69 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Mystere, on 15 August 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

Honestly, I preferred the excitement of the old non-matchmaker we had.

I miss seeing Atlases start with missing arms who still come out with 5 or 6 kills despite walking at 32.4 kph and how terrifying an Atlas K was in closed beta compared to the laughing stock it is now.

---------

Far as ELO goes... I honestly feel that a system which only takes win/loss and uses that to determine skill is not a good system. While many other games use the same Chessmaster 5000 ELO system, they heavily modify it to include other factors such as kdr, accuracy, weapons, etc. For example League of Legends actually gives you an individual ELO per champion, and when you run a new champion you are given a much lower ELO until you settle in.

This ELO matchmaker does not account for ECM, weapons, mech, or any other stat. It exclusively checks win/loss and 'class'. That's it.

Then there's the group queue. So far as I can tell there is no ELO running in the group queue, I can find anything from 12 man meta tryhards (versus random relatively new players and casuals grouped up with friends) to a couple of reasonably balanced teams.

This was probably the best match I had. One thing I might point out is that unlike most matches where the weight classes are about even though the tonnage usually isn't, this one heavily flopped the tonnage and classes creating a very dynamic and entertaining experience.

I'd also love to mention this: That Awesome 8Q had an XL 210 engine, less than 250 points of armor, and 44 standard heatsinks with 3 PPCs chain fired. Non-stop, virtually heat neutral madness. The final stand was 3 (us) versus 6, and was reduced to 2 versus 6 before we nailed one of theirs. We reduced it to 2 when Lordred's Awesome 8Q finally went down. There was so much ECM that my LRMs were absolutely useless the entire match so I had 2 Clan ER LL and 2 ER ML at my disposal. Most of this damage is from the ER ML at 400+ meters because the ER LL was all but useless.

Edited by Koniving, 16 August 2014 - 01:11 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

The problem with elo is also that by skilling dragons you probably did not affect your elo at all... You are 8% of your team, you may perform 50% of normal in the bad mech and only every second game will count vs your elo due to predicted loss together with near matched average elo = random guess most likely....

[Kjudoon]

Mergatroid Skittle, on 15 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Problem: Too many games end up 12 - 0

Solution: Get rid of ELO-based matchmaking

Most people seem to agree with this and I just wanted to voice it on the forums. Peace out.

These threads always show up on tournament/challenge weekends when brawltardery is at it's worst.

[MischiefSC]

I'm seeing less brawls, more camping - which is bad.

Without question and pretty much universally if you're not in a 12man on voip with people you know and positions you understand you're going to win by playing aggressively more than defensively. It's about situational awareness - you need more to play defensively. You need to know who and where to defend. For offense, you push in and wreck face. That's how pugs play best.

[Zuesacoatl]

Elo is honestly the best solution we have. You can not balance the players themselves. The Romps I have seen are because one team tends to stary together and focus fire, the team that loses, loses because they were milling about and not working with the other 11 mechs on the field. It is hard for charts to show when a drop has team play versus solo mindset. Next romp you are in, actually watch the battle, see why the other team one, I bet you will see a more unified front on the winning team than you will on the losing, and no system can account for that when trying to balance a team.

[Kjudoon]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

I'm seeing less brawls, more camping - which is bad.

Without question and pretty much universally if you're not in a 12man on voip with people you know and positions you understand you're going to win by playing aggressively more than defensively. It's about situational awareness - you need more to play defensively. You need to know who and where to defend. For offense, you push in and wreck face. That's how pugs play best.

come up a few elo levels... it's all 4+ECM 10+ AMS, fast moving brawltardy killsnake jerks.

[EgoSlayer]

Mergatroid Skittle, on 15 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Problem: Too many games end up 12 - 0

Solution: Get rid of ELO-based matchmaking

Most people seem to agree with this and I just wanted to voice it on the forums. Peace out.

Most people don't understand Elo and don't realize it has nothing to do with 12-0 games and more to do with limited unit counts and no respawns.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 16 August 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

come up a few elo levels... it's all 4+ECM 10+ AMS, fast moving brawltardy killsnake jerks.

There are no real 'Elo levels'. We have 3 buckets - more or less. That's group queue, I'm talking pug queue. Group queue is always like that.

[Satan n stuff]

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I miss having a 90%+ win/loss and a KDR of 3 or 4 with pretty much any mech I wanted to take, because dropping in a 4man even without VOIP was like driving a steamroller through a herd of ducklings.

It's alright that you miss that. It was just bad for new and old player alike otherwise though.

