112 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Aresye, on 17 August 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

And that is why it's broken up between IS and Clan tech.

And also that is why PGI is experimenting 10 v 12 instead of 12 v 12. Clan tech is just overall superior, and it is high time to wake up to the fact.

Sephlock, on 17 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

It could be that Clan mechs (even those piloted by people who have no chance of showing up amongst the top players) are hoovering up all of the sweet sweet armor points by bukkakeing damage all over their opponents, leaving less armor points for the skilled IS pilots to hoover up with their more easily focused damage. Clan weapons are longer ranged AND they tend to spread damage, so... ?

Given the fact that range is one of the most important factor in any serious matches, it just further proves Clan superiority. As for the fact that Clan UACs have burst fire, one must also remember that it has the ability to double tap. Clan ACs are not outright inferior than IS ACs.

Then there is the single ST death proof XL. I wish my Stalkers had that. I coulda raked in so much more damage with it, even just by using ERLLs.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 August 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[Sephlock]

El Bandito, on 17 August 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

And also that is why PGI is experimenting 10 v 12 instead of 12 v 12. Clan tech is just overall superior, and it is high time to wake up to the fact.

Quote

Given the fact that range is one of the most important part of any serious matches, it just further proves Clan superiority. As for the fact that Clan UACs have burst fire, one must also remember that it has the ability to double tap. Clan ACs are not outright inferior than IS ACs.

But IS UACs also have the ability to double tap! And jamming is a factor! FLD is king!

Steptarting! Torso twisting!

[El Bandito]

Sephlock, on 17 August 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

But IS UACs also have the ability to double tap! And jamming is a factor! FLD is king! Steptarting! Torso twisting!

Jamming is an acceptable risk, depending on the situation. FLD is indeed king, except IS XL mechs are defensibly handicapped when compared to Clan XL and once a ST is exposed, you are a dead man walking--basically making long range trades unfavorable to the IS. IS mechs needs to close in to have any decent chance at winning 10 v 12, much less 12 v12.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 August 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[PappySmurf]

There is not much to say MR.OP MWO had degraded badly since Closed Beta.

Just think of it this way if you own a Clan TimberWolf you driving this look below


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but if your driving a InnerSphere mech your driving this look below

Edited by PappySmurf, 17 August 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Vassago Rain, on 16 August 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

That clan mechs are much stronger than IS mechs.

Duh.

Nope. There are just more Clan Heavy pilots like there are more IS Light Mech pilots... or are you implying that Inner Sphere Light mechs be nerfed too?

You can't read too much into these numbers, they are all pretty close really and you are mostly seeing the Jagermech vs the Mad Cat and there is a 10 ton difference.

[Mycrus]

Vassago Rain, on 16 August 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

That clan mechs are much stronger than IS mechs.

Duh.

Be fair only 90%

[Vassago Rain]

Lightfoot, on 17 August 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Nope. There are just more Clan Heavy pilots like there are more IS Light Mech pilots... or are you implying that Inner Sphere Light mechs be nerfed too?

You can't read too much into these numbers, they are all pretty close really and you are mostly seeing the Jagermech vs the Mad Cat and there is a 10 ton difference.

[B0oN]

And that coming from a man with unarguably the funniest way to see BT-balancing in an FPS environment ... it does make you think (or cringe at the same time), doesn´t it ?

Oh well, popcorn is ready and the cluster assembled for this excellent show to be happening ... oh, the anticipation .

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 18 August 2014 - 12:00 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Rad Hanzo, on 18 August 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

And that coming from a man with unarguably the funniest way to see BT-balancing in an FPS environment ... it does make you think (or cringe at the same time), doesn´t it ?

Oh well, popcorn is ready and the cluster assembled for this excellent show to be happening ... oh, the anticipation .

I like that balance is so messed up, Russ has managed to take 11 days to write his balance post. That's probably the best sign ever that the game's currently broken.

