29 replies to this topic

[Cabal LV426]

Hello!
I have a suggestion about balance to Paul Innoye:
While you are going to reduce Clan ER PPC projectile speed from 1500 to 950 m/s, could you make 15 dmg applied in one location instead of scattered?

Edited by Cabal LV426, 08 August 2014 - 12:43 AM.

[Igor Kozyrev]

Nope. We need to add damage spread to IS PPC, not remove it from C PPC. 1-8-1 would be fine, I guess.

[tm10067]

True mechwarriors must use true weapons.

[Thunder Child]

We need less PP damage, not more. I would be quite happy for CER PPCs to be buffed up to 15, provided that being able to focus four of them on one spot is made MUCH harder.

[TyphonCh]

That would make it exactly the same as an IS ER-PPC. which would be utterly pointless.

[Draykin]

So, you want a weapon that was nerfed for good reason to be buffed to pure pinpoint damage, thereby making the weapon no longer unique and also be completely better than the IS ER PPC? How about no. It's fine the way it is.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Wrong direction of change.

cERPPC should do 9/3/3, ERPPC and PPC should do 6/2/2. The arcing mechanic is good, it just needs to be taken far enough.

[Wolfways]

Keep the spread damage and give the PPC's their speed back imo. PPC's are/were not OP.

[Cabal LV426]

PPC now are hard to aim in medium-long distance. If target moves - forget about to fire at once. Damage in the point is needed in this situation

[ImperialKnight]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 August 2014 - 08:35 PM, said:

Wrong direction of change.

cERPPC should do 9/3/3, ERPPC and PPC should do 6/2/2. The arcing mechanic is good, it just needs to be taken far enough.

agreed, PPCs should have more spread with 1500 speed. PPFLD is the problem, not projectile speed

[Fire and Salt]

The alleged intent of the PPC nerf was to desync the PPC/Gauss.

Well, you slowed down the PPC, which de-synced it alright, but you didnt give it anything back - so basically it was a stright up PPC nerf.




Solution:
Compare the accuracy percentage across all PPCs before and after the change.
(I say across all, because I expect that the CERPPC is statistically more accuate than the ISERPPC because hardcore MWO players are more likely to have purchased clan mechs than casual players. They definately both experienced the same nerf though, from 1500 -> 950ms)

Ex:
Before 50%
After: 40%

Reduce the heat proportionally to the decrease in accuracy. For this example:
ISERPPC: 15 -> 12
CERPPC: 15 -> 12
ISPPC: 10 -> 8

This brings the PPCs back to where they were before the nerf, but still keeps them completely de-synced from the gauss - which was the stated intention.



The only PPC that gets slightly shortchanged by this method is the regular ISPPC because it was nerfed to 850ms rather than 950ms.
To give it a little love, it would love to see the damage fade up from 0 at 75 meters to full at 90 meters, as opposed to doing 0 at 89 meters and 10 at 90 meters.

The behavior is quite bizarre, and unsatisfying in a multiplayer game with lag. Imagine 2 mechs moving towards each other at full speed. Player A fires his ISPPC at 91 meters away. By the time the player B gets the packet from the server that says, "hey PPC!" they are 88 meters apart.
So either:
A.) The PPC doesn't count, and player A is (rightfully) pissed.
B.) The PPC does count, and player B is (seemingly rightfully) pissed.

That buff would compensate for the 850m/s travel speed when compared to the 950 of the other PPCs.





...In actuality, the PPCs would probably still be slightly worse than they were before, because I suspect that even among the new, lower percentage accuracy, people are having the additional effect of hitting the wrong mech component more often...





But yea - I don't get why an alleged attempt to de-sync the gauss and PPC ended up turning into a straight up PPC nerf.

[Arctcwolf]

no real point in running C-ERPPC's anymore. heat/damage/space/range ratio is easily beaten by C-ER-LL, and damage/heat ratio is beaten by C-LPL.

simply removing and replacing ppc's on a warhawk prime with either ER-LL or C-LPL improves damage output and heat. PPC's, per cannon, were supposed to be devastating, and we have never really seen it so on their own, only when paired with gauss rifles.

Keep the speed, up the damage, improve damage spread as described above to (9/3/3) for C-ER-PPC, then it will act properly and be the king of energy weapons, as it should be, and always should have been.

[Hornviech]

Just for your information.
According to Battletech Rules the IS PPC is intend to do 10dmg and 10heat and the IS ERPPC is intend to do 10dmg 15heat.
The Clan ERPPC is intend to do 15dmg and 15heat.

So the Clan ERPPC was nerfed before the clans came.
So PGI buff the CLAN ERPPC to 15 damage! Like is supposed to be.

Edited by Hornviech, 31 December 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Hornviech, on 31 December 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

Just for your information.
According to Battletech Rules the IS PPC is intend to do 10dmg and 10heat and the IS ERPPC is intend to do 10dmg 15heat.
The Clan ERPPC is intend to do 15dmg and 15heat.

So the Clan ERPPC was nerfed before the clans came.
So PGI buff the CLAN ERPPC to 15 damage! Like is supposed to be.

As soon as you use TT values to justify a change in this game, given the clear understanding at this point that for balance's sake PGI is not using TT values purely at all, you lose all credibility.

I voted no to,this syuggested change and will continue to do so. Clan ERPPC do not need this kind of buff in their current state considering overall balance concerns.

