219 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

spectralthundr, on 10 August 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Those guys that hide behind a hill all game spamming missles aren't providing much teamwork to begin with to be honest.

B.S.

[Scurry]

I don't particularly mind a request for locks at the start of the match, but given I lock everything I shoot at, it doesn't make much of a difference.

What I do mind is an LRM boat losing a match because it has no backup weapons whatsoever, or complaining that teammates are not locking targets when the opposing team is under ECM cover.

[Aim64C]

Scurry, on 10 August 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

I don't particularly mind a request for locks at the start of the match, but given I lock everything I shoot at, it doesn't make much of a difference.

I'll play a bit of a devil's advocate, here.



This, in part, is why LRM pilots ask for people to hold locks. When they flitter in and out of existence - even shots from 500 meters are next to impossible, particularly with the new radar deprivation, or whatever.

Now - I also understand that it is kind of hard to do that when you're staring a Direwolf in the face.

The point is, though, that you can't hit **** when targets pop in and out of existing all the time since a mech has to move all of about 5 meters laterally to completely avoid damage at the last second.

So I understand why they ask - and I understand why people think it's kind of insulting to do so.

Quote

What I do mind is an LRM boat losing a match because it has no backup weapons whatsoever, or complaining that teammates are not locking targets when the opposing team is under ECM cover.

Again, playing devil's advocate:



Did I lose the match, here?

Granted - I could have made some better decisions - but there were eleven other people on my team who weren't recording their intimate failures inside the cockpit.

I think it's kind of silly to make the argument that any one player or one build 'lost the match for the team.' It's always easy to pass the blame off onto others - when the reality is that most of the times a team fails is due to the team not working as a team.

[Pjwned]

Escef, on 10 August 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

It's not ridiculous. You try to support as much of the team as you can. No, you can't cover the whole battlefield. And you don't need to. Most of the fight is limited to one or two areas, and on the smaller maps (like River City) these areas are not too distant. It does become an issue where you need to choose a group to support on larger maps. And the group that gets your support is usually the one that can hold a lock or throw a UAV up.

I will also note that despite the 750 meter range on TAG, there are several maps where even sighting the enemy past 400 meters is not easy.

If you're only focusing on 1 or 2 areas then you should be able to at least take a peek and do some spotting yourself, most times if you fire 1 launcher that will at least prompt somebody to hide and of course if you have a solid target then you let it rip, which can and does happen.

Kilo 40, on 10 August 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

B.S.

Are you saying that hiding behind a hill the whole time with LRMs does actually provide much teamwork then? I'd love to hear how that is if that's the case because I sure don't see it.

[Kilo 40]

Scurry, on 10 August 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

What I do mind is an LRM boat losing a match because it has no backup weapons whatsoever

how exactly is that losing the match?

[Kilo 40]

Pjwned, on 10 August 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Are you saying that hiding behind a hill the whole time with LRMs does actually provide much teamwork then? I'd love to hear how that is if that's the case because I sure don't see it.

I'f a light NARCs an assault, and an LRM boat then attacks that mech, even from behind cover, causing high damage or a kill, THAT is the very definition of team work.

If an assault starts brawling with another assault, and the pilot has the foresight to make sure he targets the mech he's fighting with, and then a LRM pilot is paying attention to his mini map and sees the targeted mech is circling a friendly so he changes targets to that mech to help his teammate, that too is the very definition of team work. yes...even if the LRM boat is behind cover and can't see them.

or everyone pushes over a ridge and teh RLM pilot starts lobbing missile that he knows won't hit but will cause the enemy to duck and take cover while his team pushes....well there you go, that's team work too.

[Training Instructor]

I brought narc to pugs for a bit when leveling my kitfox. Half the time, the lrm boats would be trying to rain some guy behind cover, while ignoring the guy I narced.

My favorite big boat is a Battlemaster S with 50 ALRM tubes, 3 medium lasers, TAG, and BAP. I do my best to find my own targets. I didn't use it much during the steiner challenge though, because I was eating damage to TAG and bomb people, and 3 cowards sitting behind me were taking advantage of it, often getting the kill.

The Steiner challenge was a great example of cowards in LRM boats who wanted to take zero risks farming kills while their teammates tanked for them.

[zortesh]

I've seen a few terrible missileboats in my time....

i"ve seen people fiirng into walls, or unloading endless lrms after a jenner when theres a narced ddc in the open...

