128 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Texas Merc, on 20 August 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

Size doesn't matter so much as the fact that it can negate this from having JJs plus MWOs horrid netcode.

I will reserve judgement till I have the cbill ones elited out first.

Remember the cries of the shad being DOA?

fake edit: pgi does like to f up the sizes on these mechs

Eh, trust me, this is no Shad. Size is not what kills it, aside from size of CT. It's just the total package, low firepower/heat endurance, low speed, and size, are bad, and it doesn't get a nice high mount ac20 option to salve those wounds like the BJ does.

El Bandito, on 20 August 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

Yet still better than the Vindicator.

And? You say resist using one pile of crap, then you offer up the next steaming pile. At least give good options, like..oh, wait for the Stormcrow?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 August 2014 - 05:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 20 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Ya'know... I'm not entirely sure I'm able to follow the grousing over marginal mech designs.

Absolutely... For high-level competitive players who make a living of squeezing max-meta out of these mechs, I understand and appreciate your myopic viewpoint. But for the larger majority of us... It seems trite.

Begrudging a Honda Civic because it's not a Porsche is a futile endeavor... It's not supposed to be. Yet the Civic is one of the most well sold vehicles in the US right now. Point is, There's a market for these marginal mechs...

I dunno... The battlescape to me would be a boring deluge of high-meta mechs without these margical mech offerings and I think the pervasive belaboring of "Well, it not as good a "X" mech and is definitely not meta material" to be closed minded.

You ask me, this eternal want for only apex mechs to me is boring and limits the scope of diversity...

Whilst I like your overall analogy, the thing is, there are things the civic does that the Porsche does not. Like be cheap and get great gas mileage. It has a "ROLE" besides just cost of entry.

These mechs need their roles. ATM, all we have is TDM. And so all are judged by how well they kill, while avoiding getting killed in return. That limits things, but even in that, we can have quirks, and hitbox and agility differences to separate units, and keep them all viable, if not optimal, and allow them all to compete to some degree.

Look to the Griffin and Shadowhawk. Similar size, same speed, armor, etc. Shadowhawk has better (slightly) hitboxes and hardpoints. Griffin has FAR better agility and JJs. Not quite enough to allow the Griffin to equal the SHD in a straight toe to toe fight, but enough to give it it's own niche and be useful and effective at it.

So, the VND does not have to be as good as the SHD. But the fact that it's slower, lighter armed and armored, worse hitboxes, worse jump and agility makes it a direct downgrade, and not even a close one, in all ways, to the Griffin. Without artificial weight limitations, there is never a reason to take it instead of a Griffin, and TBH, if it's not worth the 10 tons savings on a drop deck, you are still handicapping your team using it over ANY available Medium option. It's like Bringing a Locust in place of a Spider. Just make no sense to do.

To me, that is a problem. There were a lot of things they could have done with the mechanics to avoid this (Armor caps, hard point sizes, etc).....but those ships sailed long ago.

[Ngamok]

Texas Merc, on 20 August 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Unless you have tonnage restrictions on your drops like any good mechwarriors do.

Don't compare it to a 55 tonner but rather its brethren.

On the other hand if you line up the 55 tonners, the Wolverine is shorter than them all.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ngamok, on 20 August 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

On the other hand if you line up the 55 tonners, the Wolverine is shorter than them all.

and thicker

[Koniving]

Sarlic, on 20 August 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

The buccaneer looks shite on my Atlas. Perhaps that one is lower.

It's on Lordred's list as not 2k.

Every Banshee texture is 2k. Every. Single. One.
All the old mechs, 1k, with certain exceptions on some patterns and it's not always the premium patterns.
The Founder mechs used to be 2k, now they are 1k. This is why people HATED the repaintable skins. It went down in quality.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

It's on Lordred's list as not 2k.

Every Banshee texture is 2k. Every. Single. One.
All the old mechs, 1k, with certain exceptions on some patterns and it's not always the premium patterns.
The Founder mechs used to be 2k, now they are 1k. This is why people HATED the repaintable skins. It went down in quality.

well that and the new pattern mostly sucked

[Koniving]

Jin Ma, on 20 August 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

well, at least theres the possibility of good looking mechs if they were to ever decide to give us that option.. but its always about costs.

Yep, it means us downloading from their download server instead of how the patcher usually works -- peer to peer (ever wondered why the repair tool is so necessary or the download for patches so unpredictable, and quality of multiple patch downloads is always broken to the point of needing to be repaired? That's why. If you track the IPs of the patcher, it never goes to MWO's location or site. But it'll go all over the US, all over Russia, all over Europe and Korea and so on, unless you're one of the very first people to download the patch then it comes straight from PGI like a fresh download does).

