104 replies to this topic

[Lexx]

Technoviking, on 12 August 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

WHATTT??!

It's because . "for balance. corerule ignore." reminded me of this,...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVsijmCFs50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fvTxv46ano

I just assumed everyone knew about it. Sorry for any confusing I caused, but confusion is this thread!

Edited by Lexx, 12 August 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[WmLowFlyer]

Inb4K-town

[Sandpit]

someone is actually complaining that MWO is too close to TT rules....? they obviously have never played TT...
smh

[Kiiyor]

Sandpit, on 12 August 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

someone is actually complaining that MWO is too close to TT rules....? they obviously have never played TT...
smh

I THINK that's what he's referring to...

[Aresye]

IIIuminaughty, on 12 August 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

12v5 (as and example) isn't very smart to put in. (12 being IS mechs and the 5 being clan mechs). TT rules is not very effective when it comes to the main point of online shooters. no matter how powerful the clan mech unless invincible, 12v5, the 12 will win 99% of the time. This game is based on skill, we don't roll any dices here.
Problem with PGI they are nerfing way to much. I was fine with the 2 ppc/gauss combo change. But making ppc as slow as it, really isn't even worth putting them on anymore. so they are going to nerf another weapon to make up for the lack of ppcs on the battlefield.

Well, if Clan mechs were unaltered to be as overpowering as they are in TT, then 12v5 might work. As it stands with the current Clan balance, 12v5 wouldn't work.

[stjobe]

Aresye, on 12 August 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Well, if Clan mechs were unaltered to be as overpowering as they are in TT, then 12v5 might work. As it stands with the current Clan balance, 12v5 wouldn't work.

12v10 might.

[wolf74]

To Understand the something from the Battletech Universe you have to Look more than the core rules. Like the Fire Rate of weapons Most player only think of the Once every 10sec per Classic Battletech Maps system. But if you look at the Solaris 7 System if Breaks down to 2.5sec windows which gives us a Better Idea of Weapon System True Fire rate. Once you have seen this system you would see how nerfed the Clans are in MWO compared to their CBT counter Parts.

For those who want to look up what I am talking about
Solaris VII Box Set FASA 1660 GameMaster's Book
Solaris: The Reaches FASA 1659

The Solaris VII system Use weapon Delay 0-3 which was how many Turns before the weapon Could Fire again so For this we will use the Max Cooldown numbers;
Delay of 0 = 2.5sec
Delay of 1 = 5sec
Delay of 2 = 7.5sec
Daley of 3 = 10sec

I will go and List the Weapons by Groups
AKA the Smaller the Delay number the faster it fires

Delay / Faction / Weapon

1 / IS / Small Laser
1 / IS / Small Pulse
0 / Clan / ER Small Laser
1 / Clan / Small Pulse

2 / IS / Medium Pulse
1 / IS / Medium Laser
1 / Clan / Medium Pulse
1 / Clan / Medium Laser

2 / IS / Large Laser
3 / IS / ER Large Laser
3 / IS / Large Pulse
2 / Clan / ER Large Laser
2 / Clan / Large Pulse

3 / IS / PPC
3 / IS / ER PPC
2 / Clan / ER PPC

1 / IS / Flamer
1 / Clan / Flamer

0 / IS / AC/2
0 / Clan / LB-2x & Ultra AC/2

1 / IS / AC/5 & UAC/5
0 / Clan / LB-5x & UAC/5

1 / IS / AC10 & LB-10x
0 / Clan / LB-10x
1 / Clan / UAC/10

2 / IS / AC20
1 / Clan / LB-20x
2 / Clan / UAC/20

1 / IS / SRM 2,4,6
0 / Clan / SRM 2,4,6

1 / IS / Streak-2
0 / Clan / Streak 2,4,6

2 / IS / LRM 5,10,15,20
1 / Clan / LRM 5,10,15,20

1 / IS / NARC
1 / Clan / NARC

2 / IS / Gauss Rifle
2 / Clan / Gauss Rifle

0 / IS / M.G.
0 / Clan / M.G.

As You can See using this Book info the Clan Weapons would Also Be firing FASTER than their IS Counter parts.

Edited by wolf74, 12 August 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Tamago Ausf F2]

OP, if my translation is in error, please let me know

you are overpower. not error.
we are people. not dice.
many rule -> for tabletop miniature game. that rule transfer online -> big fail.
many corerule need ignore. i know some people real hate it. but balance fail = many user leave = MWO is close.

worldoftank. buff, nerf. reason: balance. MWO same way.
i say this : for balance, ignore corerule.

Techorse, on 12 August 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

First of all, calming down before crapposting will lead to better English.

sorry. my life: no need english. use only ingame. so sorry.

