45 replies to this topic

[Green Mamba]

Viktor Drake, on 12 August 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Won't work unfortunately.

Soon as people stop paying them, they are just going to shut off the servers and call it a day. They will say that it just isn't worth spending further money on development without a sufficient player base. Never in a million years will they think, "Gosh, maybe we should have listened to the community. Let's start doing that now, invest another 10-20 million dollars, redesign the game and see how it goes".

Eventually if we are lucky, PGI will give up the license and maybe, just maybe another publisher/developer will come in and design us the Mechwarrior/Battletech game we have all been waiting for.

Well ...that would prove they never really cared about the IP like they swore they did...it was just a Cash Cow Opportunity for them that they could use to take advantage of older fans in their 30s and 40s who have enough disposable income to relive some of their youth...If that's the Case let it Die then,The IP Deserves Better than this ....its proven that this game will sell enough it just needs the right Game Developers who will be faithful to it

[CocoaJin]

So the devs were supposed to stop paying bills and put a good chunk of their staff on hiatus while they secured a longer contract? Yes, it would have been better for them to inform us of the delay and why...but what was done in the interim would have been the same regardless...produce and sell content in order to maintain revenue through out the wait and see period.

You want to convince yourself it was some malicious intent to make a money grab, when it was nothing more than making the best of a unknown situation while maintaining their revenue stream to see them through to the point they could resume CW development. What do you propose they should have done during the writing period? Keep in mind, anything they would have done would cost money.

[TOGSolid]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

So the devs were supposed to stop paying bills and put a good chunk of their staff on hiatus while they secured a longer contract? Yes, it would have been better for them to inform us of the delay and why...but what was done in the interim would have been the same regardless...produce and sell content in order to maintain revenue through out the wait and see period.

You want to convince yourself it was some malicious intent to make a money grab, when it was nothing more than making the best of a unknown situation while maintaining their revenue stream to see them through to the point they could resume CW development. What do you propose they should have done during the writing period? Keep in mind, anything they would have done would cost money.

So you're saying it's totally ok to string along your customers, take their money, and not actually know if you'll even be able to deliver on what you're promising?

I got some swamp land in New Orleans you might be interested in.

[CocoaJin]

Green Mamba, on 12 August 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Well ...that would prove they never really cared about the IP like they swore they did...it was just a Cash Cow Opportunity for them that they could use to take advantage of older fans in their 30s and 40s who have enough disposable income to relive some of their youth...If that's the Case let it Die then,The IP Deserves Better than this ....its proven that this game will sell enough it just needs the right Game Developers who will be faithful to it

No it wouldn't. It would prove those who require PGI to keep MWO profitable are making sound business decisions if the game can't justify the investments needed to keep it running. Devs can't do a labor of love unless they people who pull their strings makes money off it.

This game ain't justba game, it has to put food or tables, keep roofs over homes, and execs eating sushi off of prostitutes...it will never happen unless it can pull its weight...no matter how much our "2 pay checks away from being on the streets" devs love the game.

You guys complain about this stuff like games are a government entitlement, here solely for the greater good of gamers and the IP...its existence is only as good as it's last quarter earnings, some of you need to move out of your mom's basement and get a grip on the real world and stop pretending games happen because of some other existential idea of warm fuzzies, rainbows and butterflies. If it don't make dollars, it dont make sense.

I promise the devs dont want to run this game into the ground, or see it fail...this game provides them a living, if it gets flushed, some them get flushed too. The last thing they want to do is go looking for another job.

Edited by CocoaJin, 12 August 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[Green Mamba]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

No it wouldn't. It would prove those who require PGI to keep MWO profitable are making sound business decisions if the game can't justify the investments needed to keep it running. Devs can't do a labor of love unless they people who pull their strings makes money off it.

This game ain't justba game, it has to put food or tables, keep roofs over homes, and execs eating sushi off of prostitutes...it will never happen unless it can pull its weight...no matter how much our "2 pay checks away from being on the streets" devs love the game.

You guys complain about this stuff like games are a government entitlement, here solely for the greater good of gamers and the IP...its existence is only as good as it's last quarter earnings, some of you need to move out of your mom's basement and get a grip on the real world and stop pretending games happen because of some other existential idea of warm fuzzies, rainbows and butterflies. If it don't make dollars, it dont make sense.