Lrms are useless without teamwork, but there super useful at times, they can drive the lights off the isolated guy being swarmed, crush that first ddc leading the push, and they panic bad players like nothing else.

but expecting teamates to lock for you is ludicrious...
What really bothers me thou is lrm timberwolfs without narc beacons.. I mean it has jumpjets and goes fast, if your going be a lrmboat it should have a narc beacon, not only will it make you more useful to the team, it will massively increase your effectiveness and remove your reliance on teammates for spots..

I see alot of people with 50 or 60 missile tubes on a tiberwolf.. holding at the back leeching kils and damage basically.. it bother me.


Now some vidieos of compotent missileboating, becuase i consdier myself a semi-compotent pilot.





those sit in the back guys are a pluage, they give missileboats a bad name.. there the reason it gets called no no skill playstyle... im okay with you going it with a lrm 50-lrm60 assultmech, especially if your close enough to land missiles quickly and know what a narc beacon is and what are good targets.... but timberwolf lrm boats have no excuse... if you sit 600+ meters back lrming the whole game your simply not useful.

Thou i do find it super hilarious when people call me a coward for using lrms, as im usally at the front... in a bright multicoloured mech.

Edited by zortesh, 10 August 2014 - 10:41 PM.

[Escef]

Aim64C, on 10 August 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

snip

If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion? CPLT-C4

You started with 1800 missiles, and had around 600 left at end of match (granted, you lost one of your launchers mid-way). You could stand to drop a little ammo, a smaller engine, and add some jets and secondary weapons. Not saying you should mimic my buid, but I think yours could use a few tweaks. I'm guessing you maxed out the armor, because you should at least have tonnage for a small laser left over if you strip each leg down to 57 and everywhere else maxed.

[Kyle Wright]

zortesh, on 10 August 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

I've seen a few terrible missileboats in my time....

i"ve seen people fiirng into walls, or unloading endless lrms after a jenner when theres a narced ddc in the open...

Lrms are useless without teamwork, but there super useful at times, they can drive the lights off the isolated guy being swarmed, crush that first ddc leading the push, and they panic bad players like nothing else.

but expecting teamates to lock for you is ludicrious...
What really bothers me thou is lrm timberwolfs without narc beacons.. I mean it has jumpjets and goes fast, if your going be a lrmboat it should have a narc beacon, not only will it make you more useful to the team, it will massively increase your effectiveness and remove your reliance on teammates for spots..

I see alot of people with 50 or 60 missile tubes on a tiberwolf.. holding at the back leeching kils and damage basically.. it bother me.


Now some vidieos of compotent missileboating, becuase i consdier myself a semi-compotent pilot.





those sit in the back guys are a pluage, they give missileboats a bad name.. there the reason it gets called no no skill playstyle... im okay with you going it with a lrm 50-lrm60 assultmech, especially if your close enough to land missiles quickly and know what a narc beacon is and what are good targets.... but timberwolf lrm boats have no excuse... if you sit 600+ meters back lrming the whole game your simply not useful.

Thou i do find it super hilarious when people call me a coward for using lrms, as im usally at the front... in a bright multicoloured mech.

What he said right in the last paragraph is exactly why I have my view point. Im sorry, but when you sit in the back with your lrm50+ assault mech at 600 meters from the front line, all the while the guys up front are eating arty,air, and close range high alphas then I feel no sympathy. Last faction challenge 7 of my top 10 matches were in a Battlemaster-1S with 2 LRM15s and a LRM10 with Artemis plus 4MLs and I played the close range missile boat who was 2-300 meters behind the main team line eating some shots when possible and helping to eliminated guys that peaked over a hill. Not once did I ask people to hold locks for me not once have I ever even in groups asked people to hold my hand and help me do my job as a teammate.

1 thing Ive learned from this game is outside of people you are grouped with( and there are exceptions then even) YOU CANNOT RELY ON YOUR TEAM IN PUGLAND. no one can hear your screams for help, or tell you they are targeting someone let her rip. Any competent pilot will be looking at targets that can be taken out of the fight the fasted so that the enemies COMBAT LOSS GROUPING begins to stack making the teams likelihood of winning go up. This requires people to bounce from target to target, especially when a new target jumps in front of you and you are either finding a way to maim or to kill him fast.