[Ace Selin]

Jeb, on 16 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

clan mechs are way easier to get big dmg scores in... but I find my kills stay about the same as in my IS mechs...
I see tons of clan mechs with 800+ dmg and no freaking kills... and we lose the match because nothing was killed...

Please don't' base mechs being good or bad on how much dmg they do... it doesn't matter how much dmg they do if they can't get that kill shot in...


And the devs have said they don't want TT clan versions... they are trying to balance them without making them more of just the same old thing... The devs have already made some tweaks, and I hope they keep doing small changes until they are balanced, instead of taking the NERF HAMMER to them and making them garbage... Believe it or not, some of the clan mechs could use some buffs

Give it some freaking time people, they are not even all released for cbills yet.

Of course damage matters, if you pump 60 points of damage into an IS heavy and dont kill it, its ripe to die in the next attack.

The fact that Clans can do 70 points damage and IS comparable mechs to 40 points damage is often ignored as IS is pinpoint supposedly and hits 40 points to CT, what people also ignore is that the Clan mech packing 70 points of damge may not put all 70 points into the CT but if he doesnt hes likely to put 40 points into CT and another 30 into the torso /arms etc. So the damage is always much worse, when packing more firepower.

[Asmosis]

Its probably been said already, but besides the fact clan weapons are far superior to IS weaponry theres also the fact the best clan heavy is 10 tons heavier than the best IS heavy, and almost twice as fast if the IS one takes a STD engine so that it doesn't get instagibbed by the clan.

You all remember ac2's got heavily nerfed to reduce the constant impulse shake right? because it was considering so strong to the point of OP trolling?. yep lets make that standard on all clan mechs.

[RussianWolf]

the data is flawed.

Assumption. All players are equal - then the data would be valid.

Since we know that all players are not equal we don't know how skilled the top 5 in IS are compared to the skill of the top 5 in Clan. If the top 5 in clan are all higher skilled players who have been dying for their clan mechs and play nothing else for the most part now, and the top 5 in IS are average players who didn't spend money on the game, then the data is flawed and you get skewed results.

We don't know.

Only way to reliably tell is to have the same players compete in static matches, where they swap sides and exact builds. Then you will get close to reliable data.

[Vassago Rain]

RussianWolf, on 18 August 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

the data is flawed.

Assumption. All players are equal - then the data would be valid.

Since we know that all players are not equal we don't know how skilled the top 5 in IS are compared to the skill of the top 5 in Clan. If the top 5 in clan are all higher skilled players who have been dying for their clan mechs and play nothing else for the most part now, and the top 5 in IS are average players who didn't spend money on the game, then the data is flawed and you get skewed results.

We don't know.

Only way to reliably tell is to have the same players compete in static matches, where they swap sides and exact builds. Then you will get close to reliable data.

We do know, because Russ posted all the data. He said elo was very much in range, and the mechs weren't getting mismatched.

Clans are OP P2W. Accept it.

[RussianWolf]

Vassago Rain, on 18 August 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

We do know, because Russ posted all the data. He said elo was very much in range, and the mechs weren't getting mismatched.

Clans are OP P2W. Accept it.

That he is using ELO to determine parity of players speaks volumes to me. Bad Data in = Bad Data out.

[Vassago Rain]

RussianWolf, on 18 August 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

That he is using ELO to determine parity of players speaks volumes to me. Bad Data in = Bad Data out.

Yeah, bro. All their numbers are WRONG.

Only the bads play IS robots. It's totally obvious. How else could the glorious master race have 90% win ratio?

[RussianWolf]

Vassago Rain, on 18 August 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yeah, bro. All their numbers are WRONG.

Only the bads play IS robots. It's totally obvious. How else could the glorious master race have 90% win ratio?

Well, I didn't opt in but maybe I should have. Played nothing but IS all weekend (and will be for a while yet as I'm grinding some elites) and had no issue what-so-ever in killing Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves using my Inferior mechs.

Did I say the numbers are wrong? No. I said its flawed data so you can't trust it to be reliable. To get reliable data you have to limit or remove as many variables as possible so that you can see the correlation of the one variable you want to check.

