692 replies to this topic

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Most people are arguing that the testing methods were bad, not that the Clans are or aren't overpowered. Do you not understand that?

Just because I don't agree with your assumptions doesn't mean I don't understand them.

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 09 August 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Just because I don't agree with your assumptions doesn't mean I don't understand them.

Good lord, can you just go back to not posting? Or go back to your main account?

[Wolfways]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 August 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

I saw the behavior that Mickey described zero times.

I didn't even know there was a test going on until i came to the forums to see if i could find out why whole lances on my teams (PUG's) were suiciding by just running straight at the enemy.

[Lefty Lucy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Have you been reading yourself on the boards lately? My posting style has been the same throughout. I'm a PGI hater, who doesn't take anything they do at face value.

You on the other hand have moved all the way to taking this test as gospel. It's sad.

Quotes? I tend to spend my time pointing out factual inaccuracies in people's posting. However, if we accept the two statistics that they gave us, a 90% win rate with a fairly inconsequential Elo difference, while these other factors may come into play they likely had a large enough sample size to pretty conclusively say that the Clans are indeed OP in the solo queue at least.

My own observations in group/comp play is that many players prefer to bring timber wolves and direwolves (granted many still use Dragonslayers, another mech locked behind a pay wall) in the heavy and assault slots, which would seem to indicate that they're OP in group play as well, however with the *big* caveat that in actual matches and scrims we've had an agreement with our opponents to use no clan tech or strikes. I've been sticking to lights in group play since returning to the game because it's the one slot I can play without gimping my team by bringing inferior tech.

While this kind of test does have flaws, they don't invalidate the statistics due to how mathematics works. While this test may not conclusively say that Clan tech is OP, it is a really big arrow pointing in that direction.

Wolfways, on 09 August 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I didn't even know there was a test going on until i came to the forums to see if i could find out why whole lances on my teams (PUG's) were suiciding by just running straight at the enemy.

Yeah, but that's normal PUG behavior regardless.

[Mcgral18]

Phaeric Cyrh, on 09 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

That screen shot proves that the IS players were conspiring to throw matches? Interesting...

This proves that some players did indeed TK, and suicide.

Not all, since it's 1 of 84 players confirmed in my case. But some.

You can't say it didn't happen, because obviously it did.



Now, do you agree with this testing? With no controllable variables?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Wolfways, on 09 August 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I didn't even know there was a test going on until i came to the forums to see if i could find out why whole lances on my teams (PUG's) were suiciding by just running straight at the enemy.

In the end, it doesn't matter.

Even if people were trying to influence the test results by suicide, the test was so poorly set-up, that it was NEVER going to yield any sort of proper results.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Good lord, can you just go back to not posting? Or go back to your main account?

No.

Sorry not everyone is going to agree with you.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 August 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

While this kind of test does have flaws, they don't invalidate the statistics due to how mathematics works. While this test may not conclusively say that Clan tech is OP, it is a really big arrow pointing in that direction.

Just lol, LOL.

I'm done. I can't even deal with the rampant GENIUS syndrome these boards have.

And I love that NOW of all times, people are taking the statistics PGI release to be true.

Amazing.

Not only are you a dude with a girl's name, you are a giant freaking hypocrite.

Oh and also Lucy, please go back and remove the "Like" you made on my post, you are part of the stupid I was referring too, and I'd really rather not have your name being associated with mine in that way. Thanks.

[Wolfways]

Lefty Lucy, on 09 August 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yeah, but that's normal PUG behavior regardless.

If it was i wouldn't have come to the forums to look for anything unusual. I'm not saying it had anything to do with the test, just that some people were throwing matches.

[Wolfways]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

In the end, it doesn't matter.

Even if people were trying to influence the test results by suicide, the test was so poorly set-up, that it was NEVER going to yield any sort of proper results.

I don't actually believe any tests had an impact on PGI's decision to nerf clans. They have and they will continue to nerf them because people whine on the forums about it.

[Lefty Lucy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Just lol, LOL.

I'm done. I can't even deal with the rampant GENIUS syndrome these boards have.

And I love that NOW of all times, people are taking the statistics PGI release to be true.

Amazing.

Not only are you a dude with a girl's name, you are a giant freaking hypocrite.

Oh and also Lucy, please go back and remove the "Like" you made on my post, you are part of the stupid I was referring too, and I'd really rather not have your name being associated with mine in that way. Thanks.

Nice ad-hominem, friend.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Wolfways, on 09 August 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I don't actually believe any tests had an impact on PGI's decision to nerf clans. They have and they will continue to nerf them because people whine on the forums about it.