The only person that will look out for you and whats best for you in solo is YOU. We are nott mind readers nor in a combat unit with years of training together. I look at solo drops as being given replacement soldiers while trying to fight in the Battle of the Bulge. Some are better then others and can hold their owns, others not so much.

Edited by Kyle Wright, 10 August 2014 - 10:53 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Kilo 40, on 10 August 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

I'f a light NARCs an assault, and an LRM boat then attacks that mech, even from behind cover, causing high damage or a kill, THAT is the very definition of team work.

If an assault starts brawling with another assault, and the pilot has the foresight to make sure he targets the mech he's fighting with, and then a LRM pilot is paying attention to his mini map and sees the targeted mech is circling a friendly so he changes targets to that mech to help his teammate, that too is the very definition of team work. yes...even if the LRM boat is behind cover and can't see them.

or everyone pushes over a ridge and teh RLM pilot starts lobbing missile that he knows won't hit but will cause the enemy to duck and take cover while his team pushes....well there you go, that's team work too.

Nonononono, Team work is when they go in core everything, die and I grab all the kills to flame the team to be bad because they don't get kills.


Also using a TW as a missile boat example, lol TW is kinda OP, by the fact that you can easily boat 40 Missiles + some proper weaponary. If IS Missile boats could work like that, they would do it too, but they either can not boat as much missiles then to be a LRm boat anymore, or they lack offensive weaponary. TW is not a missile boat with 40LRM's its offensive Artillerie brawling.

IS mechs are a lot more role defined. And LRM's have their place there in boats. Unfortunately PUG teamplay hardly makes use of the roles, since it requires coordination the PUG does not have.

[Kilo 40]

Escef, on 10 August 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion? CPLT-C4

may I offer a suggestion?

Drop the 20s, add LRM15s, and throw on some more ammo.

LRM20s are a waste of tonnage on IS mechs. with 15's you can keep more missiles in the air throughout the match.

[Lily from animove]

Kyle Wright, on 10 August 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

1 thing Ive learned from this game is outside of people you are grouped with( and there are exceptions then even) YOU CANNOT RELY ON YOUR TEAM IN PUGLAND. no one can hear your screams for help, or tell you they are targeting someone let her rip. Any competent pilot will be looking at targets that can be taken out of the fight the fasted so that the enemies COMBAT LOSS GROUPING begins to stack making the teams likelihood of winning go up. This requires people to bounce from target to target, especially when a new target jumps in front of you and you are either finding a way to maim or to kill him fast.

PUGLAND requires a lot of intuitition. Especially for the battlefield situation. When I use my Nova it is important to figure out very soon what mechs the opponent has. And where they are roughly positioned. Tahts why I think ECM in PUG is kinda OP, since you hardly will ever get a chance to figure this out to prepare yourself for the situation. Not because of LRM's not able to lock on anything.

And then it comes to the decisions being made. Stay behind and support LRM boats vs the lights that just wnet off to get them, or trying to assist the brawl at the front lines?

LRM's are a very vital aspect, they force the opp team to stay more at cover, they are assitant fire to the team, especially IS LRM's are very fragile on their own. So helping vs the lights, even if its just to scare them off can be a vital part of the missions dynamic and success.

[Escef]

Kilo 40, on 10 August 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

may I offer a suggestion?

Drop the 20s, add LRM15s, and throw on some more ammo.

LRM20s are a waste of tonnage on IS mechs. with 15's you can keep more missiles in the air throughout the match.

Eh, if I want that I go for my A1.

[NextGame]

I quite like playing LRM boat, and do so fairly regularly, here are some comments on the matter.

• Some players do not hold targets, or even lock targets whatsoever. By not doing so, they are reducing their team's effectiveness by the same number of LRM launchers being carried.
  
• I often have to drop my own UAV, which is a *lot* of hassle and big time risky in a slow assault mech when you need to waddle out to the front line & the rest of your team are hiding 500m behind. Chances are if you are in this position you are dead, and your team go a man down who didnt get much chance to realise their damage potential.
  
• Some LRM boats do stand far too back. You need to be prepared to take a few hits to allow damage to be spread across the team.
  
• Some LRM boats get left at the back by their faster teammates, because **** teamwork, right?
  
• Narc placers often like to Narc mechs who are out of range, or in inaccessible locations, such as the opposite side of the pyramid on HPG.
  