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

well that and the new pattern mostly sucked

Which one?

[Koniving]

Ngamok, on 20 August 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

On the other hand if you line up the 55 tonners, the Wolverine is shorter than them all.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

and thicker

Depends, thicker limbs or wider body. Btw I'd do this with the Vindicator but I have to own one first. Warning: Animated. Warning: Large file size.

Spoiler

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

Yep, it means us downloading from their download server instead of how the patcher usually works -- peer to peer (ever wondered why the repair tool is so necessary or the download for patches so unpredictable, and quality of multiple patch downloads is always broken to the point of needing to be repaired? That's why. If you track the IPs of the patcher, it never goes to MWO's location or site. But it'll go all over the US, all over Russia, all over Europe and Korea and so on, unless you're one of the very first people to download the patch then it comes straight from PGI like a fresh download does).


Which one?

Only the HBK didnt walk away looking like poop in new founders. Bit the Cat and Jenner paint are crimes to humanity

[Redshift2k5]

Lexx, on 19 August 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

After reading the other responses in this thread, and thinking more about my experiences in the new hero mech earlier, I sent in a support ticket asking PGI to please remove it from my mechlab and refund the MC I spent on it. I don't want them give me my money back, just to give me the MC back so I can spend it on something else. Does anyone know if they ever do that for their players?

I'm not at all happy with how fragile this thing is. I can't even go 1v1 with a Raven or Cicada, and I should be able to. Don't bother saying I just need to learn to play, or I need to level the mech more. I've played thousands of matches and I have maxed out over 50 mechs. I know when one is a dud.

At the very least I hope they do a hotfix and resize the mech's hitboxes so it doesn't end up getting blasted to pieces by even the smallest amount of firepower. If they won't do that, then perhaps raise the engine cap to at least 275 or better yet 300+. With more speed it might be able to live a tad longer.

Generally speaking you get ONE MC easy-mode refund (and no C-bill or GXP or XP refunds)

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

Look to the Griffin and Shadowhawk. Similar size, same speed, armor, etc. Shadowhawk has better (slightly) hitboxes and hardpoints. Griffin has FAR better agility and JJs. Not quite enough to allow the Griffin to equal the SHD in a straight toe to toe fight, but enough to give it it's own niche and be useful and effective at it.

I don't think the agility difference is as large as you seem to think. While the Griffin certainly has a larger torso twist angle (130 degrees vs the Shadowhawk's 90), and can mount more jumpjets (7 vs 3 - SHD-K can mount 5), there are no actual differences in other agility aspects (Turn Speed, Twist Speed). Additionally, I'm not sure that there's a huge difference in agility afforded by having an additional 4 Jump Jets (an extra 2 tons, or 3.6% of the mech's weight) that would make the investment worthwhile.

Essentially the only advantage the Griffin has is the ability to shoot things (with it's arms) while running away. Which makes its role... tactical retreater?

[Koniving]

SirLankyIII, on 20 August 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

I never realised just out of whack the mediums really are (and that's all I really pilot these days). The jump in size from 35 to 40 is insane, there's no way 5 extra tonnes should make that big of a difference when there's barely any height or surface area difference between the lights (with the exception of the kitfox and adder which have much more surface area/much wide profiles).

To mention it, the following oversized mechs are NOT supposed to have pelvises and as such do not have torso twist...but were given such. As such they cannot be properly sized no matter what.

Locust.
Kit Fox.
Jenner.
Adder.
Cicada.
Nova.
Catapult.

That's of the current mechs which are oversized for what they are.

Dragon (listed not because of lack of torso twist, but it's right arm is supposed to just be the lower arm and no bicep)

Fun fact: The original TRO for Dragons states No Lower Right Arm Actuator. Has a left hand.

Yet: Remake of the TRO gives it a lower arm actuator, but removes the left hand as in NO HAND. Point is 49 slots are available for Dragons in the TROs either way. In MWO? 48.

The others, like the Centurion, have no excuses now that the missile splash problem is gone.

This Centurion on your right (their left) was rescaled after lots of careful measurements of the original concept art.

To note: I do not know for certain, but the Battletech spider doesn't look capable of torso twisting.

