692 replies to this topic

[Hardac]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

If Clan XL engine side torso blows, half the engine heatsinks should go with it.

1/3 would be fair.

[FullMetalJackass]

NonCedo, on 07 August 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Now can we move on to the annoying mouse over sound in the mech lab, Russ, you need to fix that before karma seeks you out. I bet yours is able to be toggled off, come on...admit it.

You know there is an option to turn this off already.

[Willard Phule]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

Again, if you read that, I basically say that clan mechs are stronger. The entire reason for wanting more data is to get a better idea of by how much. There are many variables involved in each match in this game, we can't know how much those variable play a role without the data for it. The data likely would not magically make the clan mechs not appear more powerful than IS mechs, but simply help show by how much. In essence it gives a better picture of the balance issues occuring with the clans.

Until they can reproduce the results of the data they've gathered, all they're working with is a theory. There are FAR more variables involved in the data they gathered than just the weapons used. Considering the sloppy way the matchmaker operates, all they are working with is a theory. They cannot duplicate the results, which means the theory failed the scientific method.

The first clan/is test didn't end in 90/10 win for the clans. This second one did. Why were both tests so widely different? There were things implemented in this second test that didn't happen in the first. The first test did not have clan/clan matches but this second one did. So...any of the "wins" from a clan/clan match skew the hell out of the results. Of course the clans won that match...the IS wasn't even involved.

Other variables that drastically effect the results include, but are not limited to:

- Time of day the test was done. Different times are prime time in different parts of the world. Some regions rely on the meta more than others, other regions love their LRMs.

- The caliber of people on any given team. You CANNOT use Elo scores to represent any form of balance. New players are assigned a very low Elo during their first 25 matches and then given a score that is artifically inflated to put them in the mid-range afterward. By that simple mechanic, Elo does NOT represent the actual skill level of any given player.

- Speaking of new players, let's examine this just a bit. Trial Mechs, the ones that not only new players use but those that have just come out of their first 25 use as well, are all Inner Sphere mechs. There are no Clan Trials yet. That means that newer players automatically end up on the Inner Sphere team by default. The skill level of these players means that they cannot shoot without standing still and zooming in, thus narrowing their field of view and making them a stationary target. I saw that happen a LOT more with the Inner Sphere teams than I did with the clans. When half your team dies because they just stood there and took it, you're pretty much destined to lose the match.

Again, the data they gathered CANNOT BE REPLICATED and thus, is only a theory. It fails every test of the scientific method.

I won't even bother to explain how their analysis of the data and implementation of "balances" fails the test as well, it's irrelevant. They're using shoddy information to make stupid adjustments based on the whining of people that refuse to spend money until the game is put into "easy mode."

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Voidcrafter, on 08 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

whaaa?

Yo, refer to http://mwomercs.com/...43#entry3621243 and get back to me.

[El Bandito]

Hardac, on 08 August 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

1/3 would be fair.

No it won't. Many Clan mechs have additional hard wired heatsinks in them so the loss of mere 3 heatsinks will not affect them much. We need to let the Clanners suffer serious side effects when an XL blows. Half will get their attention, so I personally think that's where PGI should start.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 04:54 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Even with all the variables you can think of, Clan Mechs won 90% of the time. Have you taken statistic classes before? Do you understand just how significant a 90% success rate it?

THERE WERE CLAN VS CLAN MATCHES THIS TIME AROUND. OF COURSE THE CLANS WON, THE INNER SPHERE DIDN'T EVEN PARTICIPATE IN THOSE MATCHES. THAT, BY ITSELF, SKEWS THE DATA COLLECTED. DURING THE TIME I PLAYED DURING THE TEST, AT LEAST 40% OF THE MATCHES WERE CLAN ON CLAN.

HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY REPRESENT AN ACCURATE COLLECTION OF INFORMATION?

[Noth]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Even with all the variables you can think of, Clan Mechs won 90% of the time. Have you taken statistic classes before? Do you understand just how significant a 90% success rate it? You all cherry-pick possible weaknesses in IS Tech, but you never address the advantages Clan Tech provides and how it will affect the numbers. Why is that?

Science classes are offered through K-12 so nice attempt at Ad Hominem. Have you ever taken logic classes? They don't offer them as general courses so you would have to major in a field that required logic.

Again, I flat out said clan mechs are better, and that the extra data probably wouldn't make them magically not be better. What it would point out is how much other factors played into it giving a more accurate picture of the situation.

You are so stuck on thinking that I'm trying to prove that clan mechs are not stronger than IS mechs that you can't see that all I'm wanting at this point is a more accurate picture. A more accurate picture allows more accurate assessment of how things should be buffed and nerfed.

Also, yes I have taken logic classes, and in those classes they also emphasized taking in the whole picture and not just part of it which has literally been all I've been asking for in most of this thread.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 04:55 AM.

[Why Run]

Of course the data is bogus. They took the players who invested and likely spend the most time in this game and put them up against the casual crowd. WHAT THE HELL do you think would happen? The folks that run PGI aren't very intelligent, clearly. There are sensible solutions to everyone of the current issues, yet they always pick the worst. Why not test 10v12 BEFORE making balance changes to weapons. Nope, lets nerf all the weapons, then test 10v12. Idiots.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Willard Phule, on 08 August 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Again, the data they gathered CANNOT BE REPLICATED and thus, is only a theory. It fails every test of the scientific method.

Which is why the repeated the test a second time............ Only difference really between the two is that the second one was announced.

Willard Phule, on 08 August 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

I won't even bother to explain how their analysis of the data and implementation of "balances" fails the test as well, it's irrelevant. They're using shoddy information to make stupid adjustments based on the whining of people that refuse to spend money until the game is put into "easy mode."

