the punishment it delivers is really surprising for a medium - probably it's the only medium I recognize as capable of something aside of "support brawl" when it comes to face-to-face.
It's all a matter of what your doing with your toys

Also:
I'm out of this topic - do what you will, nerfed or not - one that doesn't want to see reason aside from his own point of view is one I should not argue with.
In my opinion that one should play with the clan mechs a bit and then start to flame and sheet - but oh well.
Good luck with the debate.

[Kyle Wright]

Majority of Clan mechs are balanced or sub-par. However the Timberwolf is the most iconic clan mech there is for most. When you face clan mechs you can almost guarantee there are several on that side. (I've seen 6 before) So it's a given we were gonna see a lot of them. To top it off however it simply does everything better then any IS rival. Between it's speed, hit boxes, clan Xl engine, vast hard points, and low weight clan weapons there isn't anything in a heavy weight class for IS that comes close ton for ton.

[Thunder Child]

The problem with both of them, is that they can be configured for practically ANY Build that is deemed powerful at the time, and they are both INCREDIBLY fast. The SCR clocks in at what, 106kph? The TBR at 89. They can both tote Meta, Missile-Spam, Laser Spam, whatever is going strong at the time, and are both fast and maneuverable to boot. The only thing I fear more than either of those is an IS Meta-build.

[Kyle Wright]

Thunder Child, on 08 August 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:

The problem with both of them, is that they can be configured for practically ANY Build that is deemed powerful at the time, and they are both INCREDIBLY fast. The SCR clocks in at what, 106kph? The TBR at 89. They can both tote Meta, Missile-Spam, Laser Spam, whatever is going strong at the time, and are both fast and maneuverable to boot. The only thing I fear more than either of those is an IS Meta-build.

why fear IS META builds as most of them run IS Xl engines. Factor in a meta Timber out runs a Dragons layer and Cataphract 3D with the same build by 15 kph or more while still being able to lose a side torso.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Voidcrafter, on 08 August 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

Also:
I'm out of this topic - do what you will, nerfed or not - one that doesn't want to see reason aside from his own point of view is one I should not argue with.

Trying to maintain a position when everything points to you being wrong is pretty difficult. Facts always win not just "because", but by the virtue of being true.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 08 August 2014 - 01:32 AM.

[Utilyan]

Kyle Wright, on 08 August 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

I concede the field of battle to you good sir. Lol. I didn't pay to win or lose I paid money because I simply couldn't wait. I absolutely agree though about the the temp P2W. And it simply comes down to them needing to make money even if someone else isn't willing to buy. And I've also seen far to many people arguing for we want it right now and they have yet to put a dime into this game. It's like complaining about whose president when you didn't even go out and vote. If you are not contributing to the continuation of this title then you simply can't use the P2W argument. No such thing as a free lunch sort of deal we have. Now if you just bought a mech for MC or some premium time then by all means complain away.

Theres a old saying "Time is Money". If you can get 20 million "free" players to play this, MWO would prob pay you alot for pulling it off. If it didn't contribute they would not take this model at all. When you got a free player playing they are "making". They are paying time. Look I got razer dice in my mech its advertisment.....bought a razer mouse bit ago maybe there was influence. Theres a word of mouth factor. Simply if I can get millions of people to play my game of tic-tac-toe for absolutely free.....I will be absolutely rich.

See the free lunch works both ways. If you had like 20 million "no pay" players on right now, It might seem like they do nothing but the reality is Community warfare would be finished in like a week.

[IraqiWalker]

John1352, on 07 August 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

Question: Why do players get less than 200 damage?
Answer: They were killed before they were able to do 200 damage.

Why: Clans have superior weapons, heatsinks, engines, endo steel, ferro fibrous and AMS.

Not really. It's mostly that a massive majority of the players like to engage clans in long range poke-fests, because no one can get it through their skull that long range is where clans win.



Look, it's very simple:

Most players still refuse to acknowledge the existence of AMS or cover, and instead would rather charge at each other. Clan mechs like that style of play, and so, you end up with the number one strategy employed by the massive majority rewarding clan mechs, and so you end up with more clan victories.


We've always said that in PuG play clans have a big impact, however, in coordinated play clans are balanced against IS. The fact that a team game has to be balanced around playing solo is idiotic on a cosmic level.

[Lily from animove]

Wolfways, on 07 August 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

Lady pillows?

you mean those waifu pillows?

[Thunder Child]

Sorry, let me rephrase that Kyle. Meta in general scares me, because of it's ability to shred a mech rapidly at long range. I say IS Meta, because they have More Mechs able to run it effectively. That said, the PogoWolf really pisses me off.

As to your comment Utilyan, I.... don't get it.... How can 2 million players who DON'T PAY ANYTHING, fund CW. Fair enough, if they all paid $1 each, that'd be 2 Mill for CW funding. And I do believe that if MWO was cheaper, they'd probably have more money coming in. Assuming they could improve the new player experience to make it friendly enough to retain the new players.
But, if they had 2 Million Free to Play players, and no one paying anything, the game would die. Unless they could convince companies to pay for adverts. Personally, I think the Awesome would make a perfect walking billboard. Players could all be given a free Awesome on account creation, with a choice of advert.