946 replies to this topic

[QuackAttack]

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

70 players is enough to play 3 matches back to back without repeats.

Honestly?

I'd be happy with an official announcement that sync dropping is breaking the rules and can be reported. Even if it's only investigated in egregious examples that's fine.

Discouragement is fine. It really comes down to 'what is the point of the queue'. If it's solo players... then sync dropping is against the rules there. That's exactly the whole reason why the group/solo queues got created - to deal with sync dropping. Phases 3 and 4 are exactly what's being discussed as a way to stop sync dropping and groups rolling against pugs.

We're now in phase 4. I'm all for their being more important issues right now but a non-response is the worst possible answer. If the answer is 'Yeah, it happens and we're okay with it' then fine - You can get a decent estimate of relative Elo scores and with a bit of trial and error get the detail of drop order to best sync with in an evening and actually do so effectively. If it's not okay... then say it's not okay. Will people still do it? Sure but only people who are legit cheats. The current approach of yes/no/maybe is bad.

You got the first part of the math correct. For 1 player there needs to be 69 other unique players to play 3 matches with out seeing the same person twice. However you need to carry that out to all 24 players.
Match one 24 players
Match 2 for each player no repeats requires 24x24=576 players dropping at around the same time. With approximately the same ELO and proper mech classes.
Match 3 for each of those 576 you need to make sure that they have not played with anyone else in their previous 3 matches 576*24=13,824. For no repeats from the last match and again for the match before =331,776 players playing at around the same time. Now it is actually less, then this but that is above my math to get the exact number. However I'm just trying to get the idea across of how many players would be required and how much data and processing would be involved in a matchmaking process that already has problems creating matches often enough.

[Wrathful-Khan]

+1 for Syncs don't even work reliably enough to bother.

Thanks for pointing out what a whackjob this mudhutwarrior guy is - this thread and all the linked threads have been an absolute hoot! I was supposed to be in bed an hour ago...

[MischiefSC]

The quote about it not being an exploit is from 2012 and says that changes mm phase 3. We are currently in phase 4. I also contacted support who said it is an exploit and one they investigate when reported but they had bigger fish to fry generally. So I isn't kept up on the topic.

The number I gave was sufficient population for not dropping with the same person in any 3 consecutive matches. 23*23*3, which would about work. You would only need 300k if you assume never seeing anyone twice, while I'm just looking at the same person in any 3 consecutive.

Moot as if it's made clear it's an exploit as the post from Paul implies it will be in the existing mm and support directly said it'll be way less of an issue.

[DjPush]

I dont get what you mean by sync drop. You can have any number of players in group cues now. Why would there be any need for sync dropping g?

[Appogee]

DjPush, on 31 August 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

I dont get what you mean by sync drop. You can have any number of players in group cues now. Why would there be any need for sync dropping g?

There's no need, but apparently people do it to try to get an unfair advantage in a queue that's supposed to be solo players.

Maybe it works for them. For the past three days I have been dropping in a team of 2 with my son. Oh My God, you would not believe the crap teams that we have been put on.

For example, today, three matches in a row, half the players on our team didn't even score 100 damage. One team died in 2 minutes and 30 seconds, leaving my son and I to face 12 barely-damaged opponents. We stopped playing after that because it's all just too damned frustrating to play when you're being dumped in such clueless teams against competent opponents.

There's no way these people can be in the same Elo bracket as my son and I. So I don't know what the hell the matchmaker is doing when it persistently drops us in teams that comprise at least half new/inexperienced players. There's no balance at all.

Edited by Appogee, 31 August 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Appogee, on 31 August 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

There's no need, but apparently people do it to try to get an unfair advantage in a queue that's supposed to be solo players.

How is teaming up in a team game an "Unfair Advantage". Its a game where the best team wins. So when I drop PUG
and lose, I was not on the best team. What ever the reason my team was second best. If I see identical unit tags, I know I will be in for a good fight. Win or lose.

[Appogee]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 August 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

How is teaming up in a team game an "Unfair Advantage". Its a game where the best team wins. So when I drop PUG
and lose, I was not on the best team. What ever the reason my team was second best. If I see identical unit tags, I know I will be in for a good fight. Win or lose.

Two people sync dropping get the advantage of voice comms, enabling them to coordinate their attacks, focus fire etc. It's definitely a competitive advantage against the players who are dropping solo in what is both named and intended to be the "solo queue".

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 30 August 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

Could block people in the same group from dropping together - could simply check to see if two people have been in the same match in the last 3 matches and if so, whichever one has been waiting the shortest gets pushed to the next match (preventing anyone from lagging out in the queue) - if Elo and matchmaking allows. Obviously if someone hits whatever the tolerances for wait times and Elo matching gets dropped together.

There are a slew of fixes that would involve minimal effort to implement.

So what about when you and I were in the Que together for 3-5 matches? I have been on comms with a few players that are not Lawmen (officially), or the guys I dropped with for Stock Mech Mondays? Where does the line get drawn for the PUG Que? "Oh, Joseph and Bishop have been on Comms together, I cannot put them in a PUG match together." -Matchmaker-

Thats just hog wash. If we are in a group in game we get dropped in the 12 man as the game is meant to do, but as random PUGs, I NEVER want to see the game separate friends cause they know each other.

