92 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

You've been playing with sir Konivig himself. The difference between losing and winning in that case is having fun. Besides, while being called ELO, it doesn't have much to do with chess or the system used there. Of course that doesn't mean the used ELO system is particularly good.The name is simply carried over because no one has a better one.

To pick up your things, LoL uses a tournament-style ladder system. Until level 30, people are ranked by level alone. After that, the people can participate in the tournament-style matching that will align them in certain brackets where they meet people in the same. It's fairly foolproof, but only works with games of that type.

WoT averages your statistics with a scoring system that will rate you higher to better you do. It's okay, but heavily promotes selfish play, one of the big reasons why WoT has a terrible community.

MWO uses a system where the Matchmaker tries to predict the outcome of the match. If it's right, your rating remaint unchanged. If it's wrong, your ELO will be ajusted either up or down, depending on whether you won or lost. This means that "your ELO only changes if it surprises the matchmaker". If you're always put on the losing team and expected to lose, you can assume to find yourself on the losing team again and again, until it decides to think you on the winning team and then lose. It's horrible for new players.

Anyway, keep playing with Konivig, get on a teamspeak channel and make the best out of the game.

EIT:
Oh god you actually went ahead and made another thread for that. Yeah, awsome, whatever. You've found just the right crowd for that.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 14 August 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 14 August 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

Seeing names like JagerXII, Edmiester, Sean Lang and others in those screenshots, on the opposite team (of those group matches), is also telling. You're going up against people who regularly play in the competitive circuit, and really enjoy that tasty PPC/Gauss/whatever combo. Even if they weren't using that loadout or one of its many variations, they are still objectively good players. Whereas I recognise no names in the Blue team on those shots.

Cynically, I wonder how you got into those games.

Play solo, and as a new account you shouldn't see those names at all.

I actually read through, so I will just quote this instead of type it myself. If you see Edmeister and you are still in trial mechs, the match maker is broken substantially worse than I thought.

[Malleus011]

The game is really unfriendly to new players. Sorry mate. 90% of the people I introduce to it quit before they finish their 25th match.

If you (and your friends) can hack the steep, incredibly discouraging learning curve, you can finally learn enough to not die before you get to fight. It's a real grind, and despite multitudes of advice and suggestions, PGI has done almost nothing to fix that. Once you get to a point where you figure out enough to avoid insta-death, you can slowly start getting better. But it'll take a while.

Joining one of the big, organized teams could help, it would let you and your friends team up with experienced players and learn from them. Playing solo queue is easier, but not fun if you want to play with friends.

Alternately, you guys would be welcome in the Stock Mech matches (in the Community Events section). Stock 'mechs aren't Trials - they're brand-new machines, selection from a list of lower-tech 'mechs (no Clans at all, at least on Mondays). They're cheaper, they require no customization, and you face only other lower-tech machines. You don't get killed NEARLY as fast, and you're in group chat with other players, so you can get advice and lessons from them. If that's interesting, try joining SMM some Monday night. We've asked many times for PGI to make a 'stock mode' that would give new players a less murderous environment to learn in.

[Estrous]

SethAbercromby, on 14 August 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

You've been playing with sir Konivig himself. The difference between losing and winning in that case is having fun. Besides, while being called ELO, it doesn't have much to do with chess or the system used there. Of course that doesn't mean the used ELO system is particularly good.The name is simply carried over because no one has a better one.

To pick up your things, LoL uses a tournament-style ladder system. Until level 30, people are ranked by level alone. After that, the people can participate in the tournament-style matching that will align them in certain brackets where they meet people in the same. It's fairly foolproof, but only works with games of that type.

WoT averages your statistics with a scoring system that will rate you higher to better you do. It's okay, but heavily promotes selfish play, one of the big reasons why WoT has a terrible community.

MWO uses a system where the Matchmaker tries to predict the outcome of the match. If it's right, your rating remaint unchanged. If it's wrong, your ELO will be ajusted either up or down, depending on whether you won or lost. This means that "your ELO only changes if it surprises the matchmaker". If you're always put on the losing team and expected to lose, you can assume to find yourself on the losing team again and again, until it decides to think you on the winning team and then lose. It's horrible for new players.

Anyway, keep playing with Konivig, get on a teamspeak channel and make the best out of the game.

EIT:
Oh god you actually went ahead and made another thread for that. Yeah, awsome, whatever. You've found just the right crowd for that.

Thank you for the information, also did I make a huge mistake posting there? I feel as if that last bit on your post there was kind of a "oooh boy look what you done did bad" kinda thing.

