692 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Sug, on 08 August 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

The way they're using Elo is laughable.

The devs have explained how Elo scores and the matchmaker work many times. The only thing we don't know is what our scores are.

Any time ELO is used in a team based game it is questionable due to your ELO not depending on you alone thius odd things like good players getting stuck with low ELOs and bad players reaching ELOs they really shouldn't.

[Flapdrol]

My word, looks like clan mechs are overpowered, who would have thought?

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Sug, on 08 August 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

The devs have explained how Elo scores and the matchmaker work many times. The only thing we don't know is what our scores are.

All that means is that we have no basis to judge anyone's performance because the determining factor of a person's effectiveness is hidden to everyone.

Calling people "noobs" or "bads" because they score low damage in Clan v. IS matches is moronic and incredibly condescending. Thanks for letting everyone know you think you're hot sh*t.

PGI says the Elo variance should have made the Win/Loss percentage in the 60/40 range. Instead, it became a whopping 90/10 in favor of the Clans. Obviously it's because 90% of IS Mech pilots are "noobs" and "bads".

PGI said this:


Apparently you (plural) know more about the game than PGI with your assumptions.

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

Any time ELO is used in a team based game it is questionable due to your ELO not depending on you alone thius odd things like good players getting stuck with low ELOs and bad players reaching ELOs they really shouldn't.

Yeah, because Elo is wrong 90% of the time.

/facepalm

Wait. Is that your new argument? PGI's Elo/MM system is so bad that it doesn't work 90% of the time?

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 08 August 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Any time ELO is used in a team based game it is questionable due to your ELO not depending on you alone thius odd things like good players getting stuck with low ELOs and bad players reaching ELOs they really shouldn't.

Actually ELO can work in team games as long as an individual can carry the rest of their team. Because that individual will cause their team to win more often. In 8v8 this was possible, and ELO probably worked in 8v8. But in 12v12 its less possible, because one person matters less in 12v12.

[Utilyan]

Kyle Wright, on 08 August 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Just FYI they will eventually be out for cbills, though the release is slow as molasses. Right now it's pay for early access, someone has to fund the ******* habits of the dev and the gucci clothing of their wives and children. I bought the clan packs and I'd be pissed if they let them out way early cause then why spend real life money if all I needed was to wait a month or so and buy the ones I wanted for in game? Don't you think I could've spent the $190 on something better as I am a college student like beer?

I think what is trying to be conveyed is TODAY its pay to win. And I understand your point of view which I think its best summed up with the phrase "well I didn't pay to LOSE".


The statistics say, if you want a 90% chance to do better, get a clan mech. Can you get a clan mech without paying for it? no. That means Pay to Win.

"Well just wait till November for a fair fight" This will fly with some folks, not everyone. Even by the time you get there whats next? house specific mech weapon packages? P2W starts all over again.

[Mcgral18]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Yeah, because Elo is wrong 90% of the time.

/facepalm

Wait. Is that your new argument? PGI's Elo system is so bad that it doesn't work 90% of the time?

Seeing as Elo in MWO is the average of the team....yep, you can get some pretty bad matches.


90% of the time? Probably not. I'd give it 30% success, or 70% failure. Not all matches are roflstomps.

[Voidcrafter]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

...
Yeah, because Elo is wrong 90% of the time.
,,,
/facepalm

Speak with numbers - how right is your ELO? How high it is? How low?
What's your ELO bracket? What's other players ELO your playing with?
How does the MM deciede what teammates you "deserve"? And what oponents?
How many trial clan mechs have been seen in those games and how many trial IS?
Which one is most likely to pay that much for this game - a casual player or one that plays a lot?
Which one would lose? A trial IS or any sorts of Clan fully configured mech even not piloted by the named player?
How much choice do you have in terms of picking a cicada instead of picking a Shadowhawk/Wolverine for example?
What's the numbers of that option when considering the clans?

All the stats you're pasting for xxxxxxx time are based on those questions too btw.

[Sug]

Team Elo would mean something if the teams never changed.