I promise the devs dont want to run this game into the ground, or see it fail...this game provides them a living, if it gets flushed, some them get flushed too. The last thing they want to do is go looking for another job.

Sorry they have Had Plenty of Chances. Sound Business Decisions ..LET THE GAME DIE .I played the Other(Better) MW's I know better ..I stand by my Cash Cow Statement.they have proven it time and time again with those Good Business Decisions you Speak of

Edited by Green Mamba, 12 August 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[CocoaJin]

TOGSolid, on 12 August 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

So you're saying it's totally ok to string along your customers, take their money, and not actually know if you'll even be able to deliver on what you're promising?

I got some swamp land in New Orleans you might be interested in.

Did you read that? I'm pretty sure I said it would have been best for them to tell us what was up. I'm saying the result during the wait and see period is the same if they had told us or not...the player base would have remained,mthe devs would have still had to produce revenue content to pay the bills, people would have paid for the mechs they wanted as they were released, we would have still been playing because if we didn't want to be here, we'd have left anyway.

The prospect of CW on the way wouldn't have kept us here spending money if we didn't like what the devs had put out up to that point. This was no money grab, it was paying the bills while they secured phase #2 of development.

[Mazerius]

pwnface, on 12 August 2014 - 04:15 PM, said:

This is my favorite part:

"At IGP, we've demonstrated that an independent company can also run a program that can be very successful. This is the next level, if you like, of customer engagement. The closer you can get to your customers, the more they're willing to embrace your products and invest in them."

IGP bought an IP that has a particularly loyal fanbase which is the only reason this game is still alive. Their "next level ... of customer engagement" is IGNORE.

Sort of an amusing line from IGP there, considering they were the ones telling certain PGI folks that they were getting "too close to some of the playerbase"

Edited by Mazerius, 12 August 2014 - 08:07 PM.

[TOGSolid]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Did you read that? I'm pretty sure I said it would have been best for them to tell us what was up. I'm saying the result during the wait and see period is the same if they had told us or not...the player base would have remained,mthe devs would have still had to produce revenue content to pay the bills, people would have paid for the mechs they wanted as they were released, we would have still been playing because if we didn't want to be here, we'd have left anyway.

The prospect of CW on the way wouldn't have kept us here spending money if we didn't like what the devs had put out up to that point. This was no money grab, it was paying the bills while they secured phase #2 of development.

Last PAX I had Bryan and Russ tell me, to my face, that CW would be coming within a month or two of that talk. They were straight up lying because we can see now just how far off CW was at that point. Telling us all that all sorts of features were "coming soon" during this phase is pretty much "stringing people along 101."

[CocoaJin]

TOGSolid, on 12 August 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

Last PAX I had Bryan and Russ tell me, to my face, that CW would be coming within a month or two of that talk. They were straight up lying because we can see now just how far off CW was at that point. Telling us all that all sorts of features were "coming soon" during this phase is pretty much "stringing people along 101."

Agreed, it was a bad call...it was handled poorly. Sometimes people fail to step up to deliver what they know will be poorly received news. Shame on them...still doesn't mean this is a money grab. Doesn't mean they aren't plugging away at CW at this time, doesn't mean this game can't be what we expect it to be and what they pitched to us as a community. What I know for a fact, if we stop supporting them, everything we hoped for is gone.

I'm willing to forgive and make a fresh start, I see the potential and I'm willing to shoot for it....because ultimately, any relationship worth having requires someone to stop being so damn emotional and take steps in a positive direction to remedy the problem. In this case, a prerequisite is that we need to support PGI to give us a shot at righting the ship.

[verybad]

Well, I've paid them what, about $500.

they've gotten way more out of me for this game than they deserve. The game is crap compared to many other $60 or cheaper games I've had.

I'll help them if they make it a game. Currently it's a DEMO IMO.It's got not depth, it's boring. We've told them enough times what we want. They want to make tired, monetizing stuff with every step. They've had 2 years+ to show us what they want to make, they've not done anything more than promise us empty BS over and over regarding non monetizing, but depth increasing features.

It's like fishing in a desert.

[wanderer]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Spend money

Yes, I'm sure they'll give you that Flea in your sig eventually if you do. Probably in 60 to 90 days.

