22 replies to this topic

[Gattsus]

I was wondering if have you noticed that the Dragonslayer/Timberwolf meta is being less prominent. Although not because the meta itself (ppc-ac-gauss-etc) is not there or its nerfs, but because there is more diversity with clan mechs?

Even in competitive (i.e. the official tournaments) matches is very rare to find meta builds, since more general builds are usually used,

What do you think?




(Whales and Tbr's are still a bit op, but, heck, whatever.)

[Biglead]

Somebody post the grumpy cat meme saying "Good".

[Mcgral18]

Hoverjets had an impact on that.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Yeah, things certainly seem to be changing. In a recent match between the top two teams there was a lot of deviation from the "meta." Lots of different builds and strategies, it was a lot of fun to watch. This may just be a transition period but I'm holding out on the hope that a wider variety of builds will be competitive.

[Xenosphobatic]

Rouken, on 15 August 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Yeah, things certainly seem to be changing. In a recent match between the top two teams there was a lot of deviation from the "meta." Lots of different builds and strategies, it was a lot of fun to watch. This may just be a transition period but I'm holding out on the hope that a wider variety of builds will be competitive.

It's a transition period. LRM's are prevalent, which is usual for the time between meta builds. Eventually, someone will find builds that exploit weapon groups. I expect this will happen shortly after the T-Wolf is available for cbills.

[Gattsus]

I mean the old meta wolf is ppc ultra ac/ gauss cannon it's the first build in spech mechs.

[CheeseThief]

It's amazing really what happens when the nerfs actually touch upon the source of the problems.

[Gattsus]

CheeseThief, on 15 August 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

It's amazing really what happens when the nerfs actually touch upon the source of the problems.

Still the ppc velocity was overnerfed in my opinion. Same with the JJ, they are that worth it, for example in the Summoner.

Not related with the meta but the CLL also got a massive nerf in length duration.

Still, I think that it's deu to the nature of having more diversity than the nerfs themselves, that aren't that relevant.

[JohnnyWayne]

CheeseThief, on 15 August 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

It's amazing really what happens when the nerfs actually touch upon the source of the problems.

Intresting, but the synergy between PPC and ACs wasn't nerfed. Well PPC was broken and clan mechs don't have usual ACs to further abuse this synergy in the old manner. No one plays IS mechs anymore so you won't see the effect of this changes as you did in the past (which would lead to 2PPC+AC10/20). As clan mech, all you can do now is boat CERML and CLPL together with gauss.

If you call that "nerf on the right place" then we should nerf LRMs in the same manner and suddenly - as in the past -noone uses them again.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 16 August 2014 - 05:44 AM.

[mike29tw]

CheeseThief, on 15 August 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

It's amazing really what happens when the nerfs actually touch upon the source of the problems.

PPC was never the problem.

Every meta build has PPC in them because:
A) PPC is the only energy weapon that can inflict PP FLD,
B ) almost every mech has energy hardpoint that can equip PPC,
C) Gauss/AC generate small heat, couple that with true 2.0 DHS inside your engine, makes them pair well with PPC.

If PPC were the problem, tell me, how OP was 4PPC build, or even 3 PPC build before the last PPC nerf?

Edited by mike29tw, 16 August 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[Stonefalcon]

Biglead, on 15 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Somebody post the grumpy cat meme saying "Good".

Your wish is my command.

[Sorbic]

Rouken, on 15 August 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

Yeah, things certainly seem to be changing. In a recent match between the top two teams there was a lot of deviation from the "meta." Lots of different builds and strategies, it was a lot of fun to watch. This may just be a transition period but I'm holding out on the hope that a wider variety of builds will be competitive.

How do you watch matches like that?

[Blacksoul1987]

Sorbic, on 16 August 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

How do you watch matches like that?

I think they can connect to private lobbies as a spectator.

[Lightfoot]

My Orion is better than the Mad Cat, if you are an Orion specialist and understand it's strengths and weaknesses which there are plenty of.

Right now I am trying to reach perfection with my AWS-8Q though. It's a great challenge.

[John1352]

I'd say lasers are currently "the meta". I'm just not seeing that much of anything else. Although LRMs are supposedly OP. Might have a bit to do with the cowering tactics in widespread use.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

mike29tw, on 16 August 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

PPC was never the problem.

Every meta build has PPC in them because:
A) PPC is the only energy weapon that can inflict PP FLD,
B ) almost every mech has energy hardpoint that can equip PPC,
C) Gauss/AC generate small heat, couple that with true 2.0 DHS inside your engine, makes them pair well with PPC.

