101 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'm saying that the 0.4 second burn time on MPLs and the lower heat per shot adds up pretty quickly. The days of PPFLD are coming to an end. That horn is blown. The question now is, what's next?

It does not have lower heat pet shot.

The cMPL has more heat per shot than the cERMLAS (5.5 vs. 5).

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 23 August 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

It does not have lower heat pet shot.

The cMPL has more heat per shot than the cERMLAS (5.5 vs. 5).

It should be at 4, same as the isMPL should be, which the isML actually is at.


PGI made small and med laser heat a very funny thing.

[MischiefSC]

Roland, on 23 August 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

The IS pulse lasers are still pretty terrible.

The clan pulse are generally also pretty bad, but with the most recent nerfs, the erll is even worse.

Like i said though, in skeptical about the clan medium pulse.. If have to check the stats, but the cerml is easily one of the best weapons in the entire game, so I find it hard to believe the medium pulse is better.

Screw the stats. I did the same thing and ignored it.

PLAY them. Roll that 0.4 seconds, use the shorter burn to stay on target.

My best luck has been 2LPLs, 4MPLs, all the DHS I can fit.

It's not just that it does well - it's that it does well *consistently*.

No bad luck ammo crits blowing an arm or torso off early, no missed shots due to range and trajectory changes.

My shots are always exactly where I am.

It helps. Do it. Try it.

[Roland]

I don't really have trouble keeping the medium lasers on target though, and the burn time is identical to the large pulse lasers, so it pairs well with them.

I don't see it being worth the sacrifices required to double the tonnage used on the mediums.

Edited by Roland, 23 August 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Roland, on 23 August 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I don't really have trouble keeping the medium lasers on target though, and the bien time is identical to the large pulse lasers, so it pairs well with them.

I don't see it being worth the sacrifices required to double the tonnage used on the mediums.

The real benefit?

They go WUBWUBWUB. Wub.

IS ones only go WUBWUBWUB.

[Carrie Harder]

Mcgral18, on 23 August 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

The real benefit?

They go WUBWUBWUB. Wub.

IS ones only go WUBWUBWUB.

Clan Pulses are full-on dubstep Wubstep.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Screw the stats. I did the same thing and ignored it.

PLAY them. Roll that 0.4 seconds, use the shorter burn to stay on target.

My best luck has been 2LPLs, 4MPLs, all the DHS I can fit.

It's not just that it does well - it's that it does well *consistently*.

No bad luck ammo crits blowing an arm or torso off early, no missed shots due to range and trajectory changes.

My shots are always exactly where I am.

It helps. Do it. Try it.

If you can keep those cLPLs on target at 1.3s, then you can keep the cERMLAS on target for 1.3s.

Which is better synergy, IMO.


They also have a narrower optimal range gap, but admittedly I've not done the math to see how much it would matter.

[Sorbic]

Crunk Prime, on 23 August 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Pulse lasers are always a waste of tonnage.

Always.

Use the tonnage you save with regular lasers to get more heatsinks/ammo/armor and learn how to properly aim so you can keep lasers on targets.

Blanket statements are always wrong.

Always.

Did that make anyones eye twitch?

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 23 August 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

It does not have lower heat pet shot.

The cMPL has more heat per shot than the cERMLAS (5.5 vs. 5).

My fault for confusing what I was talking about - I was looking at why I take the LPL instead of 2 additional MPLs and a TC.

My challenge still stands -

Try it. Clan pulse laser build, no ACs. SRMs if you want but otherwise trade the ERMLs to MPLs.

[MischiefSC]

Roland, on 23 August 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I don't really have trouble keeping the medium lasers on target though, and the burn time is identical to the large pulse lasers, so it pairs well with them.

I don't see it being worth the sacrifices required to double the tonnage used on the mediums.

The LPLs are for when you need that UMPH or you're at range and have more time.

Give it 10 drops and play it for the advantage it has. Range is almost identical but you're more likely to get more damage on point. Heat difference is negligible. A 40% increase in burn time is not.

To put into perspective is almost identical to the difference between IS LLs and how Clan ERLLs used to be. It's a significant difference in burn time and it affects how long you gotta stare. That directly affects both your ability to squeeze your shots into the same point in narrow timeslots and how soon you can twist.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

My fault for confusing what I was talking about - I was looking at why I take the LPL instead of 2 additional MPLs and a TC.