• No one wants to take fire from enemy mechs because no one wants to be the first one to die or to do little damage. This results in some of the boring games imaginable, along with some really crippled pug teams who should, quite frankly, just uninstall, as they don't understand how to win a game. A team with 12 hiders is generally the team that gets wiped out, in my experience.
  
• When the enemy team has ECM, an LRM boat can often be completely worthless due to lack of targetting opportunities.
  
• If you are an LRM boat and find yourself considerably away from the main combat, you need to pick and choose who you are firing at as targets get dropped often. Only fire at targets who have been locked by your team for a few seconds, as often targets are fleeting when long range engagement is going on between the 2 teams. Essentially LRM's dont fit in very well with sniper gameplay, but instead goes well with a brawling encounter, which might seem counter intuitive given their range, but its all about sustained locks on targets.

Edited by NextGame, 10 August 2014 - 11:25 PM.

[Kilo 40]

NextGame, on 10 August 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

• When the enemy team has ECM, an LRM boat can often be completely worthless due to lack of targetting opportunities.

I agree with everything you said, but if we're giving advice I want to say something about this part of your comment.

people forget sometimes that LRMs don't have to have a lock all the time to be useful. even against units under ECM you can still dumb fire a volley in order to get them to scatter/dive for cover.

also in situation where you know the enemy is there, but you haven't a clue how many there are, you can fire a volley over them and count the AMS streams(yes it's not perfect, but it can help).

even a single dumb fired LRM5 can send an ECM assault into hiding as soon as he hears "incoming missiles".


Just some things for people to think about while they are waiting/looking for targets.

[Escef]

Kilo 40, on 10 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said, but if we're giving advice I want to say something about this part of your comment.

people forget sometimes that LRMs don't have to have a lock all the time to be useful. even against units under ECM you can still dumb fire a volley in order to get them to scatter/dive for cover.

also in situation where you know the enemy is there, but you haven't a clue how many there are, you can fire a volley over them and count the AMS streams(yes it's not perfect, but it can help).

even a single dumb fired LRM5 can send an ECM assault into hiding as soon as he hears "incoming missiles".


Just some things for people to think about while they are waiting/looking for targets.

On the subject of dumb/dead-firing LRMs... Yes, you can do it, and I've seen people that with practice can do some pretty amazing stuff. I had a team mate that demonstrated to me just how well he can dumb-fire by planting an LRM salvo right in front of me while I was in a Jenner moving full speed. The easiest targets, of course, are ECM Atlases and Dire Whales. The Atlas pilot often thinks you can't hit him, and the Dire could be bull's eye'd by a blind man with a blunderbus.

[zortesh]

NextGame, on 10 August 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

I quite like playing LRM boat, and do so fairly regularly, here are some comments on the matter.

• Some players do not hold targets, or even lock targets whatsoever. By not doing so, they are reducing their team's effectiveness by the same number of LRM launchers being carried.
  
• I often have to drop my own UAV, which is a *lot* of hassle and big time risky in a slow assault mech when you need to waddle out to the front line & the rest of your team are hiding 500m behind. Chances are if you are in this position you are dead, and your team go a man down who didnt get much chance to realise their damage potential.
  
• Some LRM boats do stand far too back. You need to be prepared to take a few hits to allow damage to be spread across the team.
  
• Some LRM boats get left at the back by their faster teammates, because **** teamwork, right?
  
• Narc placers often like to Narc mechs who are out of range, or in inaccessible locations, such as the opposite side of the pyramid on HPG.
  
• No one wants to take fire from enemy mechs because no one wants to be the first one to die or to do little damage. This results in some of the boring games imaginable, along with some really crippled pug teams who should, quite frankly, just uninstall, as they don't understand how to win a game. A team with 12 hiders is generally the team that gets wiped out, in my experience.
  
• When the enemy team has ECM, an LRM boat can often be completely worthless due to lack of targetting opportunities.
  
• If you are an LRM boat and find yourself considerably away from the main combat, you need to pick and choose who you are firing at as targets get dropped often. Only fire at targets who have been locked by your team for a few seconds, as often targets are fleeting when long range engagement is going on between the 2 teams. Essentially LRM's dont fit in very well with sniper gameplay, but instead goes well with a brawling encounter, which might seem counter intuitive given their range, but its all about sustained locks on targets.

