54 replies to this topic

[Coralld]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 August 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

Clan XLs need to have a movement and speed penalty when a side torso is destroyed. Part of the engine is missing, it should affect the performance of the mech.

As for IS mechs ditching XL all together, Thats fine in an Assault (preferable) and can work in a Heavy. It becomes a problem with Mediums (although do-able depending on chassis), and a standard engine is a death trap in Lights.

Depends on the application.

In any case, the clan XL is too durable with no side affects to destroyed parts. It needs performance degradation upon the destruction of a side torso.

Agreed, Clan XLs need to have a speed and heat penalty when they lose a chunk of their engine, it only makes sense.

CXL defenders: "B...but... IS gets custimization and Clans don't really and because in lore they were super awesome pwn sauce."

Me: True, but also per lore and TT rules, when a Clan XL mech lost its side torso it got a speed and heat penalty. Funny how some people like to ignore this fact.

CXL defenders: "But the Clan XL mech loses half its weapons..."

Me: And a IS XL mech is straight up dead.

We are not saying they should straight up die like an IS XL, what we are asking for is heat and speed penalties. In lore and per TT rules, CL XL suffer a 10% heat penalty per lost engine crit, and sense losing a torso on a Clan XL mech is 2 cit lose, that would equate to 20% heat penalty. Speed penalty should be around 25 to 30%, as well as suffering a 20% penalty to torso twist speed and max torso twist range.

[poopenshire]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 August 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Just a friendly word of advice (take it or leave it).

If you want to try and voice an opinion and have people listen and consider it, don't blatantly insult them and their intelligence. You may be frustrated, but viciously insulting the community makes you seem no better than the people you are arguing about. Now, no one can take your ideas seriously (no matter how valid they may be).

1. I could care less what people think, all these internet tough guys and what not. When you whine all day everyday, I don't want your respect. In fact I don't need it. Petulant children being a great example. Self entitled whiners being another.
2. I am not frustrated, just love pointing out the whine. I play well and have fun. Don't like my comments, use the God given right to not read it. Freedom is not an illusion, use yours or lose it.
3. I don't care how valid or in valid something is, its your choice to ignore things or not. Do so at your own peril. See how far you get in life with a bad boss or an executive who talks down to you, if you can take it then leave.
4. My Sarcasm is obviously not bleeding through..... and to think I paid $5,000 for that online Sarcasm class.... I have to see PGI about a refund.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Coralld, on 19 August 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Agreed, Clan XLs need to have a speed and heat penalty when they lose a chunk of their engine, it only makes sense.

CXL defenders: "B...but... IS gets custimization and Clans don't really and because in lore they were super awesome pwn sauce."

Me: True, but also per lore and TT rules, when a Clan XL mech lost its side torso it got a speed and heat penalty. Funny how some people like to ignore this fact.

CXL defenders: "But the Clan XL mech loses half its weapons..."

Me: And a IS XL mech is straight up dead.

We are not saying they should straight up die like an IS XL, what we are asking for is heat and speed penalties. In lore and per TT rules, CL XL suffer a 10% heat penalty per lost engine crit, and sense losing a torso on a Clan XL mech is 2 cit lose, that would equate to 20% heat penalty. Speed penalty should be around 25 to 30%, as well as suffering a 20% penalty to torso twist speed and max torso twist range.

Yea, basically. A lack of engine customization doesn't justify a more durable setup like the clans currently enjoy.

Heat penalties won't matter as much due to a loss of dome weapons, but a hit to speed and torso twist seems right. It doesn't have to be as severe as being legged, but it should be at least noticeable.

[Lefty Lucy]

poopenshire, on 19 August 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

No the stupidity of player base blows my mind that 25 years plus of what the clans are, were, and going to be still has not set in yet.

The dev's stupidity, well I get that already. No one needs to prove that to me. Just look at the game and its issues.

The Clans are not just "more powerful robots for blowing up weaker robots."

The Clans are a highly-militaristic society with a lot of rituals and traditions that stem from their legacy of living hard-scrabble lives on barely-habitable planets.

They're extremely darwinian. If you want something in Clan society, you have to prove you have the strength to take it. Clan leaders are not prized for their ability to command, but for their ability as a warrior.

FASA made a mistake 24 years ago when they made Clan tech strictly better. They still could have had all of the other, frankly more interesting, aspects of what makes the Clans who they are.

I'd much rather have a game that makes the Clans and IS "different but equal" technology-wise, but then gives them reasons to actually play like Clanners.

