219 replies to this topic

[Zerberoff]

This thread is impossible, it cant exist, because if we have learned anything from the MWO-Forum, its that LRM´s are a no-skill-weaponsystem, ergo everyone is exelent in playing an LRM Boats, ergo noone can be mad about bad LRM Boats, ergo there cant be threads about Bad LRM Pilots.

[Lupin]

Triordinant, on 10 August 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

I wonder if "high-level" players and teams even use LRMs. They seem more like a nuisance weapon system or pre-assault bombardment tool than a match-winning threat in the solo queue (I've never played in the group queue).

Answer NO they do not, did you not see last team competition games?

[Scurry]

Kilo 40, on 11 August 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

but he's the last one alive, he's still fighting, so why do you think he's the one who lost the match? If you were still alive you could have distracted them and he could have kept firing on them, and then won. so YOU lost the match(using your logic anyway).

*Edited out convoluted analogy* Basically, that's irrelevant. I am saying that performance can be improved, to the point of salvaging wins in certain scenarios where a loss would result, in the event that the LRM boat brings a single backup weapon.

*sigh*

You misunderstand. I'm not putting exclusive blame on him for loss or victory. Everyone shares partial blame. However, one way that a victory could be salvaged would be to keep a backup weapon.

Do you get the point yet? It's not about blame, it's about improvement.

Edited by Scurry, 11 August 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Escef]

Zerberoff, on 11 August 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

This thread is impossible, it cant exist, because if we have learned anything from the MWO-Forum, its that LRM´s are a no-skill-weaponsystem, ergo everyone is exelent in playing an LRM Boats, ergo noone can be mad about bad LRM Boats, ergo there cant be threads about Bad LRM Pilots.

I believe it was Springfield Mayor "Diamond Joe" Quimby who said, “I'm sick of you people, you’re nothing but a pack of fickle mush heads.”

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

You know, it's actually somewhat interesting how Competitive play worked back in MW4, compared to how it works here.

I remember some of my league play back in MW4Mercs, we would select the tonnage value, then the map, once map was selected, it was very interesting because the map 100% dictated the tactics used. Long range open map? LRM boats on the outskirts making up a good majority of the force with some fast skirmishers to put out some damage to whatever got in the middle, some Long Range Direct Fire for some added front loaded damage, then move up.

City Map? All brawling all day.

Mix? Pick a tactic and force them to you.

of course, MW4 also had simi-destructable terrain in some areas... so what might have started as a city could have ended up rubble by the end of the match, and your brawling weapons COULD end up useless against LRM spam.

But it was interesting.

Now that being said, I HATED that we could pick maps back then, I've always felt that it's better not to know what you're going to drop into, because then, you're going to take builds that are either specilized, and get screwed for it [IE a short range brawler on alpine, or a long range support mech on say Terra Therma.] or you're going to sacrifice your full damage potential for a slightly more varried loadout to contend with any range of scenario's. And I personally feel that the random maps have encouraged a slightly more diverse loadout for mechs, hell look at how well the stock Timberwolf Prime does... Hell my main modification for the T-wolf just removes the mpulse for some extra heatsinks and MAYBE I'll downgrade the missle launches to 15's for some more ammo and sinks, but that mech does AMAZING with it's diverse range loadout.

The problem comes of course, when you get a purely dedicated LRM boat... and I've seen this... A1's that are all LRM 5's because that's the current cheese of the day.[has been for a while anyway.] To keep mechs rocking that end up out of place. These dedicated support boats CAN be a credit to the team. IF they play right.

The problem is they end up in the hands of people who don't know how to position, how to move, when to move, ect. And they end up sitting back and not doing nearly their damage potential.

It's why I encourage people who want to utilize these kinds of mechs, to take a CPT-C4 as their starting mech, because it's got your two missile racks in the arms, letting you take a couple of decent missile types, and then it gives you 4 laser hardpoints. Those 4 laser hardpoints mean that once you're dry of ammo, you're STILL viable, and it encourages you to move up into closer ranges with those LRM's so that if something happens you can bring the lasers to bear.