People spend money now because humans throw good money after bad in the hopes that things will change.

[TLBFestus]

CacoaJin has made it clear that he will support the no matter what they do because he's afraid of living in a world without a MechWarrior game.

I wonder if he is the same way with other products/services in his life?

For instance his Mechanics;

"Hey Mechanic, I wanted to talk to you about that car you sold me. You told me it was a 2 door convertible, but it's actually a 4 door sedan".

"But it's a car, just like we promised. By the way, while we were doing the tune up for you, we decided to paint it too. Here's the bill"

"But I brought it in to fix a flat".

"Heck, three out of 4 tires are in good shape, you needed that paint man! These are my kids, Huey, Duewy, and Louise (3 surly, unkempt children with 5 o'clock shadows barely look up from their iPhones), and I need you to pay for that paint, for the children."

"But you painted it pink and used a paintbrush!"

"Hey, I did the best I could at the time, it's not like I'm not trying, you have to trust me. Tell you what, I'll do it again for 10% less and this time you can pick the color from any of these!" The mechanic points at 3 cans of Benjamin Moore house paint.

"Well, I wouldn't want you to go out of business because I'd feel personally responsible for starving those poor, dear children of yours", CoacoaJin says. "Besides if your garage closes where would I find another place that cares about me so damned much?"

[CocoaJin]

Apples and oranges. That is a product that is paid for after services have been rendered and after it meets an explicit state of being complete as agreed upon by contract.

This is a product with a flexible and changing road map that lays out a path for a desired end product. In the meantime, it's completeness is paid for through micro transactions to fund the dev path through its numerous iterations until the desired or some variation of that end goal is reached. These games operate on faith, patience, communication and flexibility by all involved.

I can live without a MechWarrior game, I did it just find...and could do it again. But I want a MechWarrior mmo, and I realize the process of developing a good game as an mmo and F2P takes time. I'd rather work with what's here and is reasonably viable, than throw it away in hopes of another one popping up. I'm not afraid of sticking it out, my patience and attention span doesn't drive me to bail just because things get tough. I dont see any evidence that the devs lack the resources and means to continue developing this game toward what they promised. When the devs give up, then I'll walk away...in the meantime, I'll trust that their need to pay bills and feed their families over-rides some inexplicable desire to sabotage their own employment.

[verybad]

I think this says it pretty well.

[CocoaJin]

wanderer, on 12 August 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yes, I'm sure they'll give you that Flea in your sig eventually if you do. Probably in 60 to 90 days.

People spend money now because humans throw good money after bad in the hopes that things will change.

If the Flea comes out, I'll buy it. I won't spend money on stuff I don't want in hopes they'll get to what I want. Supporting the devs doesn't mean gifting them money on products you don't like...the thing is to support the devs in the things you like. I don't like Assaults, so I won't buy one...but I will campaign for the things I do like. That's me communicating. If they release something I like, I'll buy it...that's me supporting. I won't hold off on a purchase in protest for something else in the game I disagree with....that's cutting off my nose to spite my face, especially when things are so much in flux that what I disagree with can be switched to my favor months later(and possibly back in shortly after). But I accept the changes, it's part of the growing pains of fleshing out a better experience for tomorrow...I'm a big boy, I can take it. Not to mention, every competitive game does it, you can't getaway from it, so I won't fall into the grass is greener mentality...it's actually easier and more timely to fix this mess than wait for another and inevitably find ourselves here again with nothing to show for it.

I've been here so many times, with so many games....the future is here, with a reasonably developed and viable game. Throwing this away only means years until we are here yet again, with a different developer, griping over different content, still going through the balancing conundrum over different issues, no closer to our desired game because we keep throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Let's commit to fixing what we have until it's determine there is no longer the means to do so...other someone else shows us better. MWO is an investment, not just a purchase.

[verybad]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Let's commit to fixing what we have until it's determine there is no longer the means to do so...other someone else shows us better. MWO is an investment, not just a purchase.

WE have nothing to do with committing to anything. We're not a part of making this game, I've invested as much as 10 new COMPLETE games cost. I'll admit I made a mistake, mainly because of my long love for the IP. I believed what they told me and bought into something that they STILL haven't delivered on.

If they deliver into EVERYTHING they promised during beta well I've STILL paid them the equivalent of 10 games, so I don't feel bad if I don't pay any more.

