94 replies to this topic

[Nidalap Live]

Well, the team challenge (aka reality) is showing what nonsense the LRM apologists are spewing here on the forums (aka pure epeen BS). Sure, if you spend the entire fight hiding behind a building, the LRM's can't touch you. Great advice. Now you just have to get your entire team to do likewise, and now the match won't be decided by how many LRM boats get brought to the fight. Absolutely brilliant advice!

Oh, and don't EVER engage another mech, you might have to come out into the open for the LRM rain of death, and according to the dubious advice given here, only a noob who deserves death ever leaves the side of a building.

Sure, if the entire game consisted of premades that could count on having ECM and multiple redundant AMS, Caustic Valley wouldn't be the "well, who brought the most rain?" map, but this is not that game. And even if you followed every unrealistic, pie-in-the sky "wisdom" spewed in this thread, that doesn't protect your teammates from remote-control autokills.

The primary problem is the unrealistic, non-canon free C3 provided to every mech and extends to missile locks as well. Maybe if LRM boats had to put down their jelly doughnut, move out from behind the mountain and work for a lock, we wouldn't see 9kph 180-tube monstrosities that should have been laughed out of the mechbay(I exaggerate, but unfortuantely not by much).

You say that being a noob is responsible for LRM kills? Well, that's a great introduction to the game for new players! Stray just a little too far out in the open, SPLAT SPLAT SPLAT from an enemy you never saw. I don't know about you, but that would make me go right out and buy a couple hero mechs to keep this great game going!

What's that you say? I should have bought radar deprivation? Two points: As mentioned before, LRMs splat noobs dead. You know, the ones who don't have the XP to get deprivation? Also, if a weapon system is so effective to propel a counter-module for that weapon to the top of the must-get heap, then doesn't that prove that the weapon system has a problem?

This thread needs 100% less smug "LRM's aren't the problem, you are" crap from people who know better, if they've ever pugged.

Edited by Nidalap Live, 06 September 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Lrms OP
Example:
These were all in a row btw. (IN A ROW!!!!)






Tell me that isnt OP and you will instantly be declared an imbicile.
Build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...17b32d00f58ac78
(uses lower arm actuators but smurfy is broken)

[Angry Kylo Ren]

NARC is the issue, LRMs themselves are fine.

Currently narc is almost a death sentence unless you are lucky enough to find the right cover.

[Kjudoon]

Funny. I'm running LRMs and seeing a minimum of 3-5 ECM a match which has reduced damage for them and effectiveness to garbage. AMS is stripping 40-70% of the missiles out the sky so when 1000 missiles go forth, I might see 300-400 damage at best.

Yep. Soooo OP. Havent died to them yet.

makbeer, on 06 September 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

NARC is the issue, LRMs themselves are fine.

Currently narc is almost a death sentence unless you are lucky enough to find the right cover.

Narc? Want to know the 100% counter to that? Cover.
Want to know the next best counter to Narc? ECM.

[DeathlyEyes]

They are too easy to use right now. That needs to be fixed. Make firing Arcs to be a bit worse so you have to be on high ground to shoot over cover. Holding lock needs to be harder as well.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 07 September 2014 - 01:51 AM.

[Anassi]

Kjudoon, on 06 September 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Narc? Want to know the 100% counter to that? Cover.
Want to know the next best counter to Narc? ECM.

- Cover: It's the near the beginning of the match, you are in your fat Assault mech and get narced by a Raven passing by. Dead. Nothing you can do about it. The rain will destroy you. If you are very, very lucky you are in a map with lots of high LRM cover (like Crimson Strait, River City, Frozen City). If not (Caustic Valley, Alpine, Canyon depending on where you are) you go down without any chance for rescue. Simple as that.

- ECM: Totally out of your hands. Yes, ECM is a great NARC counter. But it depends on whether someone a) brings this and uses it to cover you with it. I've had tons of games where I was either without any ECM in the group or the ECM preferred to get his ass shot off behind the enemy lines. If that happens on Caustic Valley you are as good as dead. And no, you cannot always "bring your own ECM". There are exactly eight variants (Commando 2D, Spider 5D, Raven 3L, Cicada 5M, Atlas DDC, all three Kit Foxes) that can even carry an ECM in the first place. Most people kinda want to play something else from time to time. So yes, it's an awesome counter but depends way too much on other people to be reliable.

Edited by Anassi, 07 September 2014 - 02:47 PM.

[kosmos1214]

Nidalap Live, on 06 September 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Well, the team challenge (aka reality) is showing what nonsense the LRM apologists are spewing here on the forums (aka pure epeen BS). Sure, if you spend the entire fight hiding behind a building, the LRM's can't touch you. Great advice. Now you just have to get your entire team to do likewise, and now the match won't be decided by how many LRM boats get brought to the fight. Absolutely brilliant advice!