But not enough people think this way, they want to MAX OUT ALL THE MISSILES... and they end up not packing enough ammo, or not moving right, and then...you just end up with dead weight.

[Livewyr]

LRMs are a sore point for me in this game, mostly because of PGI's handling of them, and their interactions.

I love the concept of LRMs. (My job in the US Army was indirect fire, and I love the concept)

But where it gets nasty for me has 2 major reasons, and a few sub reasons.

1: LRMs, currently, can use IDF (Indirect Fire) willy nilly (with mere shared targeting) and therefore it is preferable to boat, especially by [sic] Assault mechs. ("Why only bring an LRM 10 that I can use to support when not directly engaging, when I can bring LRM50 and entirely ruin someone's day without having to see them?")
1a: And the Indirect fire mode is pretty accurate, still putting a painful majority of missiles on target.

2: ECM makes the LRMs have two polar uses:
2a: Without it, they can be a dominating force in a lot of locations...ruining games of most anything heavier than 40 tons before they get to fire more than a few times.
2b: With it, and especially a lot of it, as some of my more unfortunate colleagues were painfully reminded last night; lets them have the most honorable status of a paper weight.

But back to Point 1:
The way LRMs work currently is too easily used lazily. I loathe those who call them "no skill" weapons because there is a way to use them more effectively, requiring skill, however I must acknowledge that they have a point: LRMs can be boated and used with relatively little skill. (Not as effectively, but effectively enough to be enticing to the lazy.)

This is where this thread comes in: Exhibit A- "Hold locks"
Hold locks is one of many telltale signs of a lazy LRM boater. He does not plan on actively engaging in the fight, he plans to sit back behind the lines, wait for you to lock something for him, and hope you hold the lock long enough for him to do damage. To this end, he typically does not have more than a few small weapons as defense and therefore cannot actively engage in any direct combat, which means he cannot get his own locks.

The solution: Take away lazy LRMs.
Speed up LRMs and increase their range, but let them get indirect fire capability only while the target is TAG'd or Narc'd, and have the Narc/TAG reward be massively rewarding. (Bigger than it is now.)
This serves a few purposes. (At least in theory)
1: Having a highly rewarding spotting system gives light mechs another role to fill, and a lucrative one at that. Light mechs are the kings and queens of getting behind enemy lines where they can spot constantly with much less risk of getting annihilated. This would be a viable alternative to direct combat: PGI's only real source of income and experience.
2: It would suggest to the LRM boat that he should take fewer LRMs in order to pack on substantial direct fire capability. (Even bringing a designated light to Narc/TAG for you is not a guarantee... what if they die?) This means that the mech carrying LRMs (no longer a boat) can actively participate in combat with the rest of the team, and also perform IDF when an opportunity arises.
3: LRMs could bring less ammo. (Conventional wisdom right now is to bring at least 1 ton of ammo for every 5 tubes because a lot of it is going to get wasted on unseen and unreliable targets.) Having IDF targets be only intentional locks gives the LRM user a better chance of the missiles being useful rather than wasted.

I currently have an LRM mech, my only one, with LRMs, Medium Lasers, and a PPC, with about 1 ton of ammo per 10 tubes. It does very well in prolonged direct combat (PPC+ML+LRMs), it does okay in peekaboo warfare (PPC) and it still performs IDF when a decent opportunity arises.. all while having much less ammo- and it certainly is not a lazy LRM boat.
-----------------------------

Granted, all of the above changes would be just about pointless with ECM staying the way it is. (I think ECM was made the way it is, specifically to curb willy nilly IDF, but it also made LRMs more or less paperweights compared to direct fire.)

ECM would need to change, until then..."Hold locks, people."

[Kilo 40]

Scurry, on 11 August 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

If a runner in a relay race slows down because he decided to wear slippers instead of running shoes, would you say that the runners before him lost the race?