I miss being able to solo entire teams, but I do not want to go back to that, it was too easy to stomp teams consisting entirely of a bunch of newbs and a handful of half decent players and it took me long enough to get rid of the bad habits that I developed because of that. I'd much rather have a proper challenge and actually improve my game, even if that means I get outmatched every so often.

Back when we could drop in 8 man groups against anything else it wasn't unheard of for a group to win every single match they played, and for most individual players to survive every match. I'll admit that was a lot of fun, but it was also way too easy, and it wasn't nearly as much fun for those we played against.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 16 August 2014 - 02:19 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Satan n stuff, on 16 August 2014 - 02:18 AM, said:

I miss being able to solo entire teams, but I do not want to go back to that, it was too easy to stomp teams consisting entirely of a bunch of newbs and a handful of half decent players and it took me long enough to get rid of the bad habits that I developed because of that. I'd much rather have a proper challenge and actually improve my game, even if that means I get outmatched every so often.

Back when we could drop in 8 man groups against anything else it wasn't unheard of for a group to win every single match they played, and for most individual players to survive every match. I'll admit that was a lot of fun, but it was also way too easy, and it wasn't nearly as much fun for those we played against.

The only difference was that Groups magnified that advantage. Without Elo it turns into seal clubbing. It's the same reason that sports teams are broken into College, Pro and Junior leagues. If you did the same thing with sports that we do in MW:O with Elo, building teams randomly from sports players the best players would still end up with a higher Elo and playing against better players. You'd end up, eventually, with the same thing you get by splitting Pro, College and Junior leagues, split up by their relative 'Elo'.

Why?

Because better players are better at winning overall and it shows through in the averages.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I miss having a 90%+ win/loss and a KDR of 3 or 4 with pretty much any mech I wanted to take, because dropping in a 4man even without VOIP was like driving a steamroller through a herd of ducklings.

It's alright that you miss that. It was just bad for new and old player alike otherwise though.

You coattail-hanging baby seal killer! ( )

At least I was (and still am) playing solo.

Edited by Mystere, 16 August 2014 - 04:33 AM.

[Damocles]

replace ELO with public lobbies and robust mission parameter choices

[Screech]

I really would hate it if the took out Elo from MM now that they separated the queues. Would lead to a dramatic increase of uninspiring face-rolls. I really don't care enough about my stats that this would be appealing.

[Kjudoon]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

There are no real 'Elo levels'. We have 3 buckets - more or less. That's group queue, I'm talking pug queue. Group queue is always like that.

I am talking about Derptown. The Rambos have gone insane with bringing ECM and AMS like never before. Its seriously proving how broken those two systems are.

The group queue drops I played in... blissfully empty of ECM by comparison.

MischiefSC, on 15 August 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I miss having a 90%+ win/loss and a KDR of 3 or 4 with pretty much any mech I wanted to take, because dropping in a 4man even without VOIP was like driving a steamroller through a herd of ducklings.

It's alright that you miss that. It was just bad for new and old player alike otherwise though.

Just looked at my W/L stats. Several common mechs are well below 50%. Only a few are above that, Only one mech with over 25 drops has a W/L over 1.5 That's disgusting. KDRs are nice though.

Edited by Kjudoon, 16 August 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mergatroid Skittle, on 15 August 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Problem: Too many games end up 12 - 0

Solution: Get rid of ELO-based matchmaking

Most people seem to agree with this and I just wanted to voice it on the forums. Peace out.

Yup, the game is certainly easier when you can fight against new players all the time... too bad that you now get pitted against tougher opponents as you get better at this game, huh? Yeah, I wouldn't be getting rolled if i wasn't facing tougher opponents, either. Do you see me asking for random matchmaking? No, I think better players should be pitted against better players.

A random matchmaking scheme, like the OP wants, would face a significant risk of putting teams of newbies against teams of seasoned players because there are no provisions for divy'ing up players based on skill level. An Elo-Based matchmaking scheme at least includes provisions that block all-seasoned players from being on one team, and all-newbies on the other. This means an Elo-Based scheme would result in fewer stomps than a random player generator.

[Alistair Winter]

MM is supposed to give you a 50% chance of winning by balancing ELO scores on both teams.

**** that.

Just let veterans play with veterans and new players play with new players. If a new player wants to play with the veteran players, he can join the group queue.

I've played thousands of matches. I don't want to play with people who don't know how minimap coordinates work.

[Kjudoon]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

I'm seeing less brawls, more camping - which is bad.

Without question and pretty much universally if you're not in a 12man on voip with people you know and positions you understand you're going to win by playing aggressively more than defensively. It's about situational awareness - you need more to play defensively. You need to know who and where to defend. For offense, you push in and wreck face. That's how pugs play best.