Here's how. Take 24 players and put them on 2 teams. Similarly skilled helps, but isn't required. Those two teams are now fixed for the test. Now take 24 mechs (12 clan and 12 IS ) of similar builds (so all should be running DHS, and have similar weapon load out as much as possible. At the end of each match, you swap rolls but stay in the matched mech. And do this as many times as you can comfortably do it before any variable change. So in the end you get to see how the IS v Clan does and you have effectively eliminated or minimized the variable of player and mech type/load out.

Bad input data is where you simple take 12v12, clanvIS and through out the fact that the teams are 1)changing with each match, 2)same players are playing the same side, 3)same players are playing different builds and different classes,

Hard to get reliable data in the end that way.

Their numbers may in fact be correct. But you can't determine that from the way that they are gathering their data.

Edited by RussianWolf, 18 August 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Mystere]

RussianWolf, on 18 August 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Well, I didn't opt in but maybe I should have. Played nothing but IS all weekend (and will be for a while yet as I'm grinding some elites) and had no issue what-so-ever in killing Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves using my Inferior mechs.

Did I say the numbers are wrong? No. I said its flawed data so you can't trust it to be reliable. To get reliable data you have to limit or remove as many variables as possible so that you can see the correlation of the one variable you want to check.

Here's how. Take 24 players and put them on 2 teams. Similarly skilled helps, but isn't required. Those two teams are now fixed for the test. Now take 24 mechs (12 clan and 12 IS ) of similar builds (so all should be running DHS, and have similar weapon load out as much as possible. At the end of each match, you swap rolls but stay in the matched mech. And do this as many times as you can comfortably do it before any variable change. So in the end you get to see how the IS v Clan does and you have effectively eliminated or minimized the variable of player and mech type/load out.

Bad input data is where you simple take 12v12, clanvIS and through out the fact that the teams are 1)changing with each match, 2)same players are playing the same side, 3)same players are playing different builds and different classes,

Hard to get reliable data in the end that way.

Their numbers may in fact be correct. But you can't determine that from the way that they are gathering their data.

Real science is hard. That is why politicians and other folk just settle for pseudoscience.

[ice trey]

Carrie Harder, on 16 August 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

I was comparing the IS lights to IS heavies. :\

Just my two cents, but I imagine that there's a lot of players that are simultaneously doing the Marik mechbay challenge, so they're limiting themselves to certain chassis.

The FWL list has some good mechs, but some of the less optimized ones are there as well. For example, the heavies cue is completely backlogged most of the time. However, this time around, the excess of Timberwolves is being countered by the lack of players using Quickdraws and Thunderbolts. The long time meta favorites of the Jagermech, Catapult, and Cataphract are not on the Marik list. Instead, there has been a pretty big Assault Mech glut, as lots of players are fielding their Stalkers - another Meta favorite. Also, with the recent release of the Kit Fox for C-bills and the new Hero Spider, we're seeing a surprisingly large number of lights out there, too.

This is going to skew the IS numbers a little bit, inevitably.

On the plus side, I've been able to dust off my Dragons for the first time in ages. Waiting 5 minutes or more between each drop with a heavy or assault mech is hugely frustrating, especially as I'm a single-player gamer who expects games to be loaded in 20 seconds or less from the time I hit the "Start mission" button.

Edited by ice trey, 18 August 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Roland]

RussianWolf, on 18 August 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Well, I didn't opt in but maybe I should have. Played nothing but IS all weekend (and will be for a while yet as I'm grinding some elites) and had no issue what-so-ever in killing Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves using my Inferior mechs.

Yeah, you should have opted in, and backed up your talk by showing everyone how secretly awesome the IS heavies are.

But, alas, you didn't. And I think everyone knows why.

[Moomtazz]

It doesn't look so bad today. Clan Med/Heavy/Assaults scoring about 10% better than IS.

Edited by Moomtazz, 18 August 2014 - 09:16 AM.