[BoomDog]

Wrenchfarm, on 19 August 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

Give up XL and you're at even more of a firepower disadvantage. Can't win a brawl when you're packing a quarter of the guns/heatsinks as your opponent.

You can either take an XL and have enough firepower to maybe, possibly, if the stars and moons align, pick apart a Clan mech at a distance if you play super careful and are lucky enough to not be OHKOed in the ST. Or you can pack a STD and toss pebbles at Clan mechs and live slightly longer to watch them run right over you.

Balance is flat out broken and no amount of playing with IS build philosophy is going to magically make it better.

I chose to move at a slower speed, rather than reduce my damage. It sucks regardless since a TW can pack all my firepower and still move at 90kph.

Since going standard, I'd say in 25% of my matches I'm running around with a torso missing. I change my tactics when that happens. Moving behind my allies and sniping.

I should've clarified though, some mechs have to use XLs. Lights and some mediums.

Heavies and Assaults should switch to standard. Keep in mind, there are 50 point alphas running around out there. If memory serves, that strips all the armor off of side torsos on any heavy mech. Leaving you vulnerable to any damage if your using XL.

Edited by BoomDog, 19 August 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[Mystere]

Zolaz, on 19 August 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

I understand that you are confused. Welcome to MWO, where the Devs crusading neckbeards want IS and Clam Clan mechs to be different but equal expunged from anything related to Battletech. I just blew your mind, didnt didn't I?

Fixed that for you.

[CygnusX7]

El Bandito, on 19 August 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Actually, in this weekend the skill ceiling was noticeably higher than before. I have played with/against a lot of leaderboard players, ECM was everywhere, Radar Derp was everywhere, and people torso twisted a lot. I had to use my own TAG far more than usual to get reliable hit, yet my ALRM20 hit % went down anyway. Too bad IS XL mechs get swatted down by LRM20s easily even when twisting as much as they could.

Better player than me then.
Tag requires line of sight which means your enemy exposed themselves to your LRM's.

[Coralld]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 August 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yea, basically. A lack of engine customization doesn't justify a more durable setup like the clans currently enjoy.

Heat penalties won't matter as much due to a loss of dome weapons, but a hit to speed and torso twist seems right. It doesn't have to be as severe as being legged, but it should be at least noticeable.

I see where you are coming from the heat aspect, but I also like to think that suffering a 20%heat penalty to heat dissipation as well as have your heat be stuck at 20%, 25% if your moving, would be rather noticeable.

I would also like to point out that I do believe some mechs, and by that I mean the Summoner and Adder, should get a querk that greatly reduces the penalty though.

Edited by Coralld, 19 August 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[Mystere]

poopenshire, on 19 August 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

I think the 40 or so books already written are enough. I cannot help it if the general MWO population cannot read (most are available in 6+ languages too).

I would rather write book about the butt whine in the forums of how people have to be fair and equal on all things. Its more fun and so great to see butt whine message. Oh the big bad LRM hurt me, or, the nasty PPC took off my armor. Hurry someone Nerf it.

The butt whine is so bad here might as well just remove all weapons from all mechs and put bumper cushions on the mechs so they take no damage and we can race around the maps counter-clockwise and the first team to cry like babies wins.

Speaking of racing, you will soon^tm be able use your space ships to race in Star Citizen. Whoopee doo!

[poopenshire]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 August 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Clans are not just "more powerful robots for blowing up weaker robots."

The Clans are a highly-militaristic society with a lot of rituals and traditions that stem from their legacy of living hard-scrabble lives on barely-habitable planets.

They're extremely darwinian. If you want something in Clan society, you have to prove you have the strength to take it. Clan leaders are not prized for their ability to command, but for their ability as a warrior.

FASA made a mistake 24 years ago when they made Clan tech strictly better. They still could have had all of the other, frankly more interesting, aspects of what makes the Clans who they are.

I'd much rather have a game that makes the Clans and IS "different but equal" technology-wise, but then gives them reasons to actually play like Clanners.

I love the fact the Clans are over powered, those of us in IS mechs have to think and fight better. I ran this whole weekend in nothing but my Kintaros. I had a great time. A mech is only as good as its pilot, as you pointed out in a way. But trying to deny that the were meant to be and are stronger than the IS mechs is just crazy. They are, accept it. FASA made that decision long ago and upset many people, but the damage was done and never undone. We cannot change the past, just accept it and move on. I want to fight a superior force. My game play has changed greatly since the Clans came out. I have had to adjust and think smarter to win. Yes I also own Clan mechs, have to know what they are capable of if you plan to kill them. Plus they are just plain fun to run around in.