[mogs01gt]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 August 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

You hear it all too frequently in game.
"Hold locks."
"LRM boat here, press R to target."
And then they do little damage and die last, complaining that their team didn't hold locks.
Why is this? Are they truly gods of support walking among mere mortals with plebeian direct-fire weaponry?
No, they simply don't understand that "hold locks" also means "take fire from enemy mechs."
And then when they're out of position to provide effective support fire, people don't bother trying to hold the lock when it takes >10 seconds for the rain to actually come, because if they do they're going to die. A good LRM boat should only be firing indirectly when they *know* they have a dedicated spotter who is calling targets for them. If they don't have this, they should not be relying on IDF as a primary tactic, especially as this puts more enemy focus on their team mates with direct fire weapons.
So, to wrap up: if someone on your team is willing to hold locks, you need to be in position to take advantage of these locks or they take damage for no reason. Also, rely less on IDF, you're simply putting your team mates at a disadvantage.

I agree! Im always surprised at the guys with LRMS on the mechs that simply fire right as they get a lock......That lock wont be there for long!!

[Darth Hotz]

If i run my missleboat i let my folks now that there is a missleboat: "LRMs ready for your service"

I dont ask for locks, but i want to inform that there might be good use for TAGs, Drones and NARCs.

[Evil Ed]

[quote name='Lupin]Answer NO they do not' date=' did you not see last team competition games?[/quote']

We used LRM-boats in some of yesterdays RHOD-matches.

[Scurry]

Kilo 40, on 11 August 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Thank you. But seriously, do you get my point yet? It's not about blame, but what could be better.

[King Arthur IV]

good lrm boats will know the difference between a good idf target and a bad one. more importantly good lrm boats know how to reposition and try get their own line of sight. you have to be willing to risk taking damage to deal damage. relying 100% on IDF is the worst kind of support you can be.

another thing is, the willingness to take damage allows your team to also do their jobs more effectively. taking turns to soak damage is a team effort that a lot of people over look.

there are too many times iv seen really healthy mechs towards the end of the match that are still hiding. more often then not they are lrm boats or have some lrms.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 11 August 2014 - 05:35 AM.

[Jman5]

The best LRM users I know are very active in getting their own locks. They move around constantly, they close the gap to minimize the flight time, and they often carry their own NARC/TAG.

Telling us you're an LRM pilot is basically pointless. No one is going to play any different and most wont even remember you said it 2 minutes from now. When they see the LRM icon on a target people will try to hold locks, but otherwise, not.

[stocky0904]

Sorry i only read the first page of this thread. But i think its all the same on every page.

What some people dont understand is that LRMboats are only there to help. I dont know why people hate them. When i type: please use the "r-button" i dont mean that a player should go in front and let himself shoot in the face. Never ever. Im sick and tired to hear this again and again.

But if this player is in a brawl or is fighting with someone LOS, why shouldnt he type "r". He should do this anyways to get target informations but a lot dont do it. But this problem mostly occures in the lower to mid elo area.

After all its a team related game. We win together or we lose together. And i think LRMs are a big help to win a game. (And there is no kill stealing because kills (including your own) dont count in this game, only wins)

And yes, LRMboats need backup weapons. Most of them have a lot of tubes but not enough ammo. Thats the wrong way. Im always laughing when 0.5t of ammo are hitting an empty piece of ground. Smaller racks with more ammo are the right way and with at least 2 MLas or MPLas as a backup.

Atm i use a KTO-18 with 5x LRM5 (8t) and 2 MPLas, BAP (similar to the new ChampMech). And i use it just behind the frontline to be effective. Next best LRMboat is my JM-A (4x LRM5).

[RockmachinE]

I automatically lock the target I am engaging right away, I even caught myself doing it when I'm the last mech standing and a second or two away from certain death.

I will hold the lock so long as I am putting effective fire on the enemy and feel comfortable being exposed to return fire, and not a second more. I see absolutely no reason to hold a lock for some hypothetical LRM barrage that might or might not happen.

There is plenty of ways to obtain locks yourself during skirmishes where locks are constant or manoeuvreing yourself intro position to get your own locks. I play this game WITH you not for you. Teamwork is not me running around so YOU can enjoy your game. You get lock so long as its feasible and not a second more.

