55 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Here's my criteria for a good weekend challenge:

• Relevant to lore and game setting. Not just "Halloween special" or something random. Use the rich Battletech setting to create a cool context. Inner sphere conflicts, Clan invasion, whatever. YES!
  
• Make the reward something useful that can only be bought for MC. Mechbays, camo patterns, camo colors. YES!
  
• Make it a skill-based achievement, not based on farming. Sadly, NO.

So PGI got 2 out of 3 right, which is far better than usual. It's been 0 out of 3 many times. Good job to Nico or whoever else is responsible. I'd definitely like to see more of this.

Let me explain why skill-based achievements are fun, and farming is boring and bad.

• Getting x amount of victories, kills, assists or component destructions in y number of matches requires virtually no skill at all, unless the bar is raised to an obscene level. Anyone can do it, if they invest enough time. That in itself makes it boring for the player, because you realize it's just a matter of time.
  
• Grinding achievements often result in bad gameplay, because people are willing to do anything to hasten the necessary grind. E.g. risk FF to get 20 kill steals as quickly as possible.
  
• Getting x amount of kills, component destructions, savior kills, damage, match score or base caps in a single match is much more dependent on skill. There's no easy way to fake 1000 dmg, 100 point match score or 6 kills in the public queue (private matches are different). This makes it fun, because you know you have to play well to do it. It's not just a matter of time.
  
• Any criteria you set for a challenge can be abused and lead to griefing, but some criteria are better than others.
  
• Grinding achievements may lead to more people playing, but it's pointless if it becomes a chore anyway. And there's no sense of accomplishment, except that you won a mechbay worth less than 3 dollars. A skill-based challenge gives a sense of accomplishments.

Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, but feel free to comment anyway.

[Jin Ma]

I think this test means they have faction designations for the mechs in game now.

[Deathlike]

Jin Ma, on 09 August 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think this test means they have faction designations for the mechs in game now.

I'm leaning towards a database backend for CW that handles that...

[Lyoto Machida]

Jin Ma, on 09 August 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think this test means they have faction designations for the mechs in game now.

Interesting observation...didn't think of that.

[KrazedOmega]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

• There's no easy way to fake 1000 dmg, 100 point match score or 6 kills in the public queue (private matches are different). This makes it fun, because you know you have to play well to do it. It's not just a matter of time.

I seriously doubt half of the public queue player base could even pull something like that off.

The forums would be full of people complaining of how difficult the challenge was.

It might make it more satisfying to have a purely skill based challenge, but it has to be something that's achievable by all players, even if it takes the whole weekend for them to get.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

This is a MMO after all. You expected PGI to think further outside the box than "go kill 10 rats"?

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Getting x amount of kills, component destructions, savior kills, damage, match score or base caps in a single match is much more dependent on skill. There's no easy way to fake 1000 dmg, 100 point match score or 6 kills in the public queue (private matches are different). This makes it fun, because you know you have to play well to do it. It's not just a matter of time.

Skill based? AHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I was just in a match with homelessbill where he was well over 1k damage where nobody on the rest of our team broke 300, and the other team 400. Needless to say he thought it was a joke he had to "carry" the pugs. You might think that's all "skill" but the little detail left out of this equation is that there were only 3 clan mechs in the entire match, and he was the only Direwolf. He just completely slaughtered IS mechs left and right because he was in a mech that is absurdly OP under the right conditions, and the stars aligned for him.

So, no... I cannot say it's entirely skill based. He was lucky he got placed into the match he did, in the mech he did. It was like an elephant in a wading pool. For a further opinion on "skill", see my signature below.

[Y E O N N E]

lockwoodx, on 09 August 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

This is a MMO after all. You expected PGI to think further outside the box than "go kill 10 rats"?

It's not an MMO. An MMO has huge numbers of players participating and interacting with each other simultaneously in a single in-game world. MWO is just a multiplayer shooter, one with even less features right now than, say, Halo 4.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 August 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

It's not an MMO. An MMO has huge numbers of players participating and interacting with each other simultaneously in a single in-game world. MWO is just a multiplayer shooter, one with even less features right now than, say, Halo 4.

Ah poor soul your ideology is quite dated. I use to subscribe to the same philosophy but since the inception of instancing companies have taken to bastardizing the term MMO for quite some time. I believe Guild Wars was the first major offender... MMO... PSSSHHHHH. MWO's mech bay is the same thing as towns were in the original guild wars. You customize your character/mech, form groups, chat, and run instances connected to "1000s" of players. To the industry these days, that is a MMO sadly.

[Alistair Winter]

KrazedOmega, on 09 August 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

[/list]I seriously doubt half of the public queue player base could even pull something like that off.
The forums would be full of people complaining of how difficult the challenge was.
It might make it more satisfying to have a purely skill based challenge, but it has to be something that's achievable by all players, even if it takes the whole weekend for them to get.