[Mystere]

Coralld, on 19 August 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

I see where you are coming from the heat aspect, but I also like to think that suffering a 20%heat penalty to heat dissipation as well as have your heat be stuck at 20%, 25% if your moving, would be rather noticeable.

I would also like to point out that I do believe some mechs, and by that I mean the Summoner and Adder, should get a querk that greatly reduces the penalty though.

Heat penalties should only occur for mechs that have fixed heatsinks on the destroyed torsos.

I do not have access to MWO right now so I can't tell whether or not that is even the case. As such, is there any other source we can use for this?

[Blakkstar]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 August 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

FASA made a mistake 24 years ago when they made Clan tech strictly better. They still could have had all of the other, frankly more interesting, aspects of what makes the Clans who they are.

I'd much rather have a game that makes the Clans and IS "different but equal" technology-wise, but then gives them reasons to actually play like Clanners.

I don't blame FASA for not being able to foresee PGI's complete inability to design or produce a game.

3050-era Clan tech is simply better than 3025-3050-era IS tech. The IS catches up considerably between 3055-3067 in the storyline though. By then the IS gets omnimechs, light engines, improved gyros, C3 computers, all sorts of goodies. The Clans only add a couple new weapons like ATMs and heavy lasers.

Besides, Clan zellbrigen was a play balance factor in TT rules. In the wildly imbalanced 3050 invasion era, Clanners are only supposed to declare single combat, not make physical attacks, and shun support units like tanks and artillery. There are also a lot less of them numerically. There was absolutely nothing wrong with FASA's decisions regarding the Clan invasion.

The problem is PGI trying to translate the most imbalanced era in Battletech to MWO while not really having any clue how to do it. Ignoring their source material isn't helping.

For example, clan XL engines get a +10 heat penalty in TT rules when missing a torso. That's as much heat as firing a PPC every turn. If that rule was implemented, Clan mechs that lose a torso would still be alive, but essentially crippled. Especially with energy-heavy configurations.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Jacob Side, on 19 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Clans need a penalty for losing a side torso. Be it a heat, torso twist speed, or overall speed penalty, they need to take some hit for losing it

They do. They take reload speed hits, heatsink hits....I notice when my Warhawk got it's side torso shot out, the reload speeds on my weapons were measured in Light years....Heat is fair bit worse as well. Im sure that has a little to do with whcih torso is shot out, but still.

That is the bonus for being Clan, better XLs.

[Roland]

LordKnightFandragon, on 19 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

They do. They take reload speed hits, heatsink hits....I notice when my Warhawk got it's side torso shot out, the reload speeds on my weapons were measured in Light years....Heat is fair bit worse as well. Im sure that has a little to do with whcih torso is shot out, but still.

That is the bonus for being Clan, better XLs.

No man, this isn't true.

[nehebkau]

I think it would be a great idea to have a decrease in speed when you loose a side torso in a clan mech. All things considered, its much more fair than just dying when a dual gauss crits off your side.

[Octantis]

Yeah XLs are a major liability. With PPC splash damaging even more so.

Speed is still king though and IS lights (run properly) are having a field day. With the Radar Derp Module and a kitted out Jenner LRMs aren't even a concern. The only time I ever worry about missiles is when I'm being chased by an inner sphere light and he is holding locks. Slower PPCs and long burn time ERLLs is making lights viable IMO.

For whatever reason I'm having success with my XL Black Jack. Beyond that I'm not taking out XLs on big mechs anymore except Jagers or LRM boats.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

This thread is such sweet sweet vindication.

[Dawnstealer]

A better way to play it would be to have a Torso Destruction on an XL mech halve that mech's speed. I think that's how TT worked, right? It wasn't an insta-kill, if I remember right.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Dawnstealer, on 19 August 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

A better way to play it would be to have a Torso Destruction on an XL mech halve that mech's speed. I think that's how TT worked, right? It wasn't an insta-kill, if I remember right.

That's a pretty good idea, except what if they lose a torso and leg? Go go gadget pillbox?

[nehebkau]

Dawnstealer, on 19 August 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

A better way to play it would be to have a Torso Destruction on an XL mech halve that mech's speed. I think that's how TT worked, right? It wasn't an insta-kill, if I remember right.

A little extreme. Since there are 3 components where engines are housed so each section would cost a third -- meaning if you lost both your sides you would loose sixty six percent one side, thirty three percent.