47 replies to this topic

[Herr Vorragend]

The CERLL is still broken. We need another hotfix that removes the 2 secs beamtime of the CERLL.

[Carl Avery]

As an Inner Sphere pilot who's been vocally unhappy about how the average Clan 'mech on the field is considerably more powerful than the average IS 'mech on the field, I have to agree that -- although Clan tech still does need "nerfing" to be brought into line with the average IS 'mechs -- this wasn't the way to do it. Increase the heat, lower the damage, lower the range, whatever -- beam time wasn't the way to do it.

A reasonable reduction in damage or range or heat efficiency wouldn't have to spell the end of the weapon's usefulness, and the beam duration was already on the high side of reasonable -- it was the combination of the great range, good damage, and low heat that was making it over-powered, not the beam duration.

Someone pointed out recently that the tabletop cERLL actually had worse stats than the one in MWO. Wasn't the idea to make Clan 'tech less dominating? But, again, while I feel like Clan 'tech needs to be brought down into line, nerfing any weapon to the point where there's no point in taking it to a competitive fight isn't the answer.

[Desintegrator]

Carl - you are absolutely right !

But when there are 10 different methodes to apply a nerv, PGI always chooses the worst one !
Why: because nobody plays this game in reality ! (...and it was so in the past, and it will be so in the future..)

They just look at their statistics server and they look at the damage numbers !
And what do they see after the nerv ??
Yes really -> the damage numbers of the PPC and the Clan ER LL went done !

They said: -> Great, we really did it ! We achieved our goal !

Nobody cares, that the weapon is useless now and the nerf has been done in the worst way.
If they reduced the range of the C-ERLL about 150m and reduced the damage down to 10 points, everything would be fine. The weapon would still be useable and the damage would be decreased significantly.

I could be sooo easy !
But nobody cares about this...

Edited by Desintegrator, 11 August 2014 - 08:33 AM.

[ShinVector]

But then again..

Checking smurfy...

IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL...

Even with 2s duration...
DPS.. is negibility higher at 0.01% (Hope you guys understand what this means.)
Damage potential is 25% better.
Heat Per Damage is 18% better.
Weights 1 Ton less.
Stock range is 32% better. (Can be further increased with TCs)

Kinda wondering what IS weapon are you guys comparing this weapon to.

PGI I suggest we do some swapping... Please give these guy IS ERLL and we will take their Clan ERLL should keep them quiet...

*Edit: Error on my part on DPS for CLAN ERLL.

Edited by ShinVector, 11 August 2014 - 08:03 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

All of those stats you list are important but pale in comparison to damage being done in the quickest time possible.

Fights in this game are won and lost primarily at 600m and below. Even if we were to discount that simple premise, the fact remains that in 1s, an ERLL does more damage than a CERLL in 1s. And against pinpoint AC's (the AC5/PPC meta has not left the game regardless of recent nerfs), no Clanner can afford to stare at an IS opponent for 2s.

ML - 1s burn: 5 damage
LL - 1s burn: 9 damage
ERLL - 1s burn: 9 damage

CERML - 1s burn: 5.38 damage
CERLL - 1s burn: 5.625 damage

Now, I'm not saying that the cERLL should not have been considered for an adjustment, but trying to fight against FLD AC's with burst AC's and a 1.5 burn time was challenging enough. Now it's downright ridiculous. There are a multitude of ways PGI could have tweaked the cERLL without this ridiculous burn time.

All I know is there is largely zero reason to take cERLL at this point. They are a disadvantaged weapon entirely. I've dropped all in lieu of LPL or ML. A 2s burn time is not an indicator of skill, it is a handicap. At best it is an indicator of luck, because if you've gotten shots off for the full duration more than once or twice a game, it's because the enemy is discounting or ignoring you for some reason.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Exchange the AC 20. Clan AC20 to IS....IS AC20 to the Clans.....then nobody will play IS anymore. Frapos?

[Carl Avery]

Well, the 2x PPC + 2x AC5/UAC5 Victors & Cataphracts still have something that the Clans don't have: a jump-capable 30-pt. PPFLD that runs cooler and has higher DPS than the Clans' only real option for similar PPFLD alphas. However, what about those of us Inner Sphere pilots who have decided that everyone running around with PPC + AC5 isn't Mechwarrior, isn't diverse, isn't tactical ... just plain isn't fun?