[Thunder Child]

Ya know, I was gonna make some enlightened post about how good IS mechs can kill Clan mechs, and that the reason random PuG matches as an example are a bad idea is because there are SOOOOO many more Bad IS builds in play (3/4 of my IS mechs are works in progress, with only two Metas).
There was gonna be something about how, in my Dakkawhale, I get huge numbers, one or two kills, and die, but in my Firebrand, I get low numbers, three or four kills, and then die.
That with IS PPFLD I can happily take on any Non-Meta Clan mech and kick it's ass.
But at the end of the day, no-ones gonna listen, because as long as the Clan Tech is behind a Pay-Wall, people are gonna ***** about it. I'll be honest. I like my Direwhale. Is it better than an IS mech? Depends on what I am facing. LRM Boats or Brawler Atlas? Lol. A Metashee or Pogoslayer? Scares me shitless. Because he'll drop my whale and be looking for a new target before I can get any solid damage to stick. Hell, any ECM Light with LL, or one of those annoying **** MUTHERING SPIDERS..... Sorry... I hate those little ********, whether I'm Clan or not.
The point I am trying to make, is that PPFLD beats everything. Clan, IS, we are all equally edible. Yes, the Clan Tech needs some balancing. I personally believe the DoT time should be extended for ALL Clan Weapons. I also think we need some sort of shot distribution, movement sway on the crosshair perhaps, like Koniving has suggested. That alone would be a MAJOR nerf to Clan tech.

Edited by Thunder Child, 08 August 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I've tried to explain math to people about Elo and why it works a lot of times. At the end of the day it ends up coming down to some people really, really need it to be someones *fault* when they lose. Not theirs, of course. They always score 500+ without exception every single match and have never played a game without several kills. Most would, in fact, be in the top 1/10th of 1% of players if they were not perpetually sandbagged.

Which is ironic, because the people who are actually good players still have bad games now and again - they're just not ruled by them. They still put up crushing success regardless of who they play with, or against -

That's why they're good. They're not looking for who to blame for their mistakes, they already know. They learn from it, improve and move forward. They're looking for how to get better.

That, fundamentally, is what helps separate a winner from a loser. That also, fundamentally, is what Elo measures.

I'm about average. I work to improve - sometimes. Not a big motivator for me.

As to Clans... well, we knew they were OPed. I saw the nerf coming. The direction of the nerf to PPCs was a great choice - better than the wonky desync option and I'm pleased to see it. CERLLs needed a nerf but IMO it went the opposite direction it should have. Drop damage to a flat 10 (even 9 if need be), this *decreases* heat effectiveness and makes it essentially hotter, without eliminating it as a primary weapon choice (which the 2 second duration and making firing 2 CERLLs like firing 2 CERLLs and 1 CERPPC, which is forehead thumping absurd) but it seems that Clan mechs need to have a bunch of long range weapons that can ONLY be used if you're boating them, otherwise you need to boat shorter range ACs and CERMLs.

Ah well. We had diversity for a while. Now we get to see the surgical nerfing of variety to ensure that everyone has either A: a brawling build with MLs and SRMs and, if tonnage allows, ACs or B: a missile boat, point-blank SRMs *or* LRMs, C: A dedicated energy OR AC boat, or D: A PPC+AC mid-range build if you're IS.

You can have a reskinned variant of those basic builds. Attempt to mix them for synergy or variety and get DA NURF.

[Kyle Wright]

Utilyan, on 08 August 2014 - 12:26 AM, said:

I think what is trying to be conveyed is TODAY its pay to win. And I understand your point of view which I think its best summed up with the phrase "well I didn't pay to LOSE".


The statistics say, if you want a 90% chance to do better, get a clan mech. Can you get a clan mech without paying for it? no. That means Pay to Win.

"Well just wait till November for a fair fight" This will fly with some folks, not everyone. Even by the time you get there whats next? house specific mech weapon packages? P2W starts all over again.

I concede the field of battle to you good sir. Lol. I didn't pay to win or lose I paid money because I simply couldn't wait. I absolutely agree though about the the temp P2W. And it simply comes down to them needing to make money even if someone else isn't willing to buy. And I've also seen far to many people arguing for we want it right now and they have yet to put a dime into this game. It's like complaining about whose president when you didn't even go out and vote. If you are not contributing to the continuation of this title then you simply can't use the P2W argument. No such thing as a free lunch sort of deal we have. Now if you just bought a mech for MC or some premium time then by all means complain away.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Mcgral18, on 08 August 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Seeing as Elo in MWO is the average of the team....yep, you can get some pretty bad matches.


90% of the time? Probably not. I'd give it 30% success, or 70% failure. Not all matches are roflstomps.

