77 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 August 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

That many? I have over half the number of drops and have only had my ammo detonated 5 times, and only 3 resulted in death.

One was an oddball where AC/20 ammo in the side torso of a BoomJager build was detonated. It was CASE protected (I was new). I didn't lose the side torso and I didn't die.

2000+ in Jagers. And a few 1000 more in SRM heavy MEchs like my Orion. But probably half are from my Ember. Before I moved the ammo out of the legs when I had that genius epiphany....people usually leg lights....lol.

MauttyKoray, on 13 August 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

The fact is that it is based solely on crit chance. If you're getting chewed up my MGs then there is a high chance your ammo will probably explode because they deal a high rate of critical shots.

even when their crit is hit, ammo has a 10% chance of exploding, unless something has changed. So even if the slot it is in gets crit, 1 in 10 chance.

Whah.

[FDJustin]

OP's not wrong to think giving all clan mechs a free 4 tonnes (Although I'm sure it would be half if it was equipment, since all clan equipment is made out of aerogels) of slotless equipment is unbalanced. You have to look at that sort of thing and ask "What's the trade off? What's the impact?"
Ammo explosions are fairly rare, that limits the usefulness somewhat. Impact - Medium low.
Although each part has a free C.A.S.E, many / most clan mechs are hardwired with sub-optimal structure slots that would be dynamic on an IS mech. This can shove the ammo out of the most optimal areas, CT and head.

To me that balances it. It's a minor inconvenience for their other equipment (Minor because it's all so small), and a major hinderence on placing ammo.

[TOGSolid]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 August 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

That many? I have over half the number of drops and have only had my ammo detonated 5 times, and only 3 resulted in death.

One was an oddball where AC/20 ammo in the side torso of a BoomJager build was detonated. It was CASE protected (I was new). I didn't lose the side torso and I didn't die.

Yeah, I can think of only a couple ammo explosions since I originally started playing because you really can't forget an ammo detonation. On minute you're there, the next minute you look like the T-1000 after getting hit with a grenade round.

Free CASE is definitely not a big issue with the Clans.

Edited by TOGSolid, 14 August 2014 - 12:04 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Atm you deisgn a mech, and decide where to put your ammo and IF you want to use case, you do actually already calculate this risk. Or do you not?

Mister Blastman, on 13 August 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

Ammo in your head helps you eject faster.

No one aims normally for the head so probably the most save place for ammo. But those who put ammo in their fet, well bad idea, because when people know and expect it to be there, its a nice area to shoot at.

Do no why people are scared to use case on their Is mechs. because of 0,5t more space? hell, its worth it.

[FDJustin]

I usually do aim for the head myself. I only expect to skim it, and mostly hit CT. That's OK, since the idea is to cause a bit of blindness while I try to get into position.

Pretty sure other people do the same. They usually don't actually hit my cockpit, but I do see laser spray on the glass while they're trying to kill my side toros. Or face if they were off centre...

I love the eject faster joke. But seriously... It's pretty safe in your head, unless you're not going to chew through it all. If I recall correctly, and if it wasn't changed, ammo has a priority system. It goes: Head, CT, ST (I don't know which it prefers), then... Limbs. I'd assume arms before legs, don't know.

[waterfowl]

We've been dealing with ammo explosions since beta, it's fine!

Just be smart with your ammo. If you have legs full of kabooms don't brawl, or run a light ...

I'll never forget that time an LRM trebuchet ran in front of my ember, one of my MG rounds hit an ammo cannister and made a chain reaction kaboom, all the way to his center torso

Scratx, on 13 August 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

You mean we don't already lose the part that gets an ammo explosion in?

News to me.

As for that Orion, maybe he should've equipped CASE.

he'd be legless, armless, and STless on one side probably wouldn't have helped. Case is pretty garbage unless you can zombie really well

Aresye, on 13 August 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

I've gotten an ammo explosion once in my entire time playing this game. Now gauss explosions on the other hand I've gotten quite often.

I don't think CASE does anything to protect from gauss explosions IIRC.

it does. It's treated as an ammo explosion, so it's actually helpful on mechs with gauss in the ST

Edited by waterfowl, 14 August 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[waterfowl]

El Bandito, on 13 August 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

Small advantages add up, Bishop. Not only Clan mechs come with a free CASE, they don't go and meet the Kerenskys when the ammo within an arm or a leg blows, unlike the IS XL.

Miniscule stuff, but it is there. The question is, do the IS mechs have enough advantages of their own to offset the advantages in the Clan chassis. I'm personally waiting for September.

