35 replies to this topic

[Haxburch]

Khobai, on 10 August 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

wouldnt work because of the absurdly long queue times

theres so many madcats and direwolves out there

It works now with the Ligths and it will work then to . You just dont like it . But would be the best and much better then nerf Clans .

[Khobai]

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It works now with the Ligths and it will work then to

except it doesnt work with the lights

you dont get 3 lights every match

most of the time matchmaker takes so long to search it blows the release valve on 3/3/3/3 and then you end up with a bunch of heavies and assaults anyway

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 10 August 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

How matchmaker has existed this far without matching tonnages is beyond me, but its no wonder it doesnt work at all.

Cause 80 ton Victor or 95 ton Banshee can perform better or on par with a 100 ton Atlas. It is more about hardpoints and hitboxes, rather than weight. Matching classes is pretty much the best PGI can come up with.

Personally I want PGI to come up with their own BV MM system where a 3D is ranked higher than an Orion, for example, but it is too complicated for them.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 August 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[Alex Warden]

some people here are clearly exaggerating... i agree with the OP... 900m Mlasers, almost 2k range on larges is just plain out of whack... cutting the max range for AC´s was actually a good thing for the game, and i think tuning down the max range of clan lasers might be, too... no one was talkiing about making the weapons equal, just bring them in line with what is reasonable...

and again "respect lore"... can´t hear it anymore...i said it elsewhere already: in lore you had a few great heroes who could beat a whole army by pure luck and cinematic heroism... in lore you had alot of roleplay solution and you had the possibilty to bend the rules where ever needed to grant fun for your player group... none of this is achievable in a competitive online game... MWO´s fun depends on even playgrounds...

yea there should be a noticable difference between clan and IS, but sry, not to a level that makes clans plain superior

MWO isn´t Battletech... and honestly... if you bought a clan package to have a superior clanmech you should have been aware that PGI won´t let that happen... everyone knew they would hit the clans with the nerfgun, and if you look at the latest numbers, there is still alot work to do (yea, some clan assests even need some love i guess)...

Edited by Alex Warden, 10 August 2014 - 03:16 AM.

[That Dawg]

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WHAT IF CLAN WEAPONS HAD LESS MAX RANGE?

They would have sold less of them.
Nerf them now, those who laid out quite a bit of money for an add on to a free game would be pissed.

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everyone knew they would hit the clans with the nerfgun

No, I bet they didn't if you took a poll.
The second wave of buyers only saw a superior tool in a game.
I've seen this in other games, they release "gold" whatevers, sell them, then under community outrage nerfbat them. Too late, they got the money.
I'm sure the real outrage may come when the second wave of money mechs is released around christmas, and still no new maps or genuine work in the matchmaker.

Love the game, hope they fix a number of things.

[Alex Warden]

ThatDawg, on 10 August 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

They would have sold less of them.
Nerf them now, those who laid out quite a bit of money for an add on to a free game would be pissed.

like that never happened before... as i said above, everyone should have known they would get hammered after clan release... not a reason to let the clans shoot at ranges that are barely opposable...

Edited by Alex Warden, 10 August 2014 - 03:37 AM.

[Noesis]

@OP mathematically it makes sense. But if you homogenise the weapons to be like IS we lose any variance or distinguishing aspects with differing tactics or gameplay with Clan Tech as having a different flavour which I feel would be nice to retain.

Trades offs for range make sense to me, and keeps things in check with lore or BT precidents. So aslong as these things have a marriage by equivilancy to IS tech with how balance is applied I still see this as a useful objective to explore for the IS vs Clan debate.

Clans reputedley have range, better tech and use good aim with piloting skills, IS have mobility and numbers and economically better set for war. But some of those factors are simply not apparent when it comes down to an individual player choice or to avoid simply generating go to mechs. Hence why PGI are trying to balance the tech but distinguish things so its not just same old, same old.

[Noesis]

It is also worth pointing out that these objectives by PGI in how they might balance the tech and that they had this intention to do so (which are the current and ongoing WIP for balance) were indicated prior to the sales of the clan packages.

[General Taskeen]

Here are some examples of weapon stats from MW:LL (notice the small differences)

Clan ER Large Laser (692 Energy Damage) (900m Range) (176 Heat Per Shot) (10 Shots Per Minute)
IS ER Large Laser (555 Energy Damage) (800m Range) (114 Heat Per Shot) (10 Shots Per Minute)

Same beam duration/rate of fire, advantage Clan with slight damage and range increase, advantage IS in Heat

Clan Medium Pulse Laser (207 Energy Damage) (500m Range) (32 Heat Per Shot) (31 Shots Per Minute)
IS Medium Pulse Laser (178 Energy Damage) (400m Range) (23 Heat Per Shot) (31 Shots Per Minute)

same beam duration/rate of fire, advantage Clan with slightly better damage and range increase, advantage IS in heat

Clan ER Medium Laser (363 Damage) (700m Range) (75 Heat Per Shot) (13 Shots Per Minute)
IS Medium Laser (260 Damage) (500m Range) (39 Heat Per Shot) (13 Shots Per Minute)
IS ER Medium Laser (260 Damage) (600m Range) (46 Heat Per Shot) (13 Shots Per Minute)

Same differences as the others.