So then, the way you consider Elo, wouldn't the ratio have been 70/30 Clans instead of 90/10? You're arguing against yourself. Either the Elo is off 90% of the time to explain for the Clan dominance or it works.

[Chagatay]

Khobai, on 08 August 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Actually ELO can work in team games as long as an individual can carry the rest of their team. Because that individual will cause their team to win more often. In 8v8 this was possible, and ELO probably worked in 8v8. But in 12v12 its less possible, because one person matters less in 12v12.

I firmly believe you have influence even in 12v12. It may not be enough to win the day as sometimes it is just not winnable. But I have played games where I know that I personally made the difference. Also I am sure I have played games where I lead my team like sheep to the slaughter. The whole elo thing works over a long, long series of games+. The only issue I have is that they allow the variance to be so damned big so as to create wonky games*.

+ power of Statistics
* price of match expediance I suppose.


As to the topic at hand....PGI will do whatever PGI wants to. 90% is a pretty telling number and they need to do something.

Edited by Chagatay, 08 August 2014 - 12:39 AM.

[pulupulu]

I honestly want to see which weapon did the most damage in these matches.

I have a feeling ac20/10 barely dealt any damage, and majority of the damage from clan were c-erll.

Edited by pulupulu, 08 August 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Voidcrafter, on 08 August 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

Speak with numbers - how right is your ELO? How high it is? How low?
What's your ELO bracket? What's other players ELO your playing with?
How does the MM deciede what teammates you "deserve"? And what oponents?
How many trial clan mechs have been seen in those games and how many trial IS?
Which one is most likely to pay that much for this game - a casual player or one that plays a lot?
Which one would lose? A trial IS or any sorts of Clan fully configured mech even not piloted by the named player?
How much choice do you have in terms of picking a cicada instead of picking a Shadowhawk/Wolverine for example?
What's the numbers of that option when considering the clans?

All the stats you're pasting for xxxxxxx time are based on those questions too btw.

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or what, but you know that Elo isn't available to check. You only have assumptions of where you are.

You're actually proving my point. You guys are making these statements under the assumption that Elo is the reason for the 90%/10% Clans win. PGI says those variables are pretty much accounted for.


I understand you believe you're right. Where is the evidence to support your opinion?

Everything PGI has released regarding the test shows you're wrong on every count. Where is my evidence? Right here:

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 08 August 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[Noth]

Khobai, on 08 August 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Actually ELO can work in team games as long as an individual can carry the rest of their team. Because that individual will cause their team to win more often. In 8v8 this was possible, and ELO probably worked in 8v8. But in 12v12 its less possible, because one person matters less in 12v12.

Very very few can carry like that. Typically the bigger the team, the less you can carry and the more you ELO depends on other people. 8v8 pushing it. In LoL where it is 5v5 it was still really easy to either get carried or end up stuck in ELO hell.

[Black Ivan]

Also great example how ELO miserably failes.

[Chagatay]

Kyle Wright, on 08 August 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

I concede the field of battle to you good sir. Lol. I didn't pay to win or lose I paid money because I simply couldn't wait. I absolutely agree though about the the temp P2W. And it simply comes down to them needing to make money even if someone else isn't willing to buy. And I've also seen far to many people arguing for we want it right now and they have yet to put a dime into this game. It's like complaining about whose president when you didn't even go out and vote. If you are not contributing to the continuation of this title then you simply can't use the P2W argument. No such thing as a free lunch sort of deal we have. Now if you just bought a mech for MC or some premium time then by all means complain away.

I disagree, freeplayers are absolutely vital to F2P titles just like in the ocean's ecosystem. Without them, you are done as the plankton is how you get the whales. No plankton, no whales*. They have every right to complain.

Terminology:
* Sunlight (the game)
* Plankton (vast free player population enjoys the sunlight, attracts whales)
* Whale (eats plankton with pay2win items, top of food chain)

Edited by Chagatay, 08 August 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Thunder Child]

pulupulu, on 08 August 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

I honestly want to see which weapon did the most damage in these matches.

I have a feeling ac20/10 barely dealt any damage, and majority of the damage from clan were c-erll.

My Money would have been on PPC's and Gauss in general, with CERLL picking up slack for the Clanners, and A/C 5's being the filler for IS. Though IS may have pulled some numbers with LRMs too.

[Khobai]

Quote

I honestly want to see which weapon did the most damage in these matches.

Based on whats being nerfed. I think its safe to say it was PPCs, CERPPCs, and CERLLs.