In return for CASE, clan mechs can't change anything. My ****** Summoner has 5 tons and slots locked with jump jets, as well as 4 slots locked for heat sinks. I'd give my left nut to free up that 9 tons. Take the damn CASE lol

[El Bandito]

waterfowl, on 14 August 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

In return for CASE, clan mechs can't change anything. My ****** Summoner has 5 tons and slots locked with jump jets, as well as 4 slots locked for heat sinks. I'd give my left nut to free up that 9 tons. Take the damn CASE lol

You had left out the less vulnerable XL, 2 slot DHS, omni-pods, 7 slot Endo and FF, very efficient lvl 1 TC, in addition to the free CASE. Personally I'd want all that in exchange for a locked XL engine and internal/armor for my Fatlas and Catapults.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 August 2014 - 01:05 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

ExplodedZombie, on 13 August 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

One of the true imbalances for IS vs Clan, in my opinion, is the free C.A.S.E. Clan receives
...

You've lost me there tbh...
As IS player you're saying that IS ammo explosions are more costy than Clan ones?
Do you got clan mechs, cause I can bet you don't - because I will enlighten you on a quite simple fact:
The only mech that can put SOME(two slots) ammo in the legs is the DWF.
The nova and the storm crow has a single free slot in the heads.
All the rest of the clan mechs MUST store their ammo in the hands/side/center torsos.
To make things a bit clear - that means in the moment you get cored SOMEWHERE between the legs and the head, the next shot is bye-bye torso part.
You got 5 spare tons AND slots on EVERY IS mech to store your ammo in it - if you're LRM boating and using STD engines - use C.A.S.E.. If you're LRM boating and using XL for the extra speed - use that extra speed to stay the frig away from any dramatic moments(isn't that the idea btw?) until you're left with the humble 720(WOW!) LRM ammo.
If you're not boating LRMs and you go for the Balistics, and despite the fact it aint quite wise to use 2+ more of balistic weapon types(in terms of ammo distribution and values, not to mention bullet flight speed) - learn the sequencing of the way ammo is consumed(hint: try typing mwo CASE in google - it was in the top 3 results) and place it more strategical.
The last one goes for mixing SRMs and balistics too.
There. I think I covered all the weapons.

Please, stop requesting nerfs with your main reason being abscence of core knowledge and thought.
Nothing personal - you do seem like a nice guy.

Edited by Voidcrafter, 14 August 2014 - 01:19 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

El Bandito, on 14 August 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

You had left out the less vulnerable XL, 2 slot DHS, omni-pods, 7 slot Endo and FF, very efficient lvl 1 TC, in addition to the free CASE. Personally I'd want all that in exchange for a locked XL engine and internal/armor for my Fatlas and Catapults.

Okay, but you can never change the engine or the armor/IS types, and all of the slots are locked into inconvenient places, so you can't possibly mount an AC/20 in the ballistic side torso of the Atlas and there are only six slots free in each arm.

[FDJustin]

Ehn... With an exception of the ones that are forced to use flamers, there is nothing wrong with the forced loadouts on clan mechs. Hell, all your extra heatsinks are shoved into the engine, so it's not taking up any extra crit slots.
As for the JJ's... Well... All I can say, is it's the kind of mech you get if you want that package.

The summoner doesn't actually suffer much from sub-optimal locked slots. Other than losing the head crit slots, and one CT slot, it puts your JJ's right where they should be.

[Haakon Magnusson]

ExplodedZombie, on 13 August 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

..

You sure you are not trolling? Ammo explosions are SO rare that I'd rather have their propability upped to curb the AC heavy meta a little bit... as to clan vs is balance, sure it is a minor benefit for them, but if you are lucky enough to get an ammo explosion losing that part is pretty costly already. Also considering many clan mechs can't hide that ammo in legs or heads but it tends to cluster in arms/torsos, their free case simply mitigates that.

In short, it's alright.

[aniviron]

Ammo only has a 10% chance to explode anyway; and generally by the time you're losing your legs, most of it is gone. If it's not already gone and you got super unlucky because the ammo did explode, well, it's not like you were going to last a lot longer on one leg anyway.

[FDJustin]

Voidcrafter, on 14 August 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

You got 5 spare tons AND slots on EVERY IS mech to store your ammo in it-

What? Sorry, where do these extra tons come from? Just about all clan ammo is double that of IS weight per weight. Opportunity to place the ammo in whichever slot, yes, extra slots, no. Endo is crit expensive, most weapons take more slots, and if you somehow can fit FF, that's also crit expensive.
Allocation is more diverse, but it's not in any way 'cheaper'.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

FDJustin, on 14 August 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Just about all clan ammo is double that of IS weight per weight. .