Yeah, pretty much how PGI does things. But see the thing is, the tests created MORE whine.

That's the problem, they influenced the boards by releasing that terrible 90/10 number.

Oh well, it's been about a month since I've played, and CW sure as hell won't bring me back. So I guess I'm just going to spend my time telling PGI and anyone that supports the stupid crap they do are dumb.

Lefty Lucy, on 09 August 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Nice ad-hominem, friend.

Weren't you also the person who posted about being excited for the Locust when they announced the Phoenix Pack? I should go find that post.

Dear god.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 09 August 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Mcgral18, on 09 August 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

This proves that some players did indeed TK, and suicide.

Not all, since it's 1 of 84 players confirmed in my case. But some.

You can't say it didn't happen, because obviously it did.



Now, do you agree with this testing? With no controllable variables?

But you have no idea if this guy was intentionally throwing the match or not. I see this kind of thing all the time without Clan V IS testing. If he was trying to throw the match, wouldn't it make more sense to keep TK'ing team mates until he gets TK'd himself? Why just shoot a friendly a couple times and then run off?

Look, I have read this entire thread. I have read all the arguments concerning bad testing parameters and statistical averages. The fact of the matter is, none of you know what the testing parameters were, or how the data was extrapolated and interpreted. All of this is merely blind second guessing born out of distrust, arrogance and egoism.

When the clans were first released many of us noticed that they seemed to be a little overpowered. We looked at the stats for the weapons and the details of the clan chassis, and began arguing on here that ON PAPER it seemed to be that the clan tech was superior to IS tech in almost all ways.

We were met with the argument "Math on paper is not the same as a fluid combat environment". That the clans were indeed balanced and that things like face time due to DOT weapons would balance things out in the actual game play.

After the clan players began mastering their mechs and the disparity seemed to become more pronounced, and people still objected, we were met with "I kill clans just fine, we need Clan V IS to really see whether they are balanced or not".

Then C v IS tests happened and each time people flocked to this forum with tales and screenshots of complete clan ROFLSTOMPS. We were met with the response "Your experience is anecdotal, I played several games where the IS got their stuff together and whipped our butts!" (with no screenshots) and, "Clans are balanced, the IS just has all the noob pilots and everyone in a clan mech is UBER" and, "I want to see the numbers, I bet clan victories were not nearly as lopsided as all you IS crybabies want to make it out to be!".

Then PGI released the results, which not only confirm Clan OP, but with results so lopsided in favor of the clans that it really can't be disputed by anyone with a shred of objectivity. These results also showed that ELO in those matches were for the most part even, which should have dispelled the myth of Clan uber pilots thrashing IS terribads and we get "ELO is broken!", "PGI's testing is flawed (even though I have no idea how the test was actually executed or analyzed)", "I need ALL the numbers or I can't believe you!"..

"Clans R Balanced!!"

I know most of you have backed down some and are now admitting that some tweaking is needed, but mostly it's just a shifting of position to attempt to mitigate the disparity and argue that things aren't really as bad as the results would suggest.

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 09 August 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 09 August 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Yeah, pretty much how PGI does things. But see the thing is, the tests created MORE whine.

That's the problem, they influenced the boards by releasing that terrible 90/10 number.

Oh well, it's been about a month since I've played, and CW sure as hell won't bring me back. So I guess I'm just going to spend my time telling PGI and anyone that supports the stupid crap they do are dumb.



Weren't you also the person who posted about being excited for the Locust when they announced the Phoenix Pack? I should go find that post.

Dear god.

The 90/10 simply reflected the experiences of nearly everyone on the boards who actually played during the last test. While I understand that anecdotal evidence is nearly worthless, when the released statistic matches the anecdotal evidence there's no reason not to believe the statistic.

As a counter-point, when PGI claimed that double heat-sinks would create "three second jenners" anyone who could do a bit of arithmetic called bullshiz, because it's at complete odds with the math and people's experiences.

I might have been excited about the Locust from a "it's one of my favorite mechs in TT" point of view, but I always knew it would be trash in game due to the fact that bottom-of-weight-class mechs rarely bring anything of value to the field.

Anyways, you've done a whole lot of saying I'm wrong, but pretty much haven't actually shown me to be wrong with any evidence or reasoning to back it up.

[-Natural Selection-]

Funny. I have seen little from anyone arguing the effectiveness of clan mechs, only how the matches were playing out. The only butt hurt I smell around here is from the IS only players who want every inch of everything to validate their narrowed opinion of mechs have they not even played.