THEY are the ones that have to deliver, not me. I've done more than enough, and so have many other fans.

Edited by verybad, 12 August 2014 - 11:39 PM.

[Henree]

Quote

it will involve treating the customers as if they are investors in your product. At that point, that's what they are. To some extent, the companies that can manage those steps are also likely the groups that are going to be successful with the funds that they raise."

Zmak adds, "There's a responsibility that needs to be taken very seriously. You don't go into these with a casual approach. There's almost an amateur approach now to some fundraising, which I think is highly risky. We need to recognize that people are giving us their money for a reason, and that value statement has to be there for us to be successful."

http://www.gamasutra...Kickstarter.php

kickstarter is/was a great idea but then people like igp apply a business model to it where slow development actually generates profit by managing the products' community to invest to speed up development which never happens and generates more profit and more profit over a longer period than when they would actually deliver, or so they think. MWO started as a minimal viable product with a closed beta then progressed to being a minimal product in open beta and as we can see, beyond virtual assets which are being monothised by IGP has not progressed at all beyond being a minimal viable product. Minimal investment for maximum profit. PGI is not really to blame here, probably given the time they had they could have made this a huge success if it fit in PGI's business model. It is just the their management and monetization of large communities that is ruining this IP.

Just look at:
http://store.steampo...?featured_app=1
and
https://www.mwtactics.com/

Both IGP products, both paid for by the MWO founders and both still in BETA.

Edited by Henri Schoots, 13 August 2014 - 04:13 AM.

[CocoaJin]

verybad, on 12 August 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

WE have nothing to do with committing to anything. We're not a part of making this game, I've invested as much as 10 new COMPLETE games cost. I'll admit I made a mistake, mainly because of my long love for the IP. I believed what they told me and bought into something that they STILL haven't delivered on.

If they deliver into EVERYTHING they promised during beta well I've STILL paid them the equivalent of 10 games, so I don't feel bad if I don't pay any more.

THEY are the ones that have to deliver, not me. I've done more than enough, and so have many other fans.

Then you've walked into this relationship with unrealistic expectations. This isn't just a purchase, where you pay and get what you get. It's not a cheeseburger, it's a relationship. One that's built on gaming, but a relationship none the less. It thrives on the same basic principles, investment(in this case, time, emotion, finances), communication, patience, trust, forgiveness, faith, vulnerability, commitment. It requires some combination or all of the above from both sides to work.

You don't always do it because it's pretty or easy, at times it requires you to stick it out for a period where it makes you sick to the stomach, but you do it because the reward of having this thing pan out in the end is worth it. Why, because sometimes your other half drops the ball, sometimes they make mistakes...but if the desired end goal is better than what'd you have if ya'll parted, then stick it out,grow from the experience, both parties will be better off because of it.

[TLBFestus]

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

We have to support these guys, emotionally and financially...or we lose em and our beloved MechWarrior gaming for years yet again...maybe a decade or more.

CocoaJin, on 12 August 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

I can live without a MechWarrior game, I did it just find...and could do it again. But I want a MechWarrior mmo, and I realize the process of developing a good game as an mmo and F2P takes time.




I dont see any evidence that the devs lack the resources and means to continue developing this game toward what they promised.

You certainly sound desperate to support them at all costs. Support them emotionally? Seriously? I live not to far away from PGI, you want I should go over there with donuts and hugs for them in your name?

And, no, they do not lack for resources, and that is precisely why they continue to do things the way they do them, because they see no need to change due to the fact desperate fans keep "supporting" them regardless of their stupidity. In doing so you re-inforce that they don't need to change. I'm not advocating NO money for them, but they need to be bled a bit to encourage them to smarten the eff up.

In the end, you are entitled to your opinon, vexing as i find it. I also know that I can't change it. I will leave that to PGI to eventually do for me. Until then, enjoy the game. I do, but I don't spend a dime on it until they smarten up.

[Heffay]

I'll continue to support the game as long as I find it enjoyable.

I'm not going to spend money to keep PGI in business.

i'm not going to hold back my dollars because someone else is upset about the game.

Fortunately, the game is incredibly fun. And I'm happy because PGI has been making great strides this year, so my entertainment budget has been spent very well this year.