I will be going to sleep now but, perhaps I will get into this game more later.

[SethAbercromby]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Thank you for the information, also did I make a huge mistake posting there? I feel as if that last bit on your post there was kind of a "oooh boy look what you done did bad" kinda thing.

I will be going to sleep now but, perhaps I will get into this game more later.

It's the kind of posts that seems to attract all the people that love to run their mouths about how bad the game and PGI are. You'll see stuff like "i don't care about X any more", "X is so bad, PGI must obviously be an incompentent bunch of losers" and the likes.

Just looking at the Gerneral Discussion, Im seeing threads called "Anansi is Pointless" and the all popular "Aaaaaaand I'm done for the day". I don't even know why I still post there, trying to argue about clan balance and balancing methods.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 14 August 2014 - 08:06 AM.

[Estrous]

SethAbercromby, on 14 August 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's the kind of posts that seems to attract all the people that love to run their mouths about how bad the game and PGI are. You'll see stuff like "i don't care about X any more", "X is so bad, PGI must obviously be an incompentent bunch of losers" and the likes.

Just looking at the Gerneral Discussion, Im seeing threads called "Anansi is Pointless" and the all popular "Aaaaaaand I'm done for the day". I don't even know why I still post there, trying to argue about clan balance and balancing methods.

Well I am not looking to horribly bash on the game. I am just a new person trying to figure out of my observations and baby research are all garbage and I'm actually just... wrong for reasons? So far no one is disagreeing with me, which is what I want but if it's true and there is nothing to disagree on, well I dunno if I will stick around this game for long.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that I've been getting placed up against top-tier players just to play with my friends.

[SethAbercromby]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well I am not looking to horribly bash on the game. I am just a new person trying to figure out of my observations and baby research are all garbage and I'm actually just... wrong for reasons? So far no one is disagreeing with me, which is what I want but if it's true and there is nothing to disagree on, well I dunno if I will stick around this game for long.

You disagree with PGI, therefore you're right. You think clans are OP, therefore you're right. Those are the rules of General Discussion. That is not a place to get objective reasoning.

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that I've been getting placed up against top-tier players just to play with my friends.

The ELO sytem has always been a horrible implementation, but PGI is adamant it serves its purose (crap, I sound like the guys in general discussion).

The ELO matching has always been a bit of a trouble child with this game. There are not enough people for more accurate matching, especially in the group queue, and the Matchmaker draws averages with way too much tolerance, balancing out an average team against a super high ELO player and one super low one. How much of it is forced by the matchmaker to reduce waiting times or simply due to its programming is unknown and PGI doesn't want to tell us details, another problem hitting on large amounts of resistance within the community.

[_NARCoMAN_]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

I am going to post some screenshots here that are disturbing me. This is a trend in my games that happens way more than it should. These are all public matches by the way, I forgot to note this before.

My average game ends up with my team losing all mechs and the enemy losing about 1-2 mechs. Why such devastating rolls? What's even worst is I've had about 9 matches where the enemy team lost no mechs at all, I started screen shoting them after a while.

Is this what I will have to expect? Read below for screenshots and more concerns in detail.





So as you can see, after about six times of this happening I started taking screenshots. How can this happen so much? If I took a screenshot of every time the enemy wins with only losing one mech I would have about 3 more of these. So of the 12 times I've lost 9 of those were perfect wins for the enemy team, and the other 3 were almost perfect.

I would also like to note I played these matches on and off with some other new friends who are just getting into the game, after playing solo and getting rolled so much I started playing with friends and it's happening just as goddamn much!

Just look at my stats page, .57 k/d ratio, 40% win ratio, what gives? I would also like to note I've seen a screen like this for my side once, it was nice to see but made me wonder how we won so amazingly. Is this game's match making really so awful?

I am trying my best to learn but this game is so amazingly difficult, and I am met with a much greater amount of pain than pleasure. Of my 10 friends who have tried this game, all but one has quit due to it being much too difficult and the extreme loss after loss was just too much for them to handle. The only time I live in my matches is when I hide, but by hiding I'm not helping but at this rate I don't think it matters. I die before I even get a chance to fire on an enemy mech.

It seems like the only people who play this game are vets and I never run into new players, from my perspective I've just stepped onto a playground as an 8 year old and all the other kids are like 17 with baseball bats. It's an old dog's show and I've not chance to compete, this is how I see a lot of indie online games die, a group of early beta testers get on the game, get really good, then stay there so it's just a buncha really strong people fighting really strong people and when a new person shows up it's a pub stomp till they leave.