Oh, and don't EVER engage another mech, you might have to come out into the open for the LRM rain of death, and according to the dubious advice given here, only a noob who deserves death ever leaves the side of a building.

Sure, if the entire game consisted of premades that could count on having ECM and multiple redundant AMS, Caustic Valley wouldn't be the "well, who brought the most rain?" map, but this is not that game. And even if you followed every unrealistic, pie-in-the sky "wisdom" spewed in this thread, that doesn't protect your teammates from remote-control autokills.

The primary problem is the unrealistic, non-canon free C3 provided to every mech and extends to missile locks as well. Maybe if LRM boats had to put down their jelly doughnut, move out from behind the mountain and work for a lock, we wouldn't see 9kph 180-tube monstrosities that should have been laughed out of the mechbay(I exaggerate, but unfortuantely not by much).

You say that being a noob is responsible for LRM kills? Well, that's a great introduction to the game for new players! Stray just a little too far out in the open, SPLAT SPLAT SPLAT from an enemy you never saw. I don't know about you, but that would make me go right out and buy a couple hero mechs to keep this great game going!

What's that you say? I should have bought radar deprivation? Two points: As mentioned before, LRMs splat noobs dead. You know, the ones who don't have the XP to get deprivation? Also, if a weapon system is so effective to propel a counter-module for that weapon to the top of the must-get heap, then doesn't that prove that the weapon system has a problem?

This thread needs 100% less smug "LRM's aren't the problem, you are" crap from people who know better, if they've ever pugged.

and you jest proved you dont know what you are talking about lrms are not op neither is narc or tag or ecm or ams
here why ever lrms are so effective in pugs you messed up it has nothing to do with there lack of skill its has to do with you making a mistake and geting FOCUS FIRED witch i some thing some people have been trying to get pug to do since the beginning of time and you can focus fire with ANY WEAPON IN THE GAME but lrms are easy to get people to focus fire with

edit for spelling mistake

Edited by kosmos1214, 07 September 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[Tim East]

I dunno. I feel like any LRM shot at my Locust is an LRM wasted. They pretty nearly never hit me, and I expect them to do so even less now that I have obtained the coveted radar deprivation module. Even the clan ones that can sort of hit me a little bit when I'm right up on a boat's face aren't all that bad.

[terrycloth]

I just want to mention that we're not using 'free C3', we're using canon 'spot target' mechanics (any number of friendlies can fire LRMs at a single target designated by a spotting mech).

[Nidalap Live]

terrycloth, on 08 September 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I just want to mention that we're not using 'free C3', we're using canon 'spot target' mechanics (any number of friendlies can fire LRMs at a single target designated by a spotting mech).

And since you're quoting canon, in canon, what are the requirements for a mech to be a spotting mech, one that can allow any number of friendlies to track a target they can't see?

Hmm? Forget that part, did we?

kosmos1214, on 07 September 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

and you jest proved you dont know what you are talking (multiple pure opinions follow)

And you just proved that you haven't a clue what the word proof means. Proof requires facts. You may think that "lrms are not op neither is narc or tag or ecm or ams" is a fact, but even if you personally accept it as true, that doesn't make it a fact.

kosmos1214, on 07 September 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

you can focus fire with ANY WEAPON IN THE GAME but lrms are easy to get people to focus fire with

Considering that every OTHER weapon in the game requires LOS and aiming skills to focus fire, I think we can go ahead and call this the official gross understatement of the entire thread.

So yes, being able to stuff a heavy with so many missiles that it can't even waddle fast enough to get it's own LOS is a balance problem. Have you been asleep during the discussion?

Edited by Nidalap Live, 09 September 2014 - 06:23 AM.

[Parazaine]

I disagree with the OP. Almost invariably, LRM complainers have never used them, have never learned just how hard it is to be effective with them, how much actual skill it takes (against good opponents that is)

I have used them extensively but i have also used brawlers extensively and I have yet to unlock the Radar Deprivation module and i also do NOT use AMS.....why? because it (imo) wastes weight being unecessary if you use cover efficiently, i don't even religiously follow ECM mechs although i will use the cover if it exists.

Yes, a few Clan mechs with clan LRM's can ruin your day if you are caught out in the open with no cover faster than their IS equivilents (who can also do the same at reduced effect).

If i find myself in the open being LRMed to death, i can generally blame myself for poor positioning and/or our team being at an ECM disadvantage.

Again, the complainers are almost always to blame for not playing smart, not using cover, not utilizing ECM cover, charging the enemy in their 40kph assault in the open etc etc.