Why not explain it? You brought it up to bolster your argument so it's entirely relevant. Stop making blanket statements and provide some evidence to what you're claiming.

[Kubernetes]

Hardac, on 08 August 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

Some Clan mechs are superior. The problem with weapon nerfs is that they also effect the mechs that aren't.

Oh, I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm just calling out the people who refuse to acknowledge reality. The Clans are SUPPOSED to superior. This is the BT universe.

The thing is, I don't see the imbalance as a problem because we're not forced to play solely Clan vs. IS. In mixed groups the IS mechs do just fine; my Jagers, Phracts, and Victors are still effective in the current game.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Also, yes I have taken logic classes.

Cool, but I'm going to assume what you said is false and that my belief you haven't taken logic classes is true.

Wait, what?

[CeeKay Boques]

Guys don't panic, I'm sure whatever changes PGI makes will be sweeping, homogenizing, and boring. Soon all Mechs will be different colored versions of the Victor, Jagermech, Hunchbacks and Jenner. You can rest assured that when there are virtually no differences between'mechs, Balance will be achieved, and the skill of the timing and placement your arty will finally be shown as the calling card of great Mechwarriors.

[Noth]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Cool, but I'm going to assume what you said is false and that my belief you haven't taken logic classes is true.

Wait, what?

Cool I'm going to assume you haven't taken basic science or statistic then. Here's a hint, that is not a logical way to go about trying to debate or convince someone.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Which is why the repeated the test a second time............ Only difference really between the two is that the second one was announced.

And the second test did NOT have anywhere near the same results as the first. That, all by itself, shows that whatever method they're using to gather data is faulty. If you cannot replicate a result, then your theory is wrong. You should have learned that in middle-school science.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Why not explain it? You brought it up to bolster your argument so it's entirely relevant. Stop making blanket statements and provide some evidence to what you're claiming.

Because, what's the point? If my data is faulty then any results I come up with will be faulty as well.

2+2= Banana. Because the telemetry says so. We have all sorts of data that supports this. We tested everything two times and although the first time, we came to the conclusion that 2+2= Artichoke, we're certain this time it's Banana.

[El Bandito]

Why Run, on 08 August 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Of course the data is bogus. They took the players who invested and likely spend the most time in this game and put them up against the casual crowd. WHAT THE HELL do you think would happen? The folks that run PGI aren't very intelligent, clearly. There are sensible solutions to everyone of the current issues, yet they always pick the worst. Why not test 10v12 BEFORE making balance changes to weapons. Nope, lets nerf all the weapons, then test 10v12. Idiots.

The notion of 10 v 12 is already dumb. No self respecting MP only FPS game does that due to immense balance issues. PGI simply needs to put more trade offs on Clan tech so people will actually play Clan mechs as a choice rather than to enjoy clearly superior tech over the opposition.

Kubernetes, on 08 August 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Oh, I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm just calling out the people who refuse to acknowledge reality. The Clans are SUPPOSED to superior. This is the BT universe. The thing is, I don't see the imbalance as a problem because we're not forced to play solely Clan vs. IS. In mixed groups the IS mechs do just fine; my Jagers, Phracts, and Victors are still effective in the current game.

Mixed queue is on its way out. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I were you.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 05:02 AM.

[Starbound]

Eh, if they nerf the CERLL too much I'm out of the clans. It already takes 2 seconds to do 11 damage with them, its VERY hard to keep the damage on a single location. The ACs are terribad compared to IS, its just going to re-reinforce the ppc/gauss meta... shame. Even if the numbers came back that the clans were overperforming, they should look at the metas and not the flex builds. Nerf the clan gauss with longer recharge or something, the ppcs already splash where the IS don't, just because I can disperse heat better doesn't mean that I'm OP in a nova. Tell the IS to stop having snipe wars with the clearly advantaged range clan weapons.

Clans were supposed to be a nightmare to the IS... they were pretty balanced. I'd rather get forced into stars vs. lances than see the clan chassis gimped anymore.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

Cool I'm going to assume you haven't taken basic science or statistic then. Here's a hint, that is not a logical way to go about trying to debate or convince someone.

woooooooooooosh~ Right over your head...

You can't even understand your own logic when presented to you in a single line.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 08 August 2014 - 04:59 AM.

[El Bandito]

Starbound, on 08 August 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

Eh, if they nerf the CERLL too much I'm out of the clans. It already takes 2 seconds to do 11 damage with them, its VERY hard to keep the damage on a single location.

1.5. And it is not that hard.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

The notion of 10 v 12 is already dumb. No self respecting MP only FPS game does that due to immense balance issues. PGI simply needed to put more trade off on Clan tech so people will actually play Clan mechs as a choice rather than Clan tech being superior.



Mixed queue is on its way out. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I were you.

10v12 is incredibly dumb. I don't think it would change the win-rate of Clans by that much because Clan Tech is just superior.

I've said it weeks ago and I'll say it again. Make the IS XL Engines like the Clan XL Engines and see what happens.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I keep looking at the screen shots posted.

JMans for instance. The Inner Sphere side just sucked most of the time. I mean terribly.

And the one match he posted where they did good...they didn't get stomped.

The one average match, they killed 6 Clan mechs.

That is normal to what I've seen in this game forever in the public queue.

In the end, I'm not saying the Clans are OP or not. But the methods with which PGI is testing this is BAD.

And the fact that they posted that 90%/10% information using a BAD method to collect the data is going to alienate customers.

We ALL know the matchmaker and ELO system are not amazing, and now people are using the fact that Russ said the ELO was close means that the matches were even?

Come on kids.

Lets do some proper testing, while controlling the environment to figure this out.