My challenge still stands -

Try it. Clan pulse laser build, no ACs. SRMs if you want but otherwise trade the ERMLs to MPLs.

I've been running nearly an identical build to the one Budor posted (which was creepy, like he was peering into my gyros) for about two weeks. He has an extra DHS, I have an extra JJ.

It's a very good build, very consistent - it has all of the pros you listed in your first post about hitscan and high alpha.

I've got to be on target for 1.3s with the cLPLs anyway, so I'd rather have more heatsinks, JJs, targeting computer/etc.

For example, and I'll assume you have 21 DHS, MK 1 comp and 1x JJ (and put it vs. 4x cERMLAS with 24 DHS, my build - Budor's goes up to 25 DHS).

4x cERMLAS with 24 DHS = 13 minutes to overheat with non-stop firing on heat neutral map.
4x cMPLs with 21 DHS = 45s to overheat with non-stop firing on a heat neutral map.

That's fairly humongous, and IMO more important than going from 1.3s to 0.9s burn time.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 23 August 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[Impyrium]

Clan large pulse lasers are incredibly good. They make the cERLL look pretty silly now, with that two second duration. I duct taped one onto my Kit Fox, it is really is pretty effective. I'm yet to try a TW pulse build, but I've seen them do well.

cPML don't quite have that gap between it and the normal cERML, but they are much more effective for getting damage out quicker. Not good for builds that need to stay in a fight for some time, but for hit and run they're brilliant.

[Asmudius Heng]

I have not used them but since the RANGE issue is addressed with the clan versions i am totally not surprised.

The main issue with the IS versions was the TERRIBLE.

That would not be so bad if the punch you packed at that range was useful ... but it isnt. The clan versions seem pretty good in that you can fight at some range and be able to still take cover.

Though yea, the CMedLas is pretty bad ass on its own ... what is the range of the clan LPL? 600? thats freaking good even with a longer burn time.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 23 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I've been running nearly an identical build to the one Budor posted (which was creepy, like he was peering into my gyros) for about two weeks. He has an extra DHS, I have an extra JJ.

It's a very good build, very consistent - it has all of the pros you listed in your first post about hitscan and high alpha.

I've got to be on target for 1.3s with the cLPLs anyway, so I'd rather have more heatsinks, JJs, targeting computer/etc.

For example, and I'll assume you have 21 DHS, MK 1 comp and 1x JJ (and put it vs. 4x cERMLAS with 24 DHS, my build - Budor's goes up to 25 DHS).

4x cERMLAS with 24 DHS = 13 minutes to overheat with non-stop firing on heat neutral map.
4x cMPLs with 21 DHS = 45s to overheat with non-stop firing on a heat neutral map.

That's fairly humongous, and IMO more important than going from 1.3s to 0.9s burn time.

I drop the TC and go with another DHS. The TC1 doesn't do much for me.

Here's the difference, and it's one I do using UAC5s instead of LPLs -

You need to keep the stare on for mroe than 1.3s at a time. It rocks well against 1 on 1 but you get into 2 on 1 and you get focused faster. It's a stare build.

With the pulse it's significantly easier to snap-shoot. You spread damage more and soak better. Also against lights and fast moving targets or narrow windows of opportunity it gives a 40% time benefit. The LPL I keep on target for 0.9 and burn the rest into the dirt if need be.

The times when I need to burn 13 minutes solid of lasers are pretty few and far between.

The times when I've only got 1 second or less to get my damage into the rear CT of the Timby circling the Dire Wolf next to me? That comes up a lot. The guy hill-humping or the Raven sprinting past to try and NARC me?

That happens often, every match. It's why if CERMLs had the range but not the damage buff over ISMLs, the ISML would be better - shorter range, sure, but the faster burn time equates directly to greater accuracy.

Not wanting to forum warrior it though.

CMPL Challenge -

Trade your CERMLs for CMPLs for 10 matches and try to play it to its strengths, give it an honest try.

Then say if it works or not.

I used to rag them up and down, then I tried them and played to that. Now I'm eating crow.

[Ph30nix]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

So I owe PGI an apology on Clan Pulse Lasers. I ragged all over them seven ways from Sunday, they were too heavy, too little benefit, etc.