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 20 August 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

I don't think the agility difference is as large as you seem to think. While the Griffin certainly has a larger torso twist angle (130 degrees vs the Shadowhawk's 90), and can mount more jumpjets (7 vs 3 - SHD-K can mount 5), there are no actual differences in other agility aspects (Turn Speed, Twist Speed). Additionally, I'm not sure that there's a huge difference in agility afforded by having an additional 4 Jump Jets (an extra 2 tons, or 3.6% of the mech's weight) that would make the investment worthwhile.

Essentially the only advantage the Griffin has is the ability to shoot things (with it's arms) while running away. Which makes its role... tactical retreater?

and a lot harder to flank, and a huge Field of fire advantage to the LRMS. And yeah, not as great as pre nerf, but 7jj smokes 3 for terrain traversing, poptarting, etc.

Of course, uber high should ballistic trumps a lot of crap, too. But between the twist and JJs, I can do some serios shooting gymnastics in my Griffin.

Regardless, the point was the GRF is still inferior, but is still useful, hence why you still see a fair number fielded, while comparatively few Wolverines, Trebbies, etc.

[3rdworld]

DaZur, on 20 August 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Ya'know... I'm not entirely sure I'm able to follow the grousing over marginal mech designs.

Absolutely... For high-level competitive players who make a living of squeezing max-meta out of these mechs, I understand and appreciate your myopic viewpoint. But for the larger majority of us... It seems trite.

Begrudging a Honda Civic because it's not a Porsche is a futile endeavor... It's not supposed to be. Yet the Civic is one of the most well sold vehicles in the US right now. Point is, There's a market for these marginal mechs...

I dunno... The battlescape to me would be a boring deluge of high-meta mechs without these margical mech offerings and I think the pervasive belaboring of "Well, it not as good a "X" mech and is definitely not meta material" to be closed minded.

You ask me, this eternal want for only apex mechs to me is boring and limits the scope of diversity...

Tell that to a new player that thinks "this mech looks cool", then blows all their cadet bonus on a bad chassis.

Mechs need to be constructed under the assumption that it needs to be equal to other chassis, otherwise you are only hurting diversity. People that know the game, avoid bad chassis. So your diversity is really just going to be limited to the masochistic or the ignorant. New players being most likely to be ignorant of hitboxes, hardpoints, size etc, is going to make an incredibly painful new user experience even more so.


For diversity, mechs need to be good. Shooting for every variant to be good is probably overboard, but each chassis needs to have a good mech among its lineup. Making a 45 ton mech too large with a kintaro-esque CT, and not nearly enough hardpoints, does not accomplish that.

Edited by 3rdworld, 20 August 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Only the HBK didnt walk away looking like poop in new founders. Bit the Cat and Jenner paint are crimes to humanity

I agree. The HBK Founders I believe is 2k but not actually sure at the moment. I know I love my Hunchbacks look.


I know the Grid Iron is 2k.


I know the Apple Jack is 2k.


I know the Buc is 1k.

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2014 - 06:23 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

kuangmk11, on 19 August 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

new mech profile gauge:


full size 17000x1500 pixel version in here

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/3e2gtgw.jpg

Excellent work!

Though, it does serve to show how out-of-scale all of the Light 'Mechs are (especially when comparing the JNR to the CDA)...

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Regardless, the point was the GRF is still inferior, but is still useful, hence why you still see a fair number fielded, while comparatively few Wolverines, Trebbies, etc.

It saddens me to see so few of my beloved Wolverines on the field. You can build a variant of the old CN9-A SRM brawler on the 6R that wrecks face (Tanky+ Jumpjets+ ASRM6 + Zombie ML). It's pretty nasty.

That said, mediums need some love. I was expecting the Vindicator to be more similar to the Hunchback in terms of size: a shorty, stocky mech with a large cannon arm.

[Logan Hawke]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

It's on Lordred's list as not 2k.

Every Banshee texture is 2k. Every. Single. One.
All the old mechs, 1k, with certain exceptions on some patterns and it's not always the premium patterns.
The Founder mechs used to be 2k, now they are 1k. This is why people HATED the repaintable skins. It went down in quality.

Yeah, my founders fatlass maeks me crai evertim.

(By the way, keep banging that armor mechanic change drum. It'd be infinite types of fantastic if they actually implemented it!)

[Onmyoudo]

I still think the atlas needs to be a bit bigger to allow them a greater range to work with. What really gets me though is no matter how much we complain about certain mechs being too big and no matter how much those mechs are never, ever used in game, they still keep making these guys so tall. It's ridiculous.

[NextGame]

PGI in medium mech size problem shocker.