64 replies to this topic

[Lostdragon]

Viktor Drake, on 21 August 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Note: I believe this is one of the reasons why there is such a massive perception that clans are OPed. Unlike IS mechs which have many, many crappy variants that people are forced to play in order to master out a chassis, Clan mechs always have the best build options available to them and it shows in their overall performance.

Yeah, not having to play the clan equivalent of the SDR 5V helps clanners stats.

[Fuligin]

Viktor Drake, on 21 August 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Actually your argument doesn't really work since Clan mechs can swap omnipods. For example, my missile boat Kit Fox is currently armed with a ER PPC, 2 ER MLs, 2 MGs and ECM, no missiles to be found anywhere.

Basically because of this there is no such thing as a substandard Clan variant as you can damn near build all three variants to be identical, at least aside from those variants that offer a weapons mount in the CT.

However that is not to say that there isn't substandard Clan mechs. For example, there really isn't anything that will convince me that an Adder is as good or better than a Kit Fox. Also, the Summoner obviously isn't better than the Timber Wolf and actually potentially worse than alot of IS heavies. All I am saying is that every Clan variant has the potential to offer the very best build available to that chassis.

Note: I believe this is one of the reasons why there is such a massive perception that clans are OPed. Unlike IS mechs which have many, many crappy variants that people are forced to play in order to master out a chassis, Clan mechs always have the best build options available to them and it shows in their overall performance.

I think you are arguing the same point as me. I mentioned that clans can swap omnipods. What I said was that then the argument cannot be that clans mechs are straight up OP, but that clan mechs are OP when they use a meta build. That reduces to saying meta builds are OP. It works out like this:

Clan mechs when meta built (using whatever the person asking for tweaks thinks is op e.g lrm or clan medium laser) are OP.
All clan mechs can swap omnipods to get a meta build.
Therefore clan mechs are OP.

When we should actually conclude that the current meta builds are OP-- which they always will be. Of course some balancing might be in order, but just assigning all the blame to clan mechs and safe XL engines is not helpful. Just as you said, clan mechs' advantage is in being able to use a meta loadout all the time if you invest the c-bills.

[Mystere]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 21 August 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

... and was given the Daishi as a birthday present.

I was given these two for Christmas so many moons ago:

[Livewyr]

Food for thought for the OP:

Take this game:
"Released" with
10 maps,
3 (2) game modes.
Persistent Desyncs/Unstable servers.
Zero Community Warfare.
Terrible balance swings.
Unintuitive UI,
No real tutorial.
Horrible new player experience.

Now, tell me how far you think this game would get without it being the only new Option for Battletech themed games.
If they stray too far from btech.. they lose it. (They have already lost significant numbers.)

[Mystere]

Crystalnova, on 21 August 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

... in any other FTP game people will tell you to go do staff with yourselves after you show them that 240$ price ...

15,000 big ones! Holy cow!

[HlynkaCG]

RustyBolts, on 21 August 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

QQ nerf clans. Whah! How about nerfing IS lights. They are faster and have more ecm.

NOOOOOO NOT MY LOL-CUST!

[SaltBeef]

Good God!
15 grand! 0 packages left.
But who am I to say how people want to spend their monies.


Probably better for some than on High dollar hookers and drugs

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 August 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Jeb]

sigh another one of these threads...


Timberwolf needs to be slowed down a bit... for game balance it should not move as fast as a Jester or Medium mech and pack as much firepower as it does. I think before the speed tweak I found it fine though...


Clan ER Lasers vs IS lasers... The IS have nothing to poke back with at range other then the Gauss... Even the IS ER lasers don't reach.
I think the clan laser ranges should be dropped down to ranges the IS can poke back with... to keep them from becoming the same, give the Clan ER lasers a further max damage distance with longer burn times...

I honestly think those two things would make a HUGE difference in bringing the Clans VS IS tests closer together...


Also anyone going on about 90% loss in the tests? Get your head out of the sand and really think about the tests... clans have the advantage in those tests for sure... but I think it had a lot to do with mechs in the IS drops... you can't compare clan vs IS and have Timberwolves vs Catapults and not think the clans will have an advantage... TWs are 10 tons heavier and the best heavy in the game... (which does not mean it needs to be nerfed... some mech has to be the best... and a 75 ton one makes sense) Clan Lights fit more into a role that is IS Medium... but they lack the speed IS has... that means though they are bringing more firepower to the field and probably ECM since those lights are probably kitfoxes with ecm... IS may not have had any ECM at all...
Keep thinking about the differences in the teams... Clan mechs, 2 per weight class... IS? Tons of choices, some great, some not so great... Clans probably had the best of their weight class in most drops...

The end result was that the tests were not controlled very well... and while they may have shown us that Clan vs IS, clans do have an advantage, I don't think people really fully understand what that means or have looked beyond "OMG 90% nerf clans" What happens when a clan heavy comes out that is fun to play, but not as good as the Timberwolf? Well we will see more mixed choices in the heavies... more clan lights released? Less chance to have the Kitfox with it's ECM... etc etc etc

What happens if we nerf clans now? We end up with the clans sucking later... Right now though, the matchmaker is not ready for Clan vs IS IMO as it doesn't take into account tonnage enough...