If PPC were the problem, tell me, how OP was 4PPC build, or even 3 PPC build before the last PPC nerf?

4PPC builds are, if not the reason, a major part of why we have ghost heat.

Sorbic, on 16 August 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

How do you watch matches like that?

You have to have access to the spectator tool, not just everyone can use it. I think these gentlemen have to ask someone at PGI for access to it every time they want to use it.

Edited by Rouken, 16 August 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Lightfoot]

mike29tw, on 16 August 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

PPC was never the problem.

Every meta build has PPC in them because:
A) PPC is the only energy weapon that can inflict PP FLD,
B ) almost every mech has energy hardpoint that can equip PPC,
C) Gauss/AC generate small heat, couple that with true 2.0 DHS inside your engine, makes them pair well with PPC.

If PPC were the problem, tell me, how OP was 4PPC build, or even 3 PPC build before the last PPC nerf?

QFT

The PPC has a slow recharge for a projectile and recharge is stopped/slowed by eventual overheat. Any Autocannon has much higher DPS and never overheats due to all the DHS 2.0's being in the Engine.

So the fix for the ACs+PPC meta that everyone hates is to make the Engine DHS the 1.4's and the externals set to DHS 2.0!! Engine DHS at 1.4 would cause the AC's to overheat too and their weight would block adding PPCs to the AC's. MWO just gives the AC's a free ride by setting the Engine DHS to 2.0. Put the fix where the problem is, which is OP AC's not PPCs which were already nerfed very heavily.

[John1352]

Lightfoot, on 16 August 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Any Autocannon has much higher DPS and never overheats due to all the DHS 2.0's being in the Engine.

An abandoned AC2 cries in the corner.

[mike29tw]

Lightfoot, on 16 August 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

QFT

The PPC has a slow recharge for a projectile and recharge is stopped/slowed by eventual overheat. Any Autocannon has much higher DPS and never overheats due to all the DHS 2.0's being in the Engine.

So the fix for the ACs+PPC meta that everyone hates is to make the Engine DHS the 1.4's and the externals set to DHS 2.0!! Engine DHS at 1.4 would cause the AC's to overheat too and their weight would block adding PPCs to the AC's. MWO just gives the AC's a free ride by setting the Engine DHS to 2.0. Put the fix where the problem is, which is OP AC's not PPCs which were already nerfed very heavily.

What's funny is that when PGI first introduced DHS, all the external DHS were real 2.0 DHS while the engine HS remain SHS. I had no problem with it and I think it makes sense, since there's no way you can cram in same number of DHS that takes 3 times space than SHS into the same engine.

The forum, however, cried foul over this. "All HS should be DHS !!" They said. "That's how TT works !!" So PGI listened, except they turn 2.0 DHS into 1.4 DHS, because of the infamous 3-second Jenner.

The real punchline is that, someone made a graph showing how DHS heat dissipation changed after they put in 1.4 DHS, and IIRC the result was "improved by a small margin".

If you ask me though, I still think the whole heat system need an overhaul. Limited heat capacity and faster dissipation will solve a lot of the problems we have today.

Rouken, on 16 August 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

4PPC builds are, if not the reason, a major part of why we have ghost heat.

Doesn't change the fact that ghost heat is arbitrary and a bad mechanic to curb a minor problem. Alpha strike 4 PPCs should lead to instant shutdown, yes, but not because PGI inject magic heat into my mech whenever I fire something Paul doesn't like. Instead, 40 heat should shut you down because it exceeds anyone's heat capacity naturally.

If 40 PP FLD damage is OP enough to introduce ghost heat, what about 2C-Gauss + 2C-ERPPC? That's 50 PP FLD. Are you gonna ghost heat that as well?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

mike29tw, on 16 August 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Doesn't change the fact that ghost heat is arbitrary and a bad mechanic to curb a minor problem. Alpha strike 4 PPCs should lead to instant shutdown, yes, but not because PGI inject magic heat into my mech whenever I fire something Paul doesn't like. Instead, 40 heat should shut you down because it exceeds anyone's heat capacity naturally.

If 40 PP FLD damage is OP enough to introduce ghost heat, what about 2C-Gauss + 2C-ERPPC? That's 50 PP FLD. Are you gonna ghost heat that as well?

I'm making no argument here. Just stating the facts. Ghost heat was implemented to curb boating of certain weapons. Builds including large numbers of PPCs were part of that. Ghost heat also predates the Dire Wolf by about a year and we just had a PPC nerf to reduce the pin point damage of the build you mention.