[CutterWolf]

Here is the real problem with the Clan ERPPC, 90% of the time its not even doing the 10 points of pin point it suppose to be doing. That is the reason why you don't see Clan mechs running them. This is most likely do to the "spread damage" effect. Every time PGI has put a weapon in that does some kind of spread damage it never works the way its suppose too. We have tested it and time and time again it does not transfer damage. Here is just one example, a team mate and I walk up behind a Timber Wolf and get into 120 to 100 meters of him. He is standing still with his back to us not torso twisting or any kind of movement at all. (I guess he was too focused on shooting off his missiles) We both take aim on his rear CT, I'm running 4 Clan ERPPC's and my team mate is running 2 Clan ERPPC's and a Gauss rifle. We both fire on the rear CT firing our Clan ERPPCs one at a time. The target never moved during the entire time we were firing on him. When we were done we "should" have dealt 75 points of pin point damage and 30 points of splash for 105 points of damage. Well we did not since that Timber Wolf walked away with just a red rear CT core and yellow rear torsos. This happens too many times to count and is why you don't see Clan mechs running PPCs.
"If" PGI would look into this and correct the damage transfer for Clan ERPPCs you mite see them on the battle field again.......

Plain and simple, they don't need any kind of a buff, they just need to do proper damage transfer to make them worth carrying.

Edited by CutterWolf, 31 December 2014 - 03:44 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Lukoi Banacek, on 31 December 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

As soon as you use TT values to justify a change in this game, given the clear understanding at this point that for balance's sake PGI is not using TT values purely at all, you lose all credibility.

I voted no to,this syuggested change and will continue to do so. Clan ERPPC do not need this kind of buff in their current state considering overall balance concerns.

I disagree. The IS would still have a huge pinpoint damage advantage. This would just make the choice between C-LPL and C-ERPPC an actual choice.

I say this is a long overdue change.

Edited by Kain Thul, 31 December 2014 - 03:51 PM.

[Hornviech]

Lukoi Banacek, on 31 December 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

As soon as you use TT values to justify a change in this game, given the clear understanding at this point that for balance's sake PGI is not using TT values purely at all, you lose all credibility.

I voted no to,this syuggested change and will continue to do so. Clan ERPPC do not need this kind of buff in their current state considering overall balance concerns.

But why is it that the IS PPCs have Tabletop values?

The Clan PPC is suppsed to be stronger in the first place!

[Pariah Devalis]

I don't think I would favor straight 15 damage on the C-ERPPC. That might be a bit much. I could see 12.5 pinpoint, however, with no splash.

Considering Clan mechs only have the Gauss rifle and ERPPC as our long range, pinpoint weapon systems (vs, I donno, every Autocannon, Ultra-Autocannon, Gauss, PPC, and ERPPC, plus faster burning beams on the IS side), and do not have the tonnage to effectively boat anything - aside from ERMLas - outside of on the Direwolf.....

I want to say I would be happy with IS PPCs splashing as opposed to upping the pinpoint damage of Clan ERPPC, but that would do nothing to improve the common use of the Clan ERPPC, a weapon system that outside of very specific builds is better off replaced with either an LPLas or ERLLas.

A third option does exist, however, in simply reducing the heat of Clan ERPPC. Keep the same damage profile as current, but make them 13 or 14 heat instead of 15. Without an option for the cold firing Standard PPC, we have no choice but to take the extremely hot ERPPC. Meanwhile, the weapon system is supposed to be the primary Clan energy weapon system, outside of the ERMLas.

In its current state, either it does too little damage for the heat, or its damage is good but it is too hot to use (without putting so many tons of DHS in that you barely have room for medium lasers, let alone other weapon systems).

I believe it would be healthier for the game not to decrease the TTK which would happen if we did increase the damage output of the weapon, so perhaps a straight heat adjustment is a simple fix that could make it worth taking again.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 03 January 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[NeoGenesis For Answer]

Pariah Devalis, on 03 January 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

I don't think I would favor straight 15 damage on the C-ERPPC. That might be a bit much. I could see 12.5 pinpoint, however, with no splash.

Considering Clan mechs only have the Gauss rifle and ERPPC as our long range, pinpoint weapon systems (vs, I donno, every Autocannon, Ultra-Autocannon, Gauss, PPC, and ERPPC, plus faster burning beams on the IS side), and do not have the tonnage to effectively boat anything - aside from ERMLas - outside of on the Direwolf.....

I want to say I would be happy with IS PPCs splashing as opposed to upping the pinpoint damage of Clan ERPPC, but that would do nothing to improve the common use of the Clan ERPPC, a weapon system that outside of very specific builds is better off replaced with either an LPLas or ERLLas.

A third option does exist, however, in simply reducing the heat of Clan ERPPC. Keep the same damage profile as current, but make them 13 or 14 heat instead of 15. Without an option for the cold firing Standard PPC, we have no choice but to take the extremely hot ERPPC. Meanwhile, the weapon system is supposed to be the primary Clan energy weapon system, outside of the ERMLas.

In its current state, either it does too little damage for the heat, or its damage is good but it is to hot to use (without putting so many tons of DHS in that you barely have room for medium lasers, let alone other weapon systems).

I believe it would be healthier for the game not to decrease the TTK which would happen if we did increase the damage output of the weapon, so perhaps a straight heat adjustment is a simple fix that could make it worth taking again.

Reducing the heat to the point where its a viable weapon would be nice. I like that idea because we keep our weaker ppc for the trade of less heat because as it stands I dont see any successful ppc builds on the clan side. (the most I see is when people drop in their trial adder)

[Burktross]

Perhaps quiiiiiirks?
I'm looking at you, Adder! You little under-appreciated rascal you!