[Jeb]

Fuligin, on 21 August 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Clan mechs when meta built (using whatever the person asking for tweaks thinks is op e.g lrm or clan medium laser) are OP.
All clan mechs can swap omnipods to get a meta build.
Therefore clan mechs are OP.

This is where your arguement breaks down...
The Summoner and Adder are not OP and can swap omnipods... most people with them would argue they are worse then a lot of IS mechs...

The fact is that there are 2 of each clan mech in each weight class... If one is good and one is bad, you have a very high chance that a player will be using the good one... IS though have a ton of choices for each weight class... and lots of them are lower weights then the Clans, and lots of them are subpar (and were subpar before clans were released) The IS has a higher chance of having lame ducks on it's team then the clans do, and they have a higher chance to be dropping with less tonnage on IS vs Clan tests...

[Fuligin]

Jeb, on 21 August 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

This is where your arguement breaks down...
The Summoner and Adder are not OP and can swap omnipods... most people with them would argue they are worse then a lot of IS mechs...

The fact is that there are 2 of each clan mech in each weight class... If one is good and one is bad, you have a very high chance that a player will be using the good one... IS though have a ton of choices for each weight class... and lots of them are lower weights then the Clans, and lots of them are subpar (and were subpar before clans were released) The IS has a higher chance of having lame ducks on it's team then the clans do, and they have a higher chance to be dropping with less tonnage on IS vs Clan tests...

What you quoted from my post is exactly the argument I was pointing out as FALSE. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Edited by Fuligin, 21 August 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Tastian]

Jeb, on 21 August 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

The IS has a higher chance of having lame ducks on it's team then the clans do

So, the next clan pack will be the other 8 base clan mechs (I'm guessing). I wonder which ones will become the new lame ducks.

[Jeb]

Fuligin, on 21 August 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

What you quoted from my post is exactly the argument I was pointing out as FALSE. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

ah sorry I must have misread it.

[Lupin]

My 10c on the continuing Clan OP topic. Lots of players playing with there new toy's so going to be more Clan out there at the moment than IS.
I mainly run IS light and medium and my WLR 1.14. 1.30 if you only count the just 2 mechs I use for conquest only.

Know your foe, CLAN do have disadvantages. But it not in a head to head trading blows.

[Carrie Harder]

For the 9002nd time, stop making sweeping generalizations about Clan gear. You cannot just shuffle every variant and weapon into a single bin of effectiveness, because their effectiveness wildly varies from chassis to chassis and weapon to weapon -- just like the Inner Sphere.

Clan Meta Chassis
Timberwolf
Stormcrow
Some Dire Wolf builds

Clan Meta Weapons
ERML
ERPPC
Gauss
SRM4
SRM6


^^That's it. Those are the only Clan things that are "overall better" than their IS counterparts.

Adders aren't overpowered, and are actually pretty terrible. Summoners aren't overpowered, and are really bad. Kit Foxes have niche roles of ECM trolling and 3 AMS, but otherwise are inferior to the good IS lights and mediums (which go nearly the same speed with more armor and firepower). Warhawks are roughly comparable to the good IS assaults, it does a few things better than they can while also doing a few things worse than they can. Novas are a one-trick pony that can only do one specific thing well, which is boating lasers; otherwise it's mediocre and not particularly tough due to meh hitboxes and mounting locations. Most Dire Wolf builds aren't overpowered because they're so goddamn slow and unagile; they have the firepower of a moonbase but they also have the maneuverability of one. Only the fringe builds like 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss can qualify as being overpowered, and even then they can often just be sidestepped and flanked.

The LB 2-X isn't overpowered, and is quite frankly almost useless. The Clan LB 10-X and LB 20-X suffer the same issues as their IS counterparts, in that they spread damage and do don't enough damage to compensate. The Clan LB 5-X is the only viable one of the bunch, but that doesn't make it OP. Clan Ultra ACs aren't overpowered (unless you have a SHITLOAD of them). Clan Lurms are situational (more versatile due to weight and min range, but are more vulnerable to AMS and having only partial volleys hit [lose lock before all missiles hit]). Clan "Standard" ACs are just trash. Clan Flamers are equally useless as IS Flamers. Clan Pulse is terrible, excluding the LPL which is just barely passable but still not meta. Clan SSRMs have the same weaknesses as IS versions, but with horrid cooldowns on the larger tubes. The Clan SRM2 is equally worthless as the IS version. The Clan ERLL, with its 2.0 second duration, does basically the same damage "per second" of the beam as an IS Medium Laser...lol. The Clan ERSL suffers the same issue as the IS Small Laser in that it is completely and utterly inferior to its medium-class counterpart (although not to as large of an extent for the Clan version. but the gap does still exist).