Then I dropped with Captain Blanton and some other friends in group queue and watched him wreck face with 7 CMPLs and 2xSRM6s.

I don't mean a little, I mean hardcore flat out wreck FACE with them. As in 'rebar with a hunk of cement on the end getting swung by the Hulk at baby kittens' sort of wrecked face.

So I took my own twist on it and went with 2xCLPL, 4xCMPLs and like 6 or 7 extra DHS.

Hot damn. Seriously, it's 50pts of damage that's not hard to make pinpoint up close and runs terribly cool. I get 3 or 4 alpha strikes and if I have the target in sight for a few seconds (like brawling) I can essentially chain those bad boys up in 3 groups of 2 and just roll pain on someone in short, sharp bursts until I get tired of the scrolling 'component destroyed' message up the left side of my screen.

Clan pluse lasers are the BOMB DIGGITY.

So, eating crow on that one. It does, however, still taste like winning.

Anyone else finding magic in those clan Pulse Lasers?

well now i know who to blame when they nerf clan pulse laser....

be ready for pitch forks dude just sayin

[MischiefSC]

So I ran 10 matches with ERMLs in with more DHS. It certainly ran cooler....

But way less damage/match and fewer kills, as well as fewer wins. 10 matches isn't a big sample but it's significant.

Stare less, pop and shoot more. With 50pts per alpha in less than 1 second if you need mor than 2.... you're doing it wrong.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 23 August 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

I agree that burn duration can be useful, but for clan pulse lasers we are still near one second for MPLs, for the same alpha damage and the same heat.

It's a marginal "DPS" increase, but once you get stuck in a brawl having 4 to 7 more DHS, completely viable on something like a Timberwolf or Stormcrow, the efficiency tips the scale IMO at that point to hugely favor the standard cERMLAS.

cLPL is a special case, because IMO it's better than the cERLLAS at the moment due to how bad the cERLLAS is.

It's not hotter, it's just heavier but some builds can spare the tonnage.




We can talk trends once this is beyond one good player.

Anything else is really just an anecdote. Kudos to your friend though, and grats on 4th - it's nothing to be disappointed about.





For several mechs, I would put the clan LPL vs. the cERLLAS any day of the week right now.

4-5 of the top TW pilots in CGB run that build. As Mischief noted, he was running with someone using it.

Trends lend to EZMode, EZMode alone does not define "effective".

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 23 August 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

The IS pulse lasers are still pretty terrible.

The clan pulse are generally also pretty bad, but with the most recent nerfs, the erll is even worse.

Like i said though, in skeptical about the clan medium pulse.. If have to check the stats, but the cerml is easily one of the best weapons in the entire game, so I find it hard to believe the medium pulse is better.

Range on the IS ERML is great. And it's cooler than the CMPL. CMPL still has really good range, and has nearly a half second (.4) second shorter burn, for marginally higher damage.

What most people don't seem to get is a lot of "bad" really means situational. Even the IS MPL are highly effective, for fast, shortrange mechs, because they allow you to torso twist MUCH faster.

I find it curious all the "experts" expound the importance of twisting, then overlook the value of weapons that let you actually do it.

[Roland]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

So I ran 10 matches with ERMLs in with more DHS. It certainly ran cooler....

But way less damage/match and fewer kills, as well as fewer wins. 10 matches isn't a big sample but it's significant.

Stare less, pop and shoot more. With 50pts per alpha in less than 1 second if you need mor than 2.... you're doing it wrong.

The thing is, you have the LPL, so you still need to face your target for the full duration time as the cerml.

That's why I'm not seeing the point of pairing them with the lpl. The erml has better synergy.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Give it a run. The Timby boats lasers rather well, I bet the Stormcrow does too. Run less DHS overall but with pulse instead of ER and run it like it was an oldschool AC/PPC face-buster. You get used to that hitscan accuracy and a bit of careful mousework for aiming and it's just flat out performing better for me. You don't have to rely on AC screenshake to throw the guys aim off while you give him the UAC/CERML staredown.

Um, I have given it a run. I'm agreeing with you, ya daft rabbit!

I'm the guy, with McGral18 who sings the praises of WUBshees, if ya recall?