[John1352]

That is a better post than the original, you need to explain which rules you want changed though.

[Samophlange]

One time...
See corerule.
Fall over. Hit head.
Now, for balance. corerule ignore.

[STEF_]

Technoviking, on 12 August 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

If we exercise together, we can have both.

Both? No thanks.
I choose the one on the left.... you can take the other....

[Pht]

Mercules, on 12 August 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

JJs - MWO slowly lift you up, you float around, the shake goes away when the JJ isn't on so you can fire with no penalties to firing allowing you to poptart effectively. TT jumping gives you a -3 to hit which is pretty high in a 2d6 system, that is roughly a 30% less chance of hitting in TT here it is... no less chance. In TT jumping also rockets you from one place to another moving you forward/sideways/back/up at up to 87kph.

It's actually +6 total when you consider that firing in the middle of a jump incurs the penalty for using opportunity fire.

Quote

Rate of Fire - In MWO you fire 2-4 times compared to TT. Now I wouldn't want to fire once per 10 seconds but the abstraction is that over 10 seconds a Medium Laser does X heat and Y damage. Let it fire 3 times but spread the heat and damage between those shots or ignore recycle on lasers and pressing the button means they are on and spread the damage/heat out over 10 seconds. Follows TT AND means amor didn't have to double/triple/quadruple.

Actually, it's not that the weapons damage is abstracted over ten seconds ... it's that in the whole of a turn you can do multiple things. We have no idea how fast the weapons can fire beyond that they probably DO fire faster than once every ten secons.

That said, heat is the balancing factor for all weapons, even zero-heat weapons, because if you add heat to a 'mech, that makes it harder for the 'mech to bring the weapons to bear.

So, if you want faster than 10 second recycles, add heat ... slower cycles, remove heat.

wolf74, on 12 August 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

To Understand the something from the Battletech Universe you have to Look more than the core rules. Like the Fire Rate of weapons Most player only think of the Once every 10sec per Classic Battletech Maps system. But if you look at the Solaris 7 System if Breaks down to 2.5sec windows which gives us a Better Idea of Weapon System True Fire rate. Once you have seen this system you would see how nerfed the Clans are in MWO compared to their CBT counter Parts.

For those who want to look up what I am talking about
Solaris VII Box Set FASA 1660 GameMaster's Book
Solaris: The Reaches FASA 1659

... and those books also clearly state that the weapons balance is changed by the recycle times - I'd bet using the stats from the regular game and balancing with the heat mathed by recycle time would work a bit more predictably and thus better.

MecatamaMk2, on 14 August 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

we are people. not dice.

Which is why (how many times do I have to repeat this before people understand it) you REMOVE all parts of the "corerule" that represent human skill.

The parts of the rules that are left will not give nonsense results and will NOT remove people skill as the controlling factor.

Quote

many rule -> for tabletop miniature game. that rule transfer online -> big fail.

False.

I know the rules that would have to be transferred. They would transfer over and work. These rules were not transfered. The numbers made to work with these rules WERE transfered. Problems followed.

[Kiiyor]

Pht, on 14 August 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

False.

I know the rules that would have to be transferred. They would transfer over and work. These rules were not transfered. The numbers made to work with these rules WERE transfered. Problems followed.

Well, waaaaay back in CB, the numbers were actually very, very close to TT. Mechs were dying in seconds, matches were about as fun as pepper spray in a westuit, and Jenners and lights ruled the day. There were numerous attempts to balance, but in the end the decision was made to throw most of it out the window, and start relatively fresh. That's when double armour was introduced.

Things needed to change, and did.

[AdamBaines]

Noesis, on 12 August 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
<meta charset="utf-8">
<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=edge,chrome=1">

<title>Apply BT Rule Evaluation</title>
<meta name="BT Rule Evaluation" content="1.0"> <meta name="author" content="Noesis"> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width; initial-scale=1.0"> </head> <body> <?php require "BTGameRuleslib.php"; if (isset($_POST['makeco"]))
{
$bt_precident = collect_bt_game_rules();

$pilot = $_POST['Pilot'];
$rule = $_POST['Comment'];
$mode = "FPS";
$dice = FALSE;

if ($pilot != "Sandpit)
{
if (in_array($rule, $bt_precident))
{
$mwo_use_rule = apply_closest_fit_to_rule($rule, $mode, $dice);
}
else
{
$mwo_use_rule = apply_common_sense($rule, $mode, $dice);
}
}
else
{
$mwo_use_rule = FALSE; // assumption fallacy
}
}