What they could do is lower max ranges to thesame range in MWO, while making only 100-200m effective range differences, while making beam duration/rate of fire the same.

[Khobai]

The only clan weapon that needs less range is the CERLL... and less range is how it SHOULD have been nerfed.

[Y E O N N E]

Clan lasers should always have a range advantage. They burn longer and have a higher heat value, it's only fair. That said, ER MLs are slightly absurd; 450 meters? That's greater than a 50% increase over the IS ML. The C-ERLL is ~25% more than the IS ER LL. The C-ERSL has 100% more range.

Scaling much? I would have much preferred a flat 25% to 33% increase across the board. It would make more sense to me.

All of that is academic, however. The real question is this: why did the IS ERLL get nerfed from 720 meters to 675? Why it wasn't reverted to its original value is a mystery that goes right alongside the questions of why IS ML are still 4 heat and why IS SL are still 2 even after the Clans have dropped.

[That Dawg]

Haxburch, on 10 August 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

I dont want more nerfs to CLANS , because from Lore CLANS are much better and deserve this .

right, I guess you bought a clan mech right?
so, you're in the dont nerf them crowd, but you were ok for the rest of the butchering of "lore" for IS during the last year?
pffft, reduce the clan mechs to match IS mechs. OR follow the lore to the T

come christmas when the second wave of 'better' clan mechs comes out, will you buy 'up', or demand the nerf the new ones?

[TamCoan]

Pjwned, on 09 August 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I'm not going to say it's a particularly great idea but what if part of the balancing in (some?) clan weapons is that they only had 1.5x max range instead of 2x max range?

For me honestly, I wouldn't care much, I would adjust. I've learned to play all of my mechs effectively against whatever enemy I am facing. I have no problem fighting clan with IS, IS with clan, clan with clan, IS with IS. However I do pilot them differently depending on the variable.

[VanillaG]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 August 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Clan lasers should always have a range advantage. They burn longer and have a higher heat value, it's only fair. That said, ER MLs are slightly absurd; 450 meters? That's greater than a 50% increase over the IS ML. The C-ERLL is ~25% more than the IS ER LL. The C-ERSL has 100% more range.

Scaling much? I would have much preferred a flat 25% to 33% increase across the board. It would make more sense to me.

All of that is academic, however. The real question is this: why did the IS ERLL get nerfed from 720 meters to 675? Why it wasn't reverted to its original value is a mystery that goes right alongside the questions of why IS ML are still 4 heat and why IS SL are still 2 even after the Clans have dropped.

You can't compare CERML to standard ISML because there will eventually be an ISERML. When you compare similar weapons, like the pulse lasers, they are fairly normalized in regards to range but have longer durations as compensation for changes in the other stats.

[Zypher]

Khobai, on 10 August 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

12v10 wont fix anything. It just means 2 less clan lights. But theyll still have 3 daishis and 3 madcats. And it will still be unbalanced.

you cant enforce 3/3/3/3 with 10 mechs either.

a better solution would be to have tonnage matching and make clan mechs count as being 10 tons heavier for purposes of matchmaking. it has the same effect of shorting them 2 mechs (120 tons).

Tonnage matching would also be more fair because a locust would no longer count as being equal to a jenner.

How matchmaker has existed this far without matching tonnages is beyond me, but its no wonder it doesnt work at all.

They could aways just make sure the each of the missing mechs account for 8.3% of the total tonnage which is the difference of 12:10. If that did't work they could tweak the ratio of the tonnage and or the ratio of mech numbers.

So yes, it could be done.

[Y E O N N E]

VanillaG, on 12 August 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

You can't compare CERML to standard ISML because there will eventually be an ISERML. When you compare similar weapons, like the pulse lasers, they are fairly normalized in regards to range but have longer durations as compensation for changes in the other stats.

450 meters on a medium laser is absurd all by itself, without comparison. A much more reasonable value would have been 360-400 meters. That leaves room for the IS ERML to be 315-340 meters or so, assuming MW:O survives long enough to make it to 3060. Still, the real focus of the post was how the range scaling is not constant from weight to weight, and how the IS ER LL was nerfed to 675 prior to the arrival of the Clan 'Mechs, supposedly because it was outclassing the rest of the Inner Sphere weapons. If this game is to become Clans vs. IS, having the ER LL returned to 720 meters is, in my opinion, preferable to having the C-ER LL range-nerfed.

That said, a real weapons-grade laser produces a less intense, larger-diameter beam the source to avoid damage to the firing unit itself. This less intense beam is then focused (generally with mirrors) into a more intense, smaller point at some distance away. This is the reason you get an optimum firing range; the cone starts spreading out after that point. This also means that the beam is less focused before that point. A good way to balance lasers would have been to give them a performance curve where the items are less effective off of the peak. That would make long-range Clan lasers pretty garbage at the ranges where Inner Sphere lasers are optimum, giving Clan 'Mechs a reason to try and maintain distance. Since most Clan 'Mechs are actually really fast for their weight and armament, this is not such an unfathomable proposal. Because Inner Sphere lasers are less powerful, their performance curve is much flatter because the beam doesn't have to be as diffuse from the firing unit, making their performance more uniform throughout their usable range.

I consider that a fair trade because it forces pilots to use their heads in combat rather than blazing away at any distance, confident in the utter superiority of their equipment.