The only Clan items that can qualify as "overpowered" have been listed above. Focus your efforts on tweaking those items and those items only. To put this into perspective, the breakdown above means that 37.5% of Clan mechs are "better" than the IS, with the remaining 62.5% not being so. This also means that 15.625% of Clan weapons are meta compliant while the remaining 84.375% are roughly on-par or even inferior in some cases (like the [U]ACs and arguably ERLL). Just stop with the sweeping generalizations for crying out loud.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 21 August 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[Jeb]

Tastian, on 21 August 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

So, the next clan pack will be the other 8 base clan mechs (I'm guessing). I wonder which ones will become the new lame ducks.

Well here is the thing... if the devs go 12 vs 10... none of them can be lame ducks because that means they are intentionally making clan mechs better from here on out... which I dont' think is a good idea... look at the reaction to the Timberwolf... no one seems to care if it's balanced in 12 vs 10... they just think it's overpowered 1 vs 1 and are upset

Even if we don't see any lame ducks per say, if we end up with a fun 65 ton Heavy, it's probably not going to have the firepower the 75 ton TW has... people start bringing those mechs, and your losing tonnage on the clan side... That might not help if the IS team has a bunch of crappy mechs still... but it will start bringing things closer...

I am all for balance... I prefer balance as I find it more fun... I am just worried that we will see things swing too far in the nerfed direction, and they will end up garbage because of it.


edit (and I know you can have lighter mechs that are better then the heavier ones... tonnage isn't the end all of balance... but generally more tonnage means more firepower... and you can't really do anything to balance drops around hard points etc so tonnage is a good place to start IMO)

Edited by Jeb, 21 August 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[0bsidion]

The truth is unless you distill this game down to 1 mech you can't modify in any way true "balance" is a never ending wild goose chase. My take on the matter is that the game is a good analogy to real life where one country, faction, or opponent might simply be better equipped than you or out numbers you, and it boils down to your team and that thing between your ears that's hopefully doing more than keeping your skull from collapsing to make up the difference. If you can't appreciate this and the challenge that represents this probably isn't the game for you. Try checkers, I hear that game is perfectly balanced.

[DAYLEET]

TheFuzzyBunny, on 21 August 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

The issue you're probably seeing is really good players in them. Trust me, they're just as good in any mech.

What about baddies like me who have MUCH better stats in clan mech from the first match? I played nothing but my clan mech for a month then when i went back in IS it was obvious i had become lazy and i had to work much harder as well as readjust. Yes a better guy than me will perform great in any mech but the fact that a lousier guy will always do better in a clan mech should ring a bell. But all that i say does not matter because pig already did the test themselves, they posted the facts and i dont have to mention clanners were not happy to be told.

Do you remember when Russ said "Clanner will have to bring their skills" wasnt it precious? Do you look back on it laughing or shaking your head?

edit> ive not played the clan since and dont know how the recent change would affect my game.

Edited by DAYLEET, 21 August 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Jeb]

I find the clan mechs a bit more forgiving then IS mechs... so I don't buy the skill thing... but I don't find my K:D has gone up in them for the most part... I find them a bit easier to get higher dmg scores in them though, but I think that is due to the spread dmg...
For example I can clip an enemy with my long burntime ER-LL that I might not have clipped with my IS LL.

I honestly don't think dmg scores are a good indicator though... if I get 200 dmg and spread it all over the mech I don't think that is as good as if I get 200 dmg onto ST or CT locations... yes some will argue any dmg is better then none, but the entire idea of Torso Twisting to live longer is to spread that dmg around...
I am in lots of stomps where my teams dmg numbers are ok... but we failed to get the final blows in... drives me crazy when I see it... people with 800+ dmg and no kills? How do they even manage that lol... do they swap targets every chance they have?

Edited by Jeb, 21 August 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Fuligin]

Carrie Harder, on 21 August 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The only Clan items that can qualify as "overpowered" have been listed above. Focus your efforts on tweaking those items and those items only.

This is exactly what I think and I would put the emphasis on tweak, because they are not so incredibly overpowering that they need big smackdown nerfing. A few minor adjustments maybe. Let a couple of months pass and more clan mechs will be available for c-bills. After that I seriously doubt we will hear much of these complaints anymore as they will be not only available to all but also exposed to all as not being that uber after all.

Edit: Maybe it would help if they made some of the sub par clan mechs available as trial mechs for a few days? Just let everyone try adders for instance.

Edited by Fuligin, 21 August 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

I like how in the last Tournament the IS lights out damaged and out performed all those OP'd clan mechs.

I don't understand the lopsided reasoning of how allowing mechs the capability to move upwards of 50kph faster, smaller hit boxes, and quicker DPS weapons compared to those technologically superior Clans is considered "balancing."

But I imagine when the Free to Play crowd starts buying more clan mechs with their hard earned C-bills they'll eventually swarm to the forums and want their new purchases un-nerfed to original lore standards as well.