?>

<form method="post" action="#">

<label style="margin-left: 10px; color: white; border-color: grey" id="Pilotlbl" value="">Pilot Name:</label>
<input required="" size="32" style="margin-left: 10px; color: white; background-color: black; border-color: orange; text-align: left" type="text" name="Pilot" value=""> <BR><BR> <label style="margin-left: 10px; color: white; border-color: grey" id="Commentlbl" value="">Comments:</label> <textarea style="margin-left: 10px; color: white; background-color: black; border-color: grey; text-align: left" rows="3" cols="80" name="Comment"></textarea> <BR><BR> <input style="margin-left: 10px; color: black; background-color: grey; border-color: grey;" type="submit" name="makecomment" value="Make comment"> </form> </body> </html> ["]

Sadly, your post was easier to interpret then the OPs

Note, all of your HTML here really F'ed with the reply I was making as it kept finding issues with missing closed tags :-)

[Pht]

Kiiyor, on 14 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well, waaaaay back in CB, the numbers were actually very, very close to TT.

I know about this.

The armor and damage numbers were close.

But they didn't pick up the combat mechanics those numbers were built for. They DID take those numbers and put them into a combat mechanic that would predictably render the results of VERY quick deaths.

So, of course, the doubled external armor numbers happened, than the doubled internal numbers happened, than the weapons tweaks, etc, etc, etc, till where it is now, with ghost heat, gauss timers, limits on the numbers of gauss that can be fired when the lore supports no such, etc. All attempts to fix the results of using the armor and damage numbers but NOT the combat system those numbers were built with, and because they have had to do this all on the fly, with much of it reactionary, with constant re-tweaks upon the introduction of new factors, instead of coherently planned beforehand ... and now things are so far along that PGI's backers probably wouldn't let them even attempt to pick up the parts of the combat mechanic the original numbers were built for ... even if PGI wanted to.

IMO, things are now in "object lession for later developers" stage. Later, it seems, now being 2020.

Edited by Pht, 14 August 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[Kyrie]

I'm really starting to dig this thread.

The funny thing is that PGI has pretty much done exactly as requested: "for balance, core-rule ignore." Doubled armor values, rewriting the weapon values for the Clans, etc.

Not sure what else needs to be done to satisfy the original poster.

[Mercules]

Kiiyor, on 14 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well, waaaaay back in CB, the numbers were actually very, very close to TT. Mechs were dying in seconds, matches were about as fun as pepper spray in a westuit, and Jenners and lights ruled the day. There were numerous attempts to balance, but in the end the decision was made to throw most of it out the window, and start relatively fresh. That's when double armour was introduced.

Things needed to change, and did.

Yes, the NUMBERS. The value of those numbers was almost exactly TT. Except they forgot everything else that was the balancing framework around those numbers and those numbers were only a PORTION of the values.

As I have stated numerous times. A Medium Laser firing during a 10 second turn does 5 Damage and 3 Heat according to TT rules. According to Closed Beta MWO rules they did roughly 12 Damage and 6.5 Heat in a 10 second turn. So not even the TT values were correctly transferred across.

Why? Because PGI went, "This is what one table in a book said, that means it is canon and BT/MW fans will expect that." Ignoring all the rules around that table and what the table actually represents.

Basically, before PGI ever tried to translate the rules over, they should have understood them and what they represented.

Most people are too concrete in their thinking to understand what a turn based game actually stands in for and then translate that properly. Like in D&D, your warrior doesn't just stand around for 10 seconds waiting for his turn to swing his axe once. The combat is actually he and his foes shifting footing, swinging, parrying, blocking, and we abstract that ever 10 second he gets an opening in the enemy defenses to try and make a telling blow. I hear nerdy GMs describe it the other way though, all the time.

[Mcgral18]

Kiiyor, on 14 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well, waaaaay back in CB, the numbers were actually very, very close to TT. Mechs were dying in seconds, matches were about as fun as pepper spray in a westuit, and Jenners and lights ruled the day. There were numerous attempts to balance, but in the end the decision was made to throw most of it out the window, and start relatively fresh. That's when double armour was introduced.

Things needed to change, and did.

To my knowledge, we've never had proper TT values. Always 2-20 times recycle, with 1x armour it didn't end well. 2x armour means we can survive a bit longer. Magical convergence is the real issue, though.

[Noesis]

AdamBaines, on 14 August 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Sadly, your post was easier to interpret then the OPs

Note, all of your HTML here really F'ed with the reply I was making as it kept finding issues with missing closed tags :-)

Apologies, I have placed the code within appropriate BBCode tags now so that it doesnt hopefully interfere with any html use or browsers.

[AdamBaines]

Noesis, on 14 August 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Apologies, I have placed the code within appropriate BBCode tags now so that it doesnt hopefully interfere with any html use or browsers.

Sorry...but its in my nature....I work in Software QA. lol