The best way to learn how to counter LRM's and also to discover that they are NOT easy-mode is to actually try using them.

It takes far more skill to be effective with LRM's than to blindly charge the enemy in an assault mech with direct-fire weapons. Personally i think new players should hav eto earn the right to pilot assaults as they tend to pick up a lot of bad habits if they jump straight into them (sorry off-topic)

[Nidalap Live]

Parazaine, on 09 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

I disagree with the OP. Almost invariably, LRM complainers have never used them, have never learned just how hard it is to be effective with them, how much actual skill it takes (against good opponents that is)

I have used them extensively but i have also used brawlers extensively and I have yet to unlock the Radar Deprivation module and i also do NOT use AMS.....why? because it (imo) wastes weight being unecessary if you use cover efficiently, i don't even religiously follow ECM mechs although i will use the cover if it exists.

Yes, a few Clan mechs with clan LRM's can ruin your day if you are caught out in the open with no cover faster than their IS equivilents (who can also do the same at reduced effect).

If i find myself in the open being LRMed to death, i can generally blame myself for poor positioning and/or our team being at an ECM disadvantage.

Again, the complainers are almost always to blame for not playing smart, not using cover, not utilizing ECM cover, charging the enemy in their 40kph assault in the open etc etc.

The best way to learn how to counter LRM's and also to discover that they are NOT easy-mode is to actually try using them.

It takes far more skill to be effective with LRM's than to blindly charge the enemy in an assault mech with direct-fire weapons. Personally i think new players should hav eto earn the right to pilot assaults as they tend to pick up a lot of bad habits if they jump straight into them (sorry off-topic)

One last time.

NO. ONE. FREAKING. CARES. ABOUT. LRM. IN. HIGH. ELO.

So nothing... NOTHING you just said addresses where the problem is. Yes, LRM's aren't a tournament/high ELO weapon. You've been granted that point already. Can we move on the the other 90% of the server. please?

If LRM apologists want to be taken seriously, they need to stop running away from the argument, and stop telling us how LRM's aren't OP if they're being used against opponents whose entire team is rich enough to all sport radar dep, coordinated enough to bring ECM mechs, and savvy enough to never get caught in the open even in the heat of battle.

Parazaine, on 09 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

If i find myself in the open being LRMed to death, i can generally blame myself for poor positioning and/or our team being at an ECM disadvantage.

Do you also blame yourself when your teammates aren't as wise and omnipotent as you, O Lord Of Everlasting Cover? That would be the other blue dots on the map. The ones that keep disappearing while you're safe behind cover.

Also, one wonders how you manage to take the center of Terra Therma without leaving cover... oh wait. Now we know which kind of a player you are on that map.

Edited by Nidalap Live, 10 September 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[terrycloth]

No actual requirements, but the spotting mech gets a tiny penalty to accuracy. Since we're not using dice rolls there's no real way to implement that.

[Draken X]

I recently came across with a LRM boat Warhawk + TAG. It had the most kills in the team, and owned almost everyone in my team. When I tried to nailed down an Atlas with a few teammates, that guy flanked me from the back and pinned me down with a shitloads of LRMs on me. Was it me doing poorly after gone AWOL for a year? Or was it just me got unlucky?

Is that another reason why Clan mechs are OP?

Edited by Draken X, 10 September 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[YueFei]

Nidalap Live, on 10 September 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

One last time.

NO. ONE. FREAKING. CARES. ABOUT. LRM. IN. HIGH. ELO.

So nothing... NOTHING you just said addresses where the problem is. Yes, LRM's aren't a tournament/high ELO weapon. You've been granted that point already. Can we move on the the other 90% of the server. please?

This is why you fail. At life.

Someone will demonstrate a way to overcome a problem, and you'll simply whine that you don't care what better players are doing. That's a fantastic way to make sure your learning stagnates and you halt your own progress.

The only time something is truly OP is when the top players, after experimenting and wracking their brains for weeks/months, can't come up with a way to counter it other than using it themselves.

Everything else that people complain about being OP? Lazy ******** who can't be bothered to improve or adjust their play.

I'm an engineer. If I had your kind of attitude at work, I'd be giving up at the slightest difficulty, failing to deliver, and get fired. Instead, I push, I get creative, I keep trying, and I succeed.

Cowboy up, man.

Edited by YueFei, 10 September 2014 - 10:34 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Nidalap Live, on 10 September 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

If LRM apologists want to be taken seriously, they need to stop running away from the argument, and stop telling us how LRM's aren't OP if they're being used against opponents whose entire team is rich enough to all sport radar dep, coordinated enough to bring ECM mechs, and savvy enough to never get caught in the open even in the heat of battle.

