24 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

I see this constantly in game... People complaining no one locks R.. (half the time it is because they are all under ECM) Followed by, the team deserves to loose because no one ever targets anything. (some how the ones complaining never have either)

they expect someone else to do it, as to them it is a waste of a ton.. No clue how it is a waste if you can target a mechs damaged area or know a mech is missing back armor to sneak around and take um out in one volley. When even a 10 ton load out, it is 10%, but bigger loads, you are talking 3-5%. When just simple targeting info, could let you kill a mech in one shot who needs more ammo, if you are using yours 10x more efficiently?.

When i see a commando have 600 damage in a match.. it really makes me wonder if a commando can do that with so little, How is it someone with 25-40 tons to play with can't find a single ton to add such a great piece of equipment.

At times i feel like i am the only one that even bothers to put this stuff on a mech, when more often than not it is 3+ mechs on the other team under ECM.

I don't play high ELO, Perhaps i am mid? I dunno really, but all i do know in the matches i play, Why wouldn't people wan't it? I even stick it tag on mechs more often than not that run hot that have an extra Energy point, that imo adding another laser or an extra ton of ammo, just slows down my DPS a bit. Not to mention any mech that runs hot a well aimed shot to a vulnerable area is always better than wasting energy and heat.

So what gives? Anyone wan't to explain this rational to me?

[Koniving]

BAP only supports yourself, but could cancel out ECM if you're brawling.

TAG supports other people and doesn't really do much for yourself.

Which would you like to do?

[Dawnstealer]

They do two different things. Kon summed it up well. TAG also works at range - if you're a scout that likes spotting, or if you're an LRM boat, you should probably take a TAG. BAP is useful, but largely situational.

[Voivode]

It depends on what I'm doing, but I have mechs with all of those, and mechs with NARC. However, I tend to run those mechs more with people in a group, because if I'm spending loadout tonnage to assist teammates, I at least want to know I have one or more teammates I can be on comms with and tell them, "I narced Alpha target" so they look for it and lurm accordingly.

Perhaps what you want is team play.

[xeromynd]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

BAP only supports yourself, but could cancel out ECM if you're brawling.

TAG supports other people and doesn't really do much for yourself.

Which would you like to do?

But if you're an LRM boat, TAG undoubtedly supports yourself, no?
Or are you just talking about those who slap TAGs on their non-LRM mechs.

Personally, I find it a bit too much to think about if I slap a TAG on my mechs without LRM. The times when I'd be using it are when I'm in direct line of sight (thus, most likely taking fire), and it's just too much for me to think about. [Call me simple, but managing more than 3 weapon groups just isnt for me, clenching all my mouse buttons like a claw isn't exactly comfortable] Plus, holding down any weapon group (TAG), while rapid-chainfiring another is impossible.

------------------------
But back to the OP's thoughts. I do agree. All too often I also see complaints about the teammates of LRM boats "not holding locks."

Instead of 'incompetence' this is actually largely due to:
-Presence of ECM
-Locks being lost quickly because of Radar Dep. module
-LRM boats not understanding that it ISNT a good idea to fire off a LRM40 salvo after your target has taken cover, that lock isn't going to hold, son. Save yourself frustration and ammo, and just wait.
-The nature of pop-and-shoot-then-hide PUG playstyle.

In the PUG queue, it's pretty much always a hide-n-shoot fest, with people popping out here and there, teammate locks aren't really reliable here, simply because of the uncoordinated PUG play style. The faster LRM boats adapt to this, the better. [Only kind of team effort that helps in PUG queues is teammates dropping UAVs or NARCing enemies]


So go GET some locks, bring your own TAG and find them. I find I usually get better results if I play my LRM30 Cplt like my Jagermech, or other direct fire mechs. Maintain your LOS, be a supporting mech, and use your secondary weapons, and you'll dish out the damage you're looking for.

Edited by xeromynd, 20 August 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Asmosis]

people want to sit safely behind a hill, 500m away from their own team. The reality is this isn't practical.

BAP I have installed on almost all of my mechs for the sensor boosts. Tag I install on LRM builds, I *might* install it on other mech if I have a spare hardpoint, but generally not.

The only real purpose tag/narc has for me is cbill bonuses. If you have tag going the whole match (and aren't one of the hiding lrm builds) you probably gain an extra 10k cbills, 20k if you use narc.