In a light I will occasionally flank an enemy and hold locks without engaging, if I see good LRM team support.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 11 August 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

Louis Brofist, on 11 August 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I automatically lock the target I am engaging right away, I even caught myself doing it when I'm the last mech standing.

I will hold the lock so long as I am putting effective fire on the enemy and feel comfortable being exposed to return fire, and not a second more. I see absolutely no reason to hold a lock for some hypothetical LRM barrage that might or might not happen.

There is plenty of ways to obtain locks yourself during skirmishes where locks are constant or manoeuvreing yourself intro position to get your own locks. I play this game WITH you not for you. Teamwork is not me running around so YOU can enjoy your game. You get lock so long as its feasible and not a second more.

In a light I will occasionally flank an enemy and hold locks without engaging, if I see good LRM team support.

This is also one of few posts with a lot of sense.
... Aaaand, for the moment, I applause. OP, you've done very well to make a flame thread

[Penance]

I like the "I'm not dying so you can blow your load from across the map" replies

Edited by Penance, 11 August 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Reitrix]

In my LRM Boat A1, I feel like i've failed if my kills are higher than my assists.

I aim to strip armor and mess up the targets aim more than outright killing.
When i ask you to hold a lock, I don't mean for you to charge the enemy line and get blown to pieces, i only ask you to press R while you ARE engaging a target, so i can help you down it faster by stripping off armor and messing with his ability to return fire.

When the team is targeting someone who popped over a ridge, I'm able to drop a salvo on him after he retreated from your LoS, thereby softening him up a little more for your next shot at him.

ECM be damned, I'll dumbfire entire salvos at Atlai and Spiders. And hit them too, lol. Too many people simply ignore missiles in flight unless they see the WARNING message.

I'll sit 50m behind the frontline 'Mechs, only to get torn to pieces when a flanking Light comes calling, and when i ask for help, the team laughs and tells me i should equip a weapon that requires skill.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kilo 40, on 11 August 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

but he's the last one alive, he's still fighting, so why do you think he's the one who lost the match? If you were still alive you could have distracted them and he could have kept firing on them, and then won. so YOU lost the match(using your logic anyway).

any build with no point defense weapons, preferably a pair of lasers (though some like the A1 can't do that) is simply put, a bad build. The match might have been lost in the example that was posted, but because the guy brought a bad build, he guaranteed the loss. Mind you, losses are still very much a team thing, at the end of the day, but individuals can be the direct contributors to it, be it the last guy standing In an Assault Mech, with arm lock on, who can't target that damaged Light Mech the enemy have left, the bozo that did a suicide glory charge in the beginning of the match, the guy who refuses to use "R" to actually see where he should be shooting for most effect, or, yes, the guy who makes a "dedicated" LRMboat, designed to hide in cover all match, lobbing LRMs, and doesn't equip the CQB weaponry to be effective when the enemy closes, or he runs out of ammo.

[Satan n stuff]

Wolfways, on 10 August 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Whenever i'm in my CPLT-C1 i don't bother telling my team (PUG) unless someone asks if there's any LRM's (usually someone with NARC).
I don't like indirect-fire, I'd rather get my own locks. The problem with that is that PP FLD weapons will core me before i do much damage to the target. Direct-fired LRM's are terrible in MWO because to direct-fire at a target without being shot to pieces means firing from long range, which LRM's in MWO cannot do because of the incoming missile warning and huge amount of cover on most maps.

I've done quite well with LRM boats with an AC/2 for additional screen shake, you can start firing while getting a lock to make it harder for the target to fight back. If your reflexes are good you can easily counter poptarts with that setup, I once took on two Victors at the same time with my TDR-5S. I didn't kill them but I had them hiding the entire match while I was supporting my teammates elsewhere. Multitasking FTW.
It works with the Thunderbolt 5S and any Orion, but especially well with the VA. It also works with Highlanders and Atlai, but you'll want some additional weapons on those.
For Clan mechs, anything bigger than a Nova will work.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 11 August 2014 - 07:25 AM.