Mech warrior online you're killing me baby! I wanna get real close and comfortable to a studly game like you with depth and interesting game play but the pub stomping, continuous either great or bad teams, mixed with the huge grind is just so much!

Your bottom screenshot shows 00ohdstruct with one kill and the enemy team is all alive.

?

[SethAbercromby]

Asheron Realaidain, on 14 August 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Your bottom screenshot shows 00ohdstruct with one kill and the enemy team is all alive.

?

Might be the bug where a killed 'Mech is not regarded as such by the game and can for some reason still fire its weapons while lying on the ground, shooting at missiles with leftover AMS ammo. It's very rare though. I don't think TKs are counted in the statistic, but maybe they are.

[Malleus011]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well I am not looking to horribly bash on the game. I am just a new person trying to figure out of my observations and baby research are all garbage and I'm actually just... wrong for reasons? So far no one is disagreeing with me, which is what I want but if it's true and there is nothing to disagree on, well I dunno if I will stick around this game for long.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that I've been getting placed up against top-tier players just to play with my friends.

It's been my experience that even the most bitter veterans are still nice to new players, but there's a significant chunk of the forum population that are mad as hell at PGI about one thing or another. If you see guys griping, they're usually not griping at you, they're griping about PGI and some of the ... interesting choices they've made.

Yeah, dropping newbies against elite players I've never understood ... it really hurts their new player retention. And it's no fun. At all. But they don't seem willing or able to fix the issue.

[_NARCoMAN_]

SethAbercromby, on 14 August 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Might be the bug where a killed 'Mech is not regarded as such by the game and can for some reason still fire its weapons while lying on the ground, shooting at missiles with leftover AMS ammo. It's very rare though. I don't think TKs are counted in the statistic, but maybe they are.

I have been playing since closed beta and have never heard of that bug. I have seen jumpjets firing while on the ground dead,but never a fully weaponized corpse of a mech.

[SethAbercromby]

Asheron Realaidain, on 14 August 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

I have been playing since closed beta and have never heard of that bug. I have seen jumpjets firing while on the ground dead,but never a fully weaponized corpse of a mech.

Saw that one pop up in the patch feedback forum as bug report and apparently has occured to multiple players. It might have been a thing in that match.

[Mercules]

The problem with group queues is..... well it's problems actually and they are numerous.

1. Chassis balancing - 3/3/3/3 is really hard to achieve when you have 8 groups queued and they are a weird mismatch of categories. Say one is 1/2/3/1 and another 3/0/0/1. Well the last number fits but the first one makes that a non-viable matchup, a group has more than 1 medium it doesn't fit there either.

2. Elo - It AVERAGES the group Elo so if you have 3 really good guys and one bad that one bad is playing against better players and the 3 really good against worse.(most likely) So now it has to match this averaged Elo and still hit the weight class restrictions.

3. Playerbase - A lot of players just drop solo. Some might duo or trio but other groups are all over the place for numbers. I know the SoR can end up with groups anywhere from 3-12 in their TS server with all kinds of different weight classes being in that group. The pool for "just the right matchup" on groups is still very small so the matchmaker ends up grabing new people and veterans and throwing them all in together just because the 3/3/3/3 happens to work out and I think Elo is thrown out the window for that.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that I've been getting placed up against top-tier players just to play with my friends.

That's not entirely accurate. You may have a higher tier player(s) on the other side, but that will either be balanced out by lower tier players on their side, or higher tier on yours.

Plus the group queue is tougher because there are comms and more teamwork etc.

It all boils down to whether or not you can have fun without winning constantly. If that's what you want, you either need to suck it up and learn to play better, or find another game.

Don't get me wrong, not wanting you to leave, and not telling you to do so. I am saying this is not a simple game, you cannot just pick a gun and charge out on the battlefield like most shooters.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I should have noted that, these are all public matches. I will add this. I also get like 3 more posts so I need to make them count.

Those matches look to me like you were filler for 10 man group battles.....public matches my ass lol. And groups not getting in pugs...PGI lies....the pugs get into the groups is how that works.

And yeah, those rolls are why I just cant even play this game, it got old after like the 10th game. I know I dont do real amazing, but one would think the game would atleast try to balance out the team skill/elo/whatever the hell ratings to make matches a lil more equal.