I just threw out some numbers. The point wasn't the numbers, but the difference between something that requires skill more than grinding.

lockwoodx, on 09 August 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Skill based? AHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I was just in a match with homelessbill where he was well over 1k damage where nobody on the rest of our team broke 300, and the other team 400. Needless to say he thought it was a joke he had to "carry" the pugs. You might think that's all "skill" but the little detail left out of this equation is that there were only 3 clan mechs in the entire match, and he was the only Direwolf. He just completely slaughtered IS mechs left and right because he was in a mech that is absurdly OP under the right conditions, and the stars aligned for him.
So, no... I cannot say it's entirely skill based. He was lucky he got placed into the match he did, in the mech he did. It was like an elephant in a wading pool. For a further opinion on "skill", see my signature below.

Meh. So what?

Luck and OP builds are a part of the deal no matter what criteria you set. What if I enter a Dire Whale and get 20 kills in 2 matches? The fact that it's possible isn't really relevant here. Hell, you could set the criteria as 20 wins, and I could just power down in every single match. Maybe I'd even get 20 straight wins right off the bat.

Do you think people are dropping in Locusts to get those 20 kills? No, people are dusting off their old Inner Sphere killing machines to get the job done quickly, if they're in a rush.

If you don't have any skill, you can probably play 100 matches without ever seeing 1000 dmg or 8 kills in a match. You need to be either a good player, or at least competent and lucky.

I personally think it's funny that some people pretend they could do 1500 dmg and get 10 kills in a match if they just had a Dire Wolf with gauss rifles. For every good DW pilot, I see at least two who don't know how to switch to first person view. For every Dire Wolf with more than 800 damage, I see at least three who got caught in a bad position and had their CT melted. You can talk all day about how easy it is for you or other veterans, but just look at the average player. They're not getting 1000 dmg very often.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 09 August 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[Koniks]

Jin Ma, on 09 August 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

I think this test means they have faction designations for the mechs in game now.

Maybe. It's also possible that they're just able to designate a list of mechs and then track use.

[Alistair Winter]

Mizeur, on 09 August 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

Maybe. It's also possible that they're just able to designate a list of mechs and then track use.

That seems very likely to me, given their overall lack of progress on CW.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

You can talk all day about how easy it is for you or other veterans, but just look at the average player. They're not getting 1000 dmg very often.

It doesn't happen often for skilled players either, due to competition over targets. Since he was the only dire whale in a mostly IS match... less competition and thus, easy pickens for the guy lucky to drop in that mech. Even the average player would have pulled 800+ in a whale under those conditions, and "Skill" accounts for very little true damage in this game. I'll agree it will earn you KBs based on where you can place your shots but overall, it's mostly luck.

edit: Group queue is a whole nother beast where teamwork/skill does trump luck. I'm talking about pugging tonight.

Edited by lockwoodx, 09 August 2014 - 06:25 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

lockwoodx, on 09 August 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

It doesn't happen often for skilled players either due to competition over targets. Since he was the only dire whale in a mostly Is match... less competition and thus, easy pickens. Even the average player would have pulled 800+. "Skill" accounts for very little true damage in this game.

Alright. Let's say you're right. The average player can do 800+ dmg, easy, if he's in the right match.

So raise the bar. What about 1000 damage? What about 1200? 1400? Is it just a matter of luck? Of course not. If you keep raising the bar, it becomes increasingly dependent on skill, and less likely to rely on luck. And in addition to damage, you can use any of the other criteria I suggested above.

A challenge that requires average skill would still be better than what we have now. What we have now requires no skill at all (and I mean that almost literally), it just requires time. A 5-year-old could probably complete the current challenge. What I'm suggesting would never be perfect, but it would be much, much better.

Of course, if you have an even better suggestion for a challenge, I'd be grateful to hear it.

[CheeseThief]

Quote

If you don't have any skill, you can probably play 100 matches without ever seeing 1000 dmg or 8 kills in a match. You need to be either a good player, or at least competent and lucky.

The problem I have with this is that it encourages sand papering rather than efficiency.

I consider myself sufficiently skilled as a pilot, but the only mech that I have gotten over 1000 damage with recently is a Ryoken loaded with CERMLs and SRMs. Drag the high damage lasers lasers over the target, then scatter missiles all over it, nothing efficient, nothing skillful, but it got me a big number and the high-damage-no-kills achievement.

The 'kill steal' event we just had, I used my vastly more efficient Hunchback 4G for the majority of it with my best result being 5 kills for 450 damage. I consider being able to repeatedly plant AC20 rounds on a single component to be vastly more skillful show than waving lasers and SRM's all over a target in an inefficient manner to make the 'I'm helping!' number go up.


If you want the ultimate in 'e-peen l33t skills' challenge, then it should probably be a cockpit kill challenge. It's either going to be the ultimate in flukes or skill, and automatically exempts 'skillless' weapons like Streaks and LRM's.

Wins? Can AFK for that.
Kills? Clearly the domain of kill stealers.
Damage? People with LRM's or who can't aim with lasers have this one in the bag!
Assists? You can get these by running into people.
Objective Captures? Standing in a square isn't skill!