[ApolloKaras]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 August 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

So what about when you and I were in the Que together for 3-5 matches? I have been on comms with a few players that are not Lawmen (officially), or the guys I dropped with for Stock Mech Mondays? Where does the line get drawn for the PUG Que? "Oh, Joseph and Bishop have been on Comms together, I cannot put them in a PUG match together." -Matchmaker-

Thats just hog wash. If we are in a group in game we get dropped in the 12 man as the game is meant to do, but as random PUGs, I NEVER want to see the game separate friends cause they know each other.

Joe we're not referring to the off chance that you meet up with ONE other pilot... The accusation is that people are syncing more than 2 folks for an advantage. I personally think it's garbage however you have just one in the thread that says they do it consistently. I also think that this will create a witch hunt "omg 3 people from x Corp in the same game they must have attempted to sync!!" this community is too reactionary, and they won't ask questions like "huh I wonder how big the unit is..."

[Joseph Mallan]

Saxie, on 31 August 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Joe we're not referring to the off chance that you meet up with ONE other pilot... The accusation is that people are syncing more than 2 folks for an advantage. I personally think it's garbage however you have just one in the thread that says they do it consistently. I also think that this will create a witch hunt "omg 3 people from x Corp in the same game they must have attempted to sync!!" this community is too reactionary, and they won't ask questions like "huh I wonder how big the unit is..."

And the suggestion of a few, is to remove the possibility of me dropping in a match that DocBach or any other Lawman is in if we are both PUGging it separately. I am saying no to that line of thinking.

Appogee, on 31 August 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Two people sync dropping get the advantage of voice comms, enabling them to coordinate their attacks, focus fire etc. It's definitely a competitive advantage against the players who are dropping solo in what is both named and intended to be the "solo queue".

And when/if the solo Que gets comms working(I know I know)? Still think there needs to be a solo Que? It kinda defeats the "teams with gaps filled by Lone Wolves/PUGs.

[ApolloKaras]

I agree with your line of thinking. The issue is the folks that attempt to supposedly abuse it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Saxie, on 31 August 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I agree with your line of thinking. The issue is the folks that attempt to supposedly abuse it.

I have no trouble with it myself. If others wanna bring me a better challenge, I'm up for it. If I can game with my team mates, we drop on the teams Que. I'm easy to get along with like that.

[Sandpit]

I still don't understand why people are arguing over this.

It's not illegal until pgi says otherwise. Period. No "but but but". It's simply not against the rules unless pgi changes their stance about it. If you don't like pgi's stance on it tell them about it but stop attacking players over it.

Sick and tired of players and community in general getting blamed, attacked, and belittled because pgi (not the players) made a decision about it.

It's not mine or joe's or khu, or mud's, or mischief's, or any other players' fault or decision to make. If you feel pgi (not the players) made a poor decision regarding it then take it up with them.

No amount of "I think it's wrong" or "you're a (insert derogatory term here) changes the FACT that pgi has said it's not illegal.

[QuackAttack]

I think I just figured out how community warfare is supposed to work! Vocal group of QQrs attack on the forums, with "I lose matches and I blame X and and I have no evidence!" Pew Pew'rs counter attack with Dev Quotes, lazy math and testimonials as to what is actually being done.

Now I'm not sure how this all translates into capturing planets and whatnot.....

[bobF]

One would think sync-dropping is an epidemic, but I'm still not seeing it in solo queue. Last night I was facing a team that had like 7 founder tags, thought to myself "here we go, my first sync drop spanking." We beat them 12-4. Dunno if they were all screwing around, drunk, clown builds for fun, or just collectively sucked that particular game, but w/e. Then faced a team with almost all lonewolves. Got spanked 12-0. I did 6 (six) damage that round, playing hiking simulator with my DDC on terrible therma trying to find a spot to shoot from not blocked by teammates standing still. Was it a sync drop? I'm not sure. And who cares. Sync dropping is no more disruptive than some bored group queue player coming in with a meta build and carrying a team with 5+ kills and 1000+ damage.

This thread needs to get closed down. In 37 pages, we have a handful of anecdotal screenshots, argument from all perspectives, a post from PGI already addressing the issue, somebody's cut and paste of a canned CSR email as "evidence," and all kinds of indignant mouthbreathery from players who are farming nubs anyway. If you guys find it hard to get a response from PGI on issues that actually matter, what makes you think they are suddenly going to vigorously address the alleged, apparent plague of sync droppers?

Again, this thread is just more hall-monitor whining from people who fancy themselves some kind of jr community police. Please move on.

[Darth Futuza]

Appogee, on 31 August 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

There's no way these people can be in the same Elo bracket as my son and I. So I don't know what the hell the matchmaker is doing when it persistently drops us in teams that comprise at least half new/inexperienced players. There's no balance at all.