The Victors & Cataphracts ( & maybe even the Shadowhawks & Highlanders) still can go toe to toe with the best of the Clan, perhaps, but what about the rest of us? There are a lot of Inner Sphere 'mechs which just aren't able to take on the most commonly-seen Clan 'mechs without having some sort of advantage in some other area (superior numbers, superior skill) -- and that, by definition, is unbalanced.

And it shows in the public games. How many Catapults do you see playing in mid-to-high-ELO matches? Thunderbolts? Quickdraws? Even Jagers? I mean, these are 'mechs that were already screwed before the Clans hit, compared to the 'mechs used on the pro level, but at least -- back then -- you could almost toss a coin: is my Catapult going to end up in a mismatch against a bunch of Victors & Cataphracts running The Pro Build™, or am I going to end up in a real match against a bunch of other Catapults, Thunderbolts, Stalkers, and the like? About half the time, running this sort of second-rate battlemech meant you were gonna be outclassed, but the other half, you could have a good match, because the enemy might be similarly equipped.

Now, since the Clans, it's different: it's virtually guaranteed that most of your enemies are going to have a better 'mech than yours, if you run second-tier 'mechs. If you aren't facing a Victor or a 'Pract, then you're probably facing a Timberwolf, a Direwolf, or some other insanely powerful 'mech, against which (assuming reasonably similar pilot skill) second and third-tier 'mechs -- 'mechs like Catapults, Atlases, and triple-PPC Awesomes, classic 'mechs which some of us still want to run -- don't stand much of a chance. This is also one of the reasons that light 'mechs (and even mediums) are almost nonexistent now, by the way. It isn't only the IS underdogs that are no longer reasonably viable in the majority of games; it's now even entire weight classes.

But, once more: the cERLL beam duration wasn't the right way to fix this, and I'll bet my neurohelmet that it didn't fix it at all. Lights are still at ~10%, last time I checked, with mediums almost as low. And I'm literally surprised when I encounter a Jagermech on the enemy team, to the point that I exclaim over voice, "Oh, look! A Jager!" That's how rare "average" 'mechs have become. And the cERLL beam duration being made ridiculously bad doesn't fix that, does it?

Edited by Carl Avery, 11 August 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[ShinVector]

Carl Avery, on 11 August 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

But, once more: the cERLL beam duration wasn't the right way to fix this, and I'll bet my neurohelmet that it didn't fix it at all. Lights are still at ~10%, last time I checked, with mediums almost as low. And I'm literally surprised when I encounter a Jagermech on the enemy team, to the point that I exclaim over voice, "Oh, look! A Jager!" That's how rare "average" 'mechs have become. And the cERLL beam duration being made ridiculously bad doesn't fix that, does it?

Actually from what I saw.. CRELL were being abuse by Timbies...

[Kinski Orlawisch]

3 UAK5 Jager dealing 900+dmg with 4 kills....I still see them ingame.

[Herr Vorragend]

As you guys stated. They shoudl reduce the range a little. Maybe the DMG a little. But the beamtime must be reduced.
After the Gauss the CERLL is the second weaponsystem that is complete garbage.


PGI tried to nerf the metabuilds (double-gauss Jagers, double-gauss Phracts) but really hurted single gauss builds mostly. Dragons, Highlanders, Blackjacks and many more. The gauss as a single-AC option is not existant. That made a lot mechs and builds obsolete.


Now PGI removed CERLL from light or medium mechs, that could have needed the Weapon. At the moment I got 14 CERLL from different mechs in inventory... ready for being sold.

EDIT:

next thread: Module System. Since the implementation of different moduleslot-definitions (weapon module, mech module and so on) I haven´t used a single module anymore. It´s a now broken system and very uninteresting. I don´t use arty or airstrikes, but want to use my mech-modules. Could there be a way of trading 2 weaponmodule-slots into one mechmodule-slot?

I really can´t understand, why PGI changed that. It was hard enough to earn the GXP for unlocking the modules. The modules aren´t cheap.

There is absolutely no reason to buy a weapon-enhancement module. Plus the prices are much to high. Just one big LOL.

PGI should listen to the community. This would safe a lot of time (for the devs) and nerves (for us customers)

Edited by Herr Vorragend, 12 August 2014 - 03:51 AM.

[amisu]

CERLL is garbage. Now they need to make IS version garbage so we can have "balance".