Last one means you failed to move with the group, a lrm boat should never be away from the main combat, thou you often have to walk to weird palces to get angles, your generally safer in a blob of mechs 200 meters from the enemy, than being far from the combat but far from freindlies.

Thou having boated some really slow stalkers I do understand it, I tend to like the fire over the shopulder of the nearest ddc tactic in a slow boat.

I more or less agree with the rest of your post.

narcs can be hard to land, often you take whatever target you can hit, and is out of a ecm bubble.. thats why I like narcing from a timberwolf, my narced targets are immediately useful to me, and i can actively hunt ecm mechs in a missileboat.. which is wonderfully ironic and satisifying.

[EyesBurn]

Scurry, on 10 August 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

I don't particularly mind a request for locks at the start of the match, but given I lock everything I shoot at, it doesn't make much of a difference.

What I do mind is an LRM boat losing a match because it has no backup weapons whatsoever, or complaining that teammates are not locking targets when the opposing team is under ECM cover.

I had yesterday a match where i scored over 1000 dmg with my awesome 8R,i lurmed the pants out of everyone,i was left out of ammo,score was around 5-5 or 3-3,i forgot. After i lost ammo i was only one left standing there,3 against one,off course we lost,i couldnt fight with two med lasers left,so it must be my fault that we lost or maybe that match wouldnt even be even if i didnt keep the enemy on distance whenever they popped their heads out,please tell me,i am in a real dilemma here !?
like i said earlier,in my previous two posts here,i take this game as a team effort,WE LOST,not just me,if i even took another assault that i am not bad with and has unlimited ammo,it still wouldnt matter,they were just better then US,i really wouldnt make over 1000 dmg with it ,maybe the score would be little different,but WE would still loose,because them ,all together were better then US!

[Voidcrafter]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 August 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

You hear it all too frequently in game.

"Hold locks."

"LRM boat here, press R to target."

And then they do little damage and die last, complaining that their team didn't hold locks.

Why is this? Are they truly gods of support walking among mere mortals with plebeian direct-fire weaponry?

No, they simply don't understand that "hold locks" also means "take fire from enemy mechs."

And then when they're out of position to provide effective support fire, people don't bother trying to hold the lock when it takes >10 seconds for the rain to actually come, because if they do they're going to die. A good LRM boat should only be firing indirectly when they *know* they have a dedicated spotter who is calling targets for them. If they don't have this, they should not be relying on IDF as a primary tactic, especially as this puts more enemy focus on their team mates with direct fire weapons.

So, to wrap up: if someone on your team is willing to hold locks, you need to be in position to take advantage of these locks or they take damage for no reason. Also, rely less on IDF, you're simply putting your team mates at a disadvantage.

I am playing brawler almost all the time - I am at the front lines and while doing so, no matter how much I appretiate the support, I kinda dislike all this LRM boating.
BUT...
... I played yesterday with a LRM IS mech - AWS-8R(4xLRM15 +3xMPL) - I hade few games that I was abbandon by my team, one of it were the worse in my life(7 damage or so ) aside from those I completely wrecked stuff.
I was actually disgusted how easy it is to play LRM "support" when you have the common knowledge how to possition yourself.
I did, with no efford mind you, ~700<-->800 damage every match, rarely having LOS on my target.
LRMs are deadly and that doesn't need any further discussion for me.

What disgusted me the more is the fact I actually was starting to like this playstyle

Anyways - there aint much you can do about it - LRM boat is good for the team only if the pilot has the most common knowledge how to possition himself aaaand when the team is not spread out across the whole map targeting stuff that are out of the range of the LRM support named.
Not to mention that IS LRMs, for me atleast, are the best anti-clan weaponary currently the IS have - it just obliterates any sorts of clan mechs and I mean ANY.
And I was testing that even without artemis or some supperior LRM capable mech like the STALKER.
So I respect the weapon and despise it in the same time - but with contrast to respect.
You should do the same, because...
if you wish to be supported from LRM pilot you should support him first.

If you ask me personally - I would gladly remove the LRMs from the game if I could and continue with my pure brawling, facewrecking stuff - buuut since I can't and since it's there, also since there's almost always someone on your team carrying them - the best thing you could do is to not get annoyed when someone is informing the team that he's carrying them and try help it by adjusting your playstyle just a bit.

And I can't even believe I said all this sheet... man I hate LRMs so much