That's almost 100% wrong. Clan AMS has twice the ammo per ton- everything else is the same. The UAC and C-AC rounds look bigger, but remember that you have to divide the shells per ton by the shells per shot- at which point they come out to the exact same totals. The clan gets no actual ammo advantage for any weapons.

Just for reference's sake, the Clan AC/2 fires 2 shells, the 5 fires 3 shells, the 10 fires 4 shells, and the 20 fires 5 shells per shot.

[FDJustin]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 14 August 2014 - 01:38 AM, said:

That's almost 100% wrong. Clan AMS has twice the ammo per ton- everything else is the same. The UAC and C-AC rounds look bigger, but remember that you have to divide the shells per ton by the shells per shot- at which point they come out to the exact same totals. The clan gets no actual ammo advantage for any weapons.

Just for reference's sake, the Clan AC/2 fires 2 shells, the 5 fires 3 shells, the 10 fires 4 shells, and the 20 fires 5 shells per shot.

I stand corrected. Then it's just a matter of being more free with where we put it. Not a deal breaker for either side.

[Voidcrafter]

FDJustin, on 14 August 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

What? Sorry, where do these extra tons come from? Just about all clan ammo is double that of IS weight per weight. Opportunity to place the ammo in whichever slot, yes, extra slots, no. Endo is crit expensive, most weapons take more slots, and if you somehow can fit FF, that's also crit expensive.
Allocation is more diverse, but it's not in any way 'cheaper'.

Which clan ammo exactly is double of the IS per weight?
SRMs/LRMs --> pretty much the same.
ACs --> Burst fire - the ones I play with(though I admit - don't remember numbers currently) are pretty much the same.
Yes - you're right - IS have the option to chose whichever slot, though I always though that putting ammo in random locations when you have free slots in the feet and the head is kinda silly.
But clans don't have that "option" - they are forced to carry it in the torso parts and the hands - meaning what I said - cored - pew-pew -> BOOM!.
The first things I get on a new IS mech I bought were always DHS and Endo. Always.
Don't see what your problem is with what I said?

[El Bandito]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 14 August 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

Okay, but you can never change the engine or the armor/IS types, and all of the slots are locked into inconvenient places, so you can't possibly mount an AC/20 in the ballistic side torso of the Atlas and there are only six slots free in each arm.

Omnipods woulda been more than enough make up for it, except Clanners got hardpoint inflation, compared to the IS, in general.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 August 2014 - 01:58 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

FDJustin, on 14 August 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

I stand corrected. Then it's just a matter of being more free with where we put it. Not a deal breaker for either side.

So if you think it's not a big deal WHERE you put your ammo I... really don't know what to say...
Ammo explosion IS a big deal if you're an IS pilot and don't put the main part of it in locations, where you can either protect OR you know would less likely get shot(head --> really low chance to hit, feet --> really high amount of armor. More than RT/LT and gets shot quite rare - in intentional terms).
Ammo explosion will get you killed if you're with an XL engine more than 80% of the times.
Ammo explosions will get you killed even with STD engine in probably more than half of the time.
Depends on what ammo have exploded though - but either way it will cause you a lot of damage.

There are a lot of dangerous stuff that could make this occur out there - LRM/SRMs with targeting comp. LBX-es, Machineguns(I see higher number of those) will do that to you on ordinary basis.
The other weapons will do that from time to time.

You MUST consider ammo explosions as a really dangerous "event" and take all the possible measures to lower the chances of it's occuring as much as you can. You should adjust your playstyle to it to.

Otherwise... that sorts of threads are created

Edited by Voidcrafter, 14 August 2014 - 02:04 AM.

[FDJustin]

I don't think it's a deal breaker, no. As in I don't think it makes playing a clan with ammo unviable or horribly crippled, just inconvenient. I know it matters, and it sucks to be on the receiving end of an ammo explosion.

... Just like I think putting ammo in your feet is really dumb. But that's just light pilot bias.

I also don't think clans having C.A.S.E. in all parts is a deal breaker that makes them completely superior to IS, and I recognize that the carefully hidden away 'best places' for ammo is likely a deliberate choice to balance this benefit, and maybe stonewall you into specializing / making trade offs. The whole 'theme' behind clans seems to be less freedom, bigger impact. In general that's how the mech loadouts work. Bigger impact mechs have less freedom (ECM mechs have 1 module slot, usually weaker engines, hardpoints, etc.)... Big diversity mechs have less impact (AMS equipped lights aren't the ones with 4 slots for MGs, and variants with more types and hardpoints to chose from suffer other drawbacks. Reference Anasai.)