Personally I was pleased with some of the mech quirk ideas that were told to us on comms when grouping with a PGI employee the other night. Regarding limiting some of the builds allowed on certain clan mechs. Then we get crap like nerfing weapons a few days later.

So you want to nerf a mech because if can handle a better load out, but offer no suggestions other than nerf the mech or weapons. Just complaining in a silly circle of nothingness.

But you want the truth?? Yea, clans won 90% of the matches, and I only lost 1 out of 30 some matches. I brought nothing but troll builds, at LEAST 4 guys on each of my teams I had either played with/against/or seen in comps, was in just about every match with 2/3 guys on comms (launch same time on clan mechs and magically you get on same team).

But you people complaining are going to be complaining about something either way, so figured it would be fun to drag ya ass through the coals in the process.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

Mickey Knoxx, on 09 August 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Funny. I have seen little from anyone arguing the effectiveness of clan mechs, only how the matches were playing out. The only butt hurt I smell around here is from the IS only players who want every inch of everything to validate their narrowed opinion of mechs have they not even played.

Personally I was pleased with some of the mech quirk ideas that were told to us on comms when grouping with a PGI employee the other night. Regarding limiting some of the builds allowed on certain clan mechs. Then we get crap like nerfing weapons a few days later.

So you want to nerf a mech because if can handle a better load out, but offer no suggestions other than nerf the mech or weapons. Just complaining in a silly circle of nothingness.

But you want the truth?? Yea, clans won 90% of the matches, and I only lost 1 out of 30 some matches. I brought nothing but troll builds, at LEAST 4 guys on each of my teams I had either played with/against/or seen in comps, was in just about every match with 2/3 guys on comms (launch same time on clan mechs and magically you get on same team).

But you people complaining are going to be complaining about something either way, so figured it would be fun to drag ya ass through the coals in the process.

Sure.. Complaining just to complain... Right.

Nevermind the fact that I have never complained about anything in this game except clan tech.. Ever.

Also it's not like we have actual DATA supporting our position, while you have.... What exactly?

So who exactly is being closed minded here and staking a position simply out of ego?

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 09 August 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

I am going to have to put my own .02 into this after reading thru all this mess.

Obviously mwo clan-tech is not completely balanced yet and when you add up 12 slightly overpowered 'mechs you can get a very large snowballing effect. This is why there is a 90% win rate during testing yet they are not individually that OP.

While Clans do have a lot of hardwired aspects making them less marginally adjustable, I think there are some glaring issues.

• C/ERLL does half damage at 1335 meters
  
• C/ERPPC puts out 3.75 DPS or 2.5+1.25 DPS
  
• Clan LRMs are half weight/less crits yet they are nearly equal to the IS versions. (stream vs. swarm) 30 tubes can be added to a clan 'mech at the cost of only ~7 tons + ammo
  
• Clan XL engines, while hardwired, bring the high payload or speed yet are half as durable as a standard engine. This means all Clan 'mechs all have a full dead-side while any IS 'mech with an XL does not.
  
• not to mention numerous other differences/advantages which may or may not be offset by the hardwired aspects mwo clan-tech

[IraqiWalker]

Kin3ticX, on 09 August 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

• Clan LRMs are half weight/less crits yet they are nearly equal to the IS versions. (stream vs. swarm) 30 tubes can be added to a clan 'mech at the cost of only ~7 tons + ammo

Understand that I do not agree with everything you say 100%.

However, clan LRMs are pretty much useless. Of all the points to mention in favor of clans being OP, LRMs aren't really the one to use.

[Phaeric Cyrh]

IraqiWalker, on 09 August 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Understand that I do not agree with everything you say 100%.

However, clan LRMs are pretty much useless. Of all the points to mention in favor of clans being OP, LRMs aren't really the one to use.

Really? I have heard clan players say they are so light and take so few slots, that they throw them on almost as an afterthought, and that at close qrtrs the screenshake if nothing else is worth it.

Regardless, they are better than the IS equivalent. The stream style of launch is only affected by those with AMS (most players do not use AMS) and at their weight and slot reduction that is easily overcome by simply equipping more tubes. That is aside from the fact that the stream launching style cause WAY more cockpit/screen shake than the IS version.. When you are trying to brawl, and a clanner is constantly pelting you with LRM 5's it can be damn near impossible to get your shots off.

Edited by Phaeric Cyrh, 09 August 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

IraqiWalker, on 09 August 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Understand that I do not agree with everything you say 100%.

However, clan LRMs are pretty much useless. Of all the points to mention in favor of clans being OP, LRMs aren't really the one to use.

nevertheless, you can chime in with indirect fire support without hurting your direct fire capability compared to what you can do with IS-tech.