Obviously the only true measure of skill is a 360noscope headshot contest.

Edited by CheeseThief, 09 August 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[Sandpit]

+1

that was the only "bad" thing about the event. Why would you make it a solo centric challenge in a team game instead of making it wins so the team is more concerned about winning the match than running off trying to get their kills and giving two sh*ts about winning?

[Alistair Winter]

CheeseThief, on 09 August 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

The problem I have with this is that it encourages sand papering rather than efficiency.
I consider myself sufficiently skilled as a pilot, but the only mech that I have gotten over 1000 damage with recently is a Ryoken loaded with CERMLs and SRMs. Drag the high damage lasers lasers over the target, then scatter missiles all over it, nothing efficient, nothing skillful, but it got me a big number and the high-damage-no-kills achievement.
The 'kill steal' event we just had, I used my vastly more efficient Hunchback 4G for the majority of it with my best result being 5 kills for 450 damage. I consider being able to repeatedly plant AC20 rounds on a single component to be vastly more skillful show than waving lasers and SRM's all over a target in an inefficient manner to make the 'I'm helping!' number go up.

That's not a problem, as I see it. Every challenge doesn't have to be an accurate assessment of how good a player you are. No matter what the criteria are, they're not going take everything into account. They're not going to measure your abilities as a teamplayer, as a commander or whatever else.

It's never going to be a complete, comprehensive measure of skill.

It's just a challenge, which should be somewhat difficult. Like if you tell your friends "Let's see who can jump up ten steps on these stairs in a single leap." That challenge wouldn't determine who's the best jumper. Maybe one guy has a better altitude jump, the other can jump longer, and a third guy has longer consecutive jumps over time. It's just a fun challenge. Saying "let's see who can walk these stairs ten times by the end of this weekend" is not a fun challenge. Anyone who has a bit of time can do that.

There's no reliable method of determining the best player, or even the good players, outside a completely symmetrical competition that takes away all variables except each player's performance. Like a Solaris 1 vs 1 tournament. But that's not what this challenge is about.

[Mcgral18]

lockwoodx, on 09 August 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

It doesn't happen often for skilled players either, due to competition over targets. Since he was the only dire whale in a mostly IS match... less competition and thus, easy pickens for the guy lucky to drop in that mech. Even the average player would have pulled 800+ in a whale under those conditions, and "Skill" accounts for very little true damage in this game. I'll agree it will earn you KBs based on where you can place your shots but overall, it's mostly luck.

edit: Group queue is a whole nother beast where teamwork/skill does trump luck. I'm talking about pugging tonight.

Yes, but while pugging you'll also find groups which allow you to get 1400 damage with IS Pulse Lasers.


The PUG life is a pretty bad place to call things OP. Look at Lurms.

[Alistair Winter]

Sandpit, on 09 August 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

+1
that was the only "bad" thing about the event. Why would you make it a solo centric challenge in a team game instead of making it wins so the team is more concerned about winning the match than running off trying to get their kills and giving two sh*ts about winning?

I think the only way to make a challenge based on winning, would be to do a tournament with teams. Like I said above, if I just drop in 100 matches and power down in every single match, I will still probably win 40 of those 100 matches. Maybe even more if I'm dropping in a light mech, because those often have very little impact on the match, compared to assault mechs. Especially in the underhive.

The only thing I can think of that would be skill-based and still rely on winning, would be something like 10 consecutive wins. Because that's not likely to happen if you're a terrible player. It's certainly possible, but it's unlikely. The problem with a challenge like that, is that there's so much luck involved in the underhive. All it takes is a single team of bads to ruin your win streak.

[Alistair Winter]

CheeseThief, on 09 August 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

Kills? Clearly the domain of kill stealers.
Damage? People with LRM's or who can't aim with lasers have this one in the bag!
Assists? You can get these by running into people.
Objective Captures? Standing in a square isn't skill!

Obviously the only true measure of skill is a 360noscope headshot contest.

Made me LOL.

Again though, how many LRM boats do you see in any given underhive match? Probably 2 on each team, at average. How many of these end up doing 1000 damage in any given match? I almost never see that. Maybe 2 or 3 matches in 100. And of those 2 or 3 players, do you really think they're complete noobs? I don't.

Kill stealing is a problem. But how easy is it really to killsteal your way to 10 kills? My KDR is the only damn thing I care about when I play this game, to be honest. I don't care about winning, because bad teams are gonna bad. I don't care about C-bills, because I have more than enough. I don't care about anything except getting the killing blow as often as possible, and dying as little as possible. I still don't get more than 6 kills very often. And that's not because I'm a bad player. It's just hard to steal 6+ kills in a single match.

Standing in a square isn't a skill, but to personally cap all 5 bases in a single Conquest match is something most people never do. I don't mean to just touch base, I mean to actually switch the alignment from red or neutral to blue. I'm not saying it's as hard as getting a Scout rifle 360 no scope headshot, I'm just saying that it's much harder than getting 20 kills in 48 hours.