[Thrudvangar]

Simple, short question: why is the gauss garbage? Did i miss something???

It feels the same like always.

Edited by Enzlaved, 12 August 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Daneiel]

I am completely agree with Lukoi . PGI just don't want to see it - nerfing the ERLL at that way is a major blow at the clan light and medium mechs , but once again while they focused their eyes on the heavy and the assaults , PGI strike against the light and mediums .I know that isn't the place to say that but i will put it here - non of the weapons in the game by it self is a problem , the problem is the boating mechanic allowed by that kind of mechlab without R&R , charges for twitching your mech and the time locks for making the necessary changes there , also really bad heat scale system and rate of fire of the weapons .

Edited by Daneiel, 12 August 2014 - 09:40 AM.

[Herr Vorragend]

Enzlaved, on 12 August 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Simple, short question: why is the gauss garbage? Did i miss something???

It feels the same like always.

It´s the fire-mechanic that makes it worse to use for a fast mech.

Now that PPCs and Gauss are desynced in projectile-speed they could finally remove the /&"%§$ charging-mechanic

Edited by Herr Vorragend, 12 August 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Bigbacon]

1.5 was long enough and 2 is just an ETERNITY in this game....

I won't even consider using them anymore on any clan mech.

Up the heat, up the cool down or something but as other said, duration was NOT the change that was needed.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Funny that you can't even go to the ERPPC from using CERLL, because its even worse unless you're brawling with it.

PPC speeds are laughable now, really sad to see what they did to em.

Only choice for long range is spamming lrms, Gauss or sticking LPL on, either case they're not favorable to the old PPC mechanic.

Sure seems that LRM wins over these choices.

Edited by Mister D, 12 August 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Thrudvangar]

Hmmm i haven't got any problems with the gauss and/or ppc and i use them both mounted in mechs who are walking more than 100mph, just use the ppc in an other way than before.

[Lily from animove]

you could even give them the same stats, and they would by tonnage and slots be better since most clanners have more hardpoints to make use of mor eof them anyways. prbably give them 100m more range than its IS counetrpart and everythign would eb a lot more balanced.

[Jabilo]

The ghost heat and base heat increase was enough to balance the weapon. This should have been implemented and monitored before a beam duration increase was implemented. If it was still needed after a couple of weeks of data gathering then so be it. Little and often.

In fact, the ghost heat multiplier increase was too much - firing more than 2 lasers is suicide. The multiplier went from 3 to 12 and it should have gone from 3 to 6. Again, implement this and gather data for a couple of weeks.

Heat scale should give pilots tactical choices. Chain fire for efficiency or alpha for a big penalty. But if the penalty is so large it becomes functionally impossible then you have removed tactical choice which is bad for long term game play, depth and enjoyment.

I am sorry, but the fact we see such large pendulum swings and the fact we have a change implemented by Paul one day and withdrawn by Russ the next is not a good sign that balance is under control.

I respectfully request that PGI should release a command chair with their thoughts on the current state of every weapon and system in the game. They should discuss the game data they gather and highlight some pertinent data sets.

For example, lets take pulse lasers (Clan and IS). They are generally felt to be underpowered for the tonnage increase over their standard counterparts.

Paul could talk about the kind of data he has (how many are equipped, by what mechs, how they perform in terms of killing shots and average damage, how much damage is applied to single components, how often are they equipped at different ELOs etc).

He should then talk about why he feels this data supports their current stats and why they are not being tweaked.

Transparency, honesty and bring the community in to the discussion. Balance is happening behind closed doors with just the announcements being made (often to community meltdown).

Edited by Jabilo, 13 August 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Koniving]

Carl Avery, on 11 August 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Someone pointed out recently that the tabletop cERLL actually had worse stats than the one in MWO. Wasn't the idea to make Clan 'tech less dominating? But, again, while I feel like Clan 'tech needs to be brought down into line, nerfing any weapon to the point where there's no point in taking it to a competitive fight isn't the answer.

Exactly.
TT's IS ER LL: 8 damage, 12 heat.
TT's Clan ER LL: 10 damage, 12 heat.

Difference: 2 damage. Identical heat.

MWO's IS ER LL: 9 damage, 8 heat.
MWO's Clan ER LL: 11.25 damage, 9 heat (currently, was 8 heat).

Difference: 2.25 damage. Was identical heat, now slightly more.

Why is the damage so high for either weapon?