The same can be said for the LRMQQBrigade.

You accuse us of 'running away from the argument' while you guys can't seem to L2P, if you want to go down that road.

LRMs are a feast or famine weapon. It depends on conditions from the map (yes some maps are dramatically better for LRMs than others) and the skill of their opponents. The build of the enemy mech matters too. But do you run LRMs successfully? You can spam them all day long with minor success at low levels. But the instant AMS and ECM start creeping in, those windows quickly shut down the LRM boats.

LRMs aren't OP because they are only functional when in groups of 20 or higher thanks to AMS. This costs some to all of the damage to be cut off by sheets of broken AMS cutting through buildings, mountains, tunnels and other mechs where they never should be activated.

A single piece of equipment weighing 1.5 tons and 3 slots can almost completely shut down 20 tons of weapons and ammo per mech, and working in concert it's almost impossible to crack without junk like BAP, counter ECM, Tag and Artemis... and those are all situational at best.

Locking a target is step one even when you don't get it yourself you still must wait for the computer to lock on, and that means focusing possibly to your detriment or run till you find a safe spot to shoot from. Having the patience to also hold target and not engage other enemies while missiles are in flight, or lose lock and the possible damage because something more critical comes up is a constant nuisance. Contrary to what other LRMhatorz have said, the weapon is NOT fire and forget. Ever.

LRMs are the slowest weapon in the game. This means you might have to go from lock to impact exposed for up to 10 seconds. If ECM is present, it may be even longer.

To be successful, you have to dedicate yourself to the weapon on that mech thanks to the counters. That means XL engines making you squishier than brawlers. You have to be an ammo can, making you more prone to ammo explosions. If you're too slow, you can't reposition fast enough to fire on the enemy that took cover or adjust longer distances to get new firing solutions because of overhead obstructions in your LRM flight path.

These are little things most brawlers have no idea or care about doing, or need to worry about. They just twitch and shoot. The most complex their skills get is in rolling damage and aiming at damaged components. They don't have to gamble whether the range will give you the loft to fire over an obstacle, or whether it will go to high and hit an obstruction. They don't have to worry about maintaining lock while 3 full shots flutter lazilly in the air to target while the battle is shifting and you need to help your buddies working that enemy over and stripping armor can make the difference.

So instead of whining and claiming that we are ignoring the argument, you re-evaluate your argument and maybe we can start again, if this argument doesn't end up locked, archived or Ktowned first as it is yet another in a long list of worthless LRMsux whines.

Edited by Kjudoon, 10 September 2014 - 11:16 PM.

[Star Colonel Silver Surat]

The only problem I have with LRMs, but it's a big one, is the ridiculous, game ruining screen shake and blinding flashes that Clan LRMs cause. A lot of incoming missiles completely obscure your entire screen and remove your ability to either fight or even seek cover. It's absurd. It's the same effect that made streak cats so OP back in the day (of course many streak users denied there was any problem with them). No other weapon in the game causes such screen distortion, not even small caliber acs or Ac20.

Most people have been saying "reduce the impulse" since the Clans released but PGI does nothing. The longer they delay implementing this simple fix, the more likely we'll see an overnerf that renders LRMs completely useless damage wise again.

Just eliminate the over the top screen shake and impact flashes, and all will be well in LRM land again.

Edited by Star Colonel Silver Surat, 10 September 2014 - 11:26 PM.

[ShinVector]

kosmos1214, on 07 September 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

and you jest proved you dont know what you are talking about lrms are not op neither is narc or tag or ecm or ams
here why ever lrms are so effective in pugs you messed up it has nothing to do with there lack of skill its has to do with you making a mistake and geting FOCUS FIRED witch i some thing some people have been trying to get pug to do since the beginning of time and you can focus fire with ANY WEAPON IN THE GAME but lrms are easy to get people to focus fire with

edit for spelling mistake

Yeah.. Kinda EZ to 'focus fire' with them Locks and indirect fire ability... Too bad most of the other weapons don't have ability.

[Draken X]

Seems like people has issues with Clan LRMs... Since I left the game for a year (and now I came back recently), I'm curious of why Clan LRMs were fired in a volley "stream" instead of in salvo from te first place?

[BigFatGator]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 10 September 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

The only problem I have with LRMs, but it's a big one, is the ridiculous, game ruining screen shake and blinding flashes that Clan LRMs cause.

Absolutely- and not just clan ones, but also the silly 6xLRM5 chainfire launcher trick on some mechs that causes screenshakelock. It's just plain silly. You get shaken even if only one missle out of 5 makes it through your AMS.