[Not Bob]

I think BAP is always worth it, as it reduces lock on time for missile boats, and can cancel an ECM if nearby. If I got a spare 2.5Tons in any of my mechs, I'll gladly load BAP in. I think that getting that info is much more important that a few heatsinks or points of armor.

Then again, it all comes down to playstyle too. If you're primarily LRMing with Line of Sight, then I'd recommend taking a Tag over BAP (Would recommend both) but if you're streak boating, take BAP. It'll cancel out that pesky Spider or Kitfox, so you can drop SSRMS in their face

[Koniving]

xeromynd, on 20 August 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

But if you're an LRM boat, TAG undoubtedly supports yourself, no?
Or are you just talking about those who slap TAGs on their non-LRM mechs.

Even on LRM mechs I find that tag isn't actually very useful for self-tagging.
It leads you into this situation...and this situation sucks.


As you can see, TAG wasn't...all that useful if you're planning to use it as an anti-ECM.

As a spotter mech, though, using a TAG tends to keep you from doing stupid things... like rushing in and getting killed.

Alternatively I'll put TAGs on my slow moving heavy hitters.
Whatever I TAG will draw a lot of attention from nearby LRM boats, meanwhile I just keep hitting them.
Example 1
Example 2
It also works to say "I'm focusing this guy," which gets non-LRM users to attack it too.
"What's that, a crosshair? Shoot it!" *Everyone shoots it.*

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[Vlad Striker]

TAG is a real good option for LRM and the only possibility to hit ECM covered. I mean PUG. BAP is not necessary for LRM boat but can be installed (1000m sensor range if you don't have module). Take Artemis as well.

[Kjudoon]

Well BAP is worthless for LRM mechs, streaks... it's essential IF it works and doesn't nerf out as often is the case. It doesn't stop ECM except inside minimum range, and it won't stop Low Signal regardless. So I quit carrying it till PGI decides to be fair about making anti ECM tools that actually work.

Tag works about 70% of the time on targets with ECM, and 85% when it's just sheltered by an ECM mech. Multiple ECM mechs render it useless regardless of range. It also doesn't work at all on ECM targets inside 200m or so.

I've talked with Devs about this, they say "Working as intended" and there are no plans to fix these problems. Ergo, they want broken ECM.

Edited by Kjudoon, 20 August 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

BAP + TAG is very useful for LRM mechs, (if for instance you run a Warhawk with 50 LRM tubes and 4 cERML). I've killed a variety of targets inside 180 meters that I think BAP helped with.

Acquisition with TAG really is a little too slow for self-supporting usage unless you are behind someone or they aren't paying attention, but every bit helps.

On the other hand, I've got 85 tons to play with, so the tonnage isn't critical in this application.

[Void Angel]

TAG isn't terribly useful in hill-humping duels, but I still find it too useful to ignore. The trick is that you have to know when to use it and when it will draw too much attention. Of course, I also prefer to use LRMs in line of sight, so maybe I'm just weird.

[Chagatay]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

BAP only supports yourself, but could cancel out ECM if you're brawling.

TAG supports other people and doesn't really do much for yourself.

Which would you like to do?

TAG is great if you are a medium like a griffin. Nothing brings in that wonderful c-bill shower more. LRMs are everywhere so much spotting and tagging c-bills to be had.

[RedEagle86]

I run a warhawk with LRM 70, with Tag. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4048ff710bffdea

I don't count on others to do what I want done. I do it myself. Tag is also useful for being able to see if the lasers will clear obstacles.

Edited by RedEagle86, 20 August 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Thorqemada]

If BAP or TAG then BAP bcs you dont lose it with an arm (BAP often fits into the CT) and cancel 1 enemy ECM inside 150m which may help other friendlys that stay inside that range to you as well - TAG only delivers a target but does not cancel other ECM effects.
BAP inreases the Sensor Range (200m afaik and BAP also has some effect (~30m or so) on the Target Range against enemy ECM Mechs).
BAP shortens the Target Info Gathering Time.
BAP detects shut down Mechs inside a 120m range (you still have to have a LOS afaik).

TAG is more usefull for some Lights and Self-Tagging LRM Mechs (but usualy you get so much enemy counterfire that you can not hold the LOS if not almost at the Minimum range for LRM (short flight time) or when the enemy is distracted from you.