The matchmaker needs to leave solo players out of the group queue entirely, if your not in a group, it will not, cannot ever put you in a group battle. MM needs to match 10 mans vs 10mans, 8vs8, 4s vs 4s and find groups to fill the slots, not puggies. If, after like 5 minutes its unable to doso, it drops simply like 8v8 or 4v4 lol. Would certainly change up the gameplay feel a bit...4v4 on current maps would be kinda fun. Move around hunting each other.

But yeah, this game has so many stomps its redorkulous.

[LordKnightFandragon]

SethAbercromby, on 14 August 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

MWO uses a system where the Matchmaker tries to predict the outcome of the match. If it's right, your rating remaint unchanged. If it's wrong, your ELO will be ajusted either up or down, depending on whether you won or lost. This means that "your ELO only changes if it surprises the matchmaker". If you're always put on the losing team and expected to lose, you can assume to find yourself on the losing team again and again, until it decides to think you on the winning team and then lose. It's horrible for new players.

Dear god, thats how the ELO system works? Yeah, that is utterly ********......explains why some people are able to win, while just face rolling on the keyboard....then others cant get a win in 100 battles...Only when a player groups with a player who didnt get a rigged ELO rating do they finally start to see some wins....guess thats why my win rate when grouped with certain players in CWDG went up, even if I did almost nothing, while in other games, despite me dealing a good 400-500dmg, we lost....badly....its the player's predesignated ELo rating....yeah, it needs to just go....

Base the MM entirely on mech tonnage or something....screw WL/KD/Avg dmg....mech tonnage vs mech tonnage....meh....or Weight class vs weight class, where it picks a medium for each side, then a heavy, then a assault then a light till its filled the MM...screw all these ratings....they suck

[Alreech]

Estrous, on 14 August 2014 - 04:34 AM, said:

My average game ends up with my team losing all mechs and the enemy losing about 1-2 mechs. Why such devastating rolls?

It seems like the only people who play this game are vets and I never run into new players, from my perspective I've just stepped onto a playground as an 8 year old and all the other kids are like 17 with baseball bats.
It's an old dog's show and I've not chance to compete, this is how I see a lot of indie online games die, a group of early beta testers get on the game, get really good, then stay there so it's just a buncha really strong people fighting really strong people and when a new person shows up it's a pub stomp till they leave.

You are right, and it's all your fault.

If you want to enjoy this game, than you have to join a Players Unit, so what you can drop in a big Group, use Teamspeak and can match your Mech Weapons with the Mechbuilds of the other players in your group.
Teamwork, Communication, Coordination an Tactic are the key elements that make MWO enjoyable, and you won't have those things without joining a Unit.

If you don't want to play in a Player Unit, this is not the right game for you, try Hawken or Titan Fall.

[Nick Makiaveli]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 August 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Dear god, thats how the ELO system works? Yeah, that is utterly ********......explains why some people are able to win, while just face rolling on the keyboard....then others cant get a win in 100 battles...Only when a player groups with a player who didnt get a rigged ELO rating do they finally start to see some wins....guess thats why my win rate when grouped with certain players in CWDG went up, even if I did almost nothing, while in other games, despite me dealing a good 400-500dmg, we lost....badly....its the player's predesignated ELo rating....yeah, it needs to just go....

Base the MM entirely on mech tonnage or something....screw WL/KD/Avg dmg....mech tonnage vs mech tonnage....meh....or Weight class vs weight class, where it picks a medium for each side, then a heavy, then a assault then a light till its filled the MM...screw all these ratings....they suck

I think you misunderstood. Your RATING only changes when you surprise the MM. You could win 100 games in a row and not have your Elo change a point.

Your pre-designated Elo is only for when you come out of your first 25 matches, then it is supposed to rise or fall. The premise is that if you are not as good as your rating, you will let your team down, and you will lose matches you should have won. The reverse is true.

It's not meant for quick movement, it's meant to be slow so that statistical spikes are smoothed over. Yes it's brutal in the beginning, but mostly just for those who have to win to have fun.

[Ertur]

Estrous, you are doing better than I did when I started. For a long while (and I mean 3 months or longer) my KDR was under not just 1 but under .5.

Your aim will impove. Your sense for what is happening will improve. Nothing comes automatically.
I solo pug alot, as well as play in a group, and they are both fun.

[Modo44]

It is Elo -- not an acronym. The matchmaker is not rigging matches. It tries to find similar teams, and only after that is done (time and available players limit the possibilities), it tries to predict who has a better chance to win. When you do as predicted, you get a slight Elo change, when you go against the prediction, your Elo changes more.