I keep seeing this word "Camping" used when a team won't charge stupidly into open ground and die like an infantry charge through No Man's Land into German Machine Guns. I'm failing to see how 'camping' is a bad thing if it usually results in the 'winning' I see when people don't shout 'cowards' a their teammates and charge to their foolish demise.

So that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. It's almost Orwellian

Charging is smart
Camping is cowardice
Dying is winning

Okay, Orwell with a Japanese twist. The logic of the Banzai charge.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 16 August 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

You coattail-hanging baby seal killer! ( )

At least I was (and still am) playing solo.

I got tired of being clubbed, so I grouped up and rolled a D-DC. We often ran with 4 of them. Every match was exactly the same; call out in chat you're a 4man with a plan, we're going to point X, we'll take the lead and push, you guys come along and farm kills. Kill everyone, starting right to left, biggest to smallest. Get to point, group up, push, roll.

Sometimes you'd meet a better 4man and lose. Otherwise it was just a race to see who got the most kills.

Kjudoon, on 16 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I keep seeing this word "Camping" used when a team won't charge stupidly into open ground and die like an infantry charge through No Man's Land into German Machine Guns. I'm failing to see how 'camping' is a bad thing if it usually results in the 'winning' I see when people don't shout 'cowards' a their teammates and charge to their foolish demise.

So that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. It's almost Orwellian

Charging is smart
Camping is cowardice
Dying is winning

Okay, Orwell with a Japanese twist. The logic of the Banzai charge.

I am talking about Derptown. The Rambos have gone insane with bringing ECM and AMS like never before. Its seriously proving how broken those two systems are.

The group queue drops I played in... blissfully empty of ECM by comparison.


Just looked at my W/L stats. Several common mechs are well below 50%. Only a few are above that, Only one mech with over 25 drops has a W/L over 1.5 That's disgusting. KDRs are nice though.

I'm not trying to compare e-peens here. I've got 35 mechbays, most have 25 or more drops. Of the ones that do my lowest is my Timber Wolf at 1.03 win/loss. Of my assaults they range from 1.37 in my Banshee with over 300 drops to my D-DC with a 1.52 at over 300 drops.

It's not about charging stupidly; it's about staying on the offensive.

Without VOIP you have no way to manage a defense. No way to effectively tell who does and does not need help or support. No way to realize where you got overrun until it's too late. When pugging you are most effective with 'Go to B4, out around the rock, in from the city. Don't go up top' or 'Push in to the center, don't stop and bottleneck. Circle around counter-clockwise. If you're not a light, don't go into the lava to chase a kill'. 'Take H10 at a sprint - don't let them get all the way up the hill. Burn air/arty early'.

Simple, understandable unified aggressive plans are going to drive the win.

Offense controls and decides the engagement in pug games. Defense doesn't. Hanging back and sniping/LURMing is a luck game, save on Caustic. In which case you have to figure out which side of that equation you're on and if it's the wrong one you sprint all out clockwise (or counter-clockwise depending on what side of the map they're on) and you get into the ridges on the south side for LRM cover and you brawl trench-warfare style, hopefully overrunning them. Otherwise you die. Oh, and hope they don't have NARC, in which case you're just going to lose pretty much regardless.

Again - pushing is what wins. You play in the group queue you'll see 12mans with coordinated pushes driving 12-0 stomps in less than 5 minutes on the clock total game time. In pugs you'll see good pug teams push and roll; that's often when people say 'there are teams in the pug queue!' it's because that group of pugs grouped up and rolled hard and smashed the 'defensive' pug team before they had time to even finish setting up.

Play aggressive in pugs. That is what drives wins. Support your teammates; shoot at who is shooting them whenever you can. Escort Charlie to D3 in River City so they make it alive. When circling you shepherd your slowest teammates. Wins > kills.

[Mystere]

Kjudoon, on 16 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I keep seeing this word "Camping" used when a team won't charge stupidly into open ground and die like an infantry charge through No Man's Land into German Machine Guns. I'm failing to see how 'camping' is a bad thing if it usually results in the 'winning' I see when people don't shout 'cowards' a their teammates and charge to their foolish demise.

So that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. It's almost Orwellian

Charging is smart
Camping is cowardice
Dying is winning

Well, there is a difference between "taking a defensive position" and "camping". The former, when done properly, actually works extremely well. The latter just gets you killed by attrition. Most PUG players, though, cannot tell the difference.

Kjudoon, on 16 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Okay, Orwell with a Japanese twist. The logic of the Banzai charge.

Well, Banzai charges seem to work for me, more often than not anyway.

[Miken]

We need BattleValue based balance. Not Elo or silly 4x3...