UAV would be good but the experienced Players shot it down in around 10 seconds.

Edited by Thorqemada, 20 August 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[Heffey]

You should always BAP.

[Roughneck45]

LRM users should bring both for themselves and not rely on others for locks.

Asking people to "hold locks" is just asking people to "stand in the open and take fire"

If someone feels inclined to take a TAG when they don't have LRMs good for them. Personally, I'll take a medium laser every time, simply because I'm more confident in my ability to get the most out of that laser than a random players ability to make use of my TAG locks.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Koniving, on 20 August 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

BAP only supports yourself, but could cancel out ECM if you're brawling.

TAG supports other people and doesn't really do much for yourself.

Which would you like to do?

tl;dr therefor sorry if stated before.

BAP increases Sensorrange by 200m (together with Adv. Sensor module it's 1200m).
I wouldn't call that feature entirely useless for teamplay, just sayin'.

And TAG, well, faster missile locks + less spread. Ain't that bad if you're boating missiles and are able/do want to get your own locks.
TAG is my mainweapon on my little ECM Spider (and los missileboats in the backgrond ofc)

Edited by LOADED, 20 August 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[JC Daxion]

At times i find my Tag doesn't help me target, or takes a really long time to get it to work, Is that cause there are more than one ECM close to each other? It's like i can see the target, It want's to lock, but either blinks on and off, or just won't hold.

I have been caring my own tag for LRM's for a while now. It was a habit i picked up on my Catapult, and my 2X cataphract which i use it with a pair of streaks w/bap, I stuffed it in the other arm, which became a shield arm, because of the rest of the load out sticking a ML in that arm was pretty pointless.. Talk about a fast lock with that combo. I Always have a separate Key for when i wan't to use it alone, But adding Tag+streaks to my streak button, It gets them locking pretty darn fast. Sometimes i am surprised how a light zipping by gets locked before it can even get around a corner 50m away.


I have also used it on a few mechs that have extra energy Hard points for mechs that run hot. (my thunder bolts i have added it, as they run hot anyway and a few have a lot of energy points.) Nothing like finding an ECM mech far off thinking they are safe, Like up on the top ridge on Manifold, and suddenly LRM's are raining down on them. I swear i can hear them cursing me, as typically those small mechs don't have the load-outs to fire back at me, outside of maybe a ERLL or PPC, but honestly they are running more often than not when their ECM drops instead of trying to return fire which at best is maybe one shot before they bug out.

I do get the whole, be-careful part when tagging. I have had LRM's come my way more than once.. But as fast as they do, I am pretty sure they are just dumb firing without locks, So it is really quite easy to break LOS and duck um for the most part. (though i did just unlock the new LOS module, so when i save enough cash i will be buying that to use on my slower mechs. But it does have me wondering if it will be helpful for tagging and ducking out before the Rain comes down on my head with any Tagger)


I probably should of added this into the first post, But how are people liking NARC these days? I honestly have never used it but i do notice it pop up in matches some times but i am having a hard time figuring out how it works, or how much it is helping me as typically when i have fired at a mech with it, they have been out of site, so it is pretty hard to judge. It does have me wondering if i should give it a whirl. (does NARC also Break ECM when active?) Is it helpful to have BAP+TAG, or even artemis with it? I am pretty sure artemis speeds lock and tightens spread right? But at times i wonder if Artemis is worth the weight on the smaller missiles like 4's or 10's or even 5's. Perhaps Dropping it, and adding BAP would be working better?


I am playing wolverines ATM, and they really are conducive to LRMS, running with tag+a pair of 10's and a SRM 6, with a pair of machine guns.. though honestly as often as that machine gun arm gets blown off it has me thinking i should just drop the weapons and add bap anyway. That said, it does get me wondering if with 10's i should just drop artemis all together and go with the Bap+tag combo anyway.

I do wish more people would bring Bap+tag to the matches though even in PUG's. I have honestly felt like Tagging or even Bap has helped win matches from time to time. 2-mechs with Tag and a few with Bap, really could make a world of difference verse a team with 3 ECM mechs in crazy brawls with spiders, or even those light clanners.. feel free to think i am crazy

Edited by JC Daxion, 20 August 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[Heffey]

I always shake my head at the brawlers that don't bring a BAP and then complain about the lack of LRM support when they're under enemy ECM.