I think that part of the problem is the fact that the matchmaker gets broken when large numbers of the same type of mech (Nova's lately), are 50+% of the number of mech's being dropped it has a hard time balancing you. Plus a lot of them are inexperienced, not because they suck at MWO in general, but because they've never played a Nova. Of course...the Matchmaker has always been a troll so...take that with a grain of salt.

[MischiefSC]

What I like is all the sweeping assumptions and ad hominem. We currently have a 2 year old quote saying sync was okay until mm 3, we are now in 4. I have an email from support saying it's not legit. Still waiting for an official response, support said they would prod someone to do so, I also messaged someone. However it's been a busy week for PGI and a bit of a delay is reasonable.

[bobF]

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

What I like is all the sweeping assumptions and ad hominem.

I 100% agree. Saying that sync dropping is a frequent, game-impacting occurrence, and then labeling it cheating without clear statements from PGI or irrefutable evidence is highly irresponsible

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

We currently have a 2 year old quote saying sync was okay until mm 3, we are now in 4.

No, the quote said something would be "done" in phase 3, since it was an unintentional side effect of the MM. You two guys are the only ones trying to spin this into some kind of "PGI gave permission to cheat until phase 4, now it's phase 4 so you guys are cheating" nonsense specious argument. Since it's phase 4 we can rest assured it's been addressed and move on, the likelyhood of you and just one other poster blowing it up into a national issue being extremely high.

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

I have an email from support saying it's not legit. Still waiting for an official response, support said they would prod someone to do so, I also messaged someone. However it's been a busy week for PGI and a bit of a delay is reasonable.

If you're young I understand, because when you become an adult you learn that the vast majority of "customer service" is actually up-sale and marketing. You're made to feel like you matter, so you keep contributing dollars. I'm sure in your head your email was passed directly up the chain and a meeting was held to discuss this burning issue and how to resolve it; but what actually happened is that it crossed the work queue of some minor admin functionary who already has over 9000 more important things to do, and marked for later reading by someone else who has over 9000 more important things to do. Growing up is hard.

[Joseph Mallan]

And yet, in 37 pages of discussion, not once has there been a statement one way or the other. Until such occurs, both opinions are valid.

[MischiefSC]

bobF, on 31 August 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

I 100% agree. Saying that sync dropping is a frequent, game-impacting occurrence, and then labeling it cheating without clear statements from PGI or irrefutable evidence is highly irresponsible



No, the quote said something would be "done" in phase 3, since it was an unintentional side effect of the MM. You two guys are the only ones trying to spin this into some kind of "PGI gave permission to cheat until phase 4, now it's phase 4 so you guys are cheating" nonsense specious argument. Since it's phase 4 we can rest assured it's been addressed and move on, the likelyhood of you and just one other poster blowing it up into a national issue being extremely high.



If you're young I understand, because when you become an adult you learn that the vast majority of "customer service" is actually up-sale and marketing. You're made to feel like you matter, so you keep contributing dollars. I'm sure in your head your email was passed directly up the chain and a meeting was held to discuss this burning issue and how to resolve it; but what actually happened is that it crossed the work queue of some minor admin functionary who already has over 9000 more important things to do, and marked for later reading by someone else who has over 9000 more important things to do. Growing up is hard.

Nice tone-troll and false argument from authority there, wrapped with an ad hominem. Admittedly you're arguing for the validity of sync dropping in the solo queue (funny name that, amirite?) as something other than an exploit. Which, in the link provided prior, is exactly what Paul calls it - an exploit. Hence why I didn't say 'cheater' but 'exploiter'. You don't really have a defensible point to make aside from 'if I'm not banned for it than it's legit'.

I'm going to link you to the thread, from 2012, that people are talking about. Keep in mind this was from 8v8 days. If you don't read that as PGI not approving of sync drops but that it wasn't worth the effort to pursue and punish because there was no easy way to tell if it's on purpose or an accident then... well, get glasses? They created a Group queue separate fro ma Solo queue. Your take is that's so only sync dropping groups are allowed to play against solos? Is that your logic?

Also saying that the GM I talked to in support doesn't actually know the rules when, in fact, that's the people rule violations get reported to is a bit silly. Why don't you e-mail them and see what response you get. The response I got was in a private conversation and clearly wasn't intended as an 'official response to the public' so I'm not posting it here. Why take my word anyway?

Go ahead, e-mail support, see what response you get. I'll wait here for a response from PGI in a public statement. If it's legit or not legit now that they've split the queue (which was done, again, because of complaints about sync drops and splitting solo players and pugs. Again, try reading the threads that came before this one, the 84% solo drops bit, etc)

Admittedly I don't think any of this is going to tell you what you want to hear so why don't you try to assume some authority you don't have again or otherwise imply that I don't understand what's going on, since if I 'understood' then you wouldn't need to explain how sync dropping in order to bypass the built in restriction of solo drops in the solo queue isn't an exploit. Is it punishable? That's not what I said. Is it an exploit? Of course it is. It also has no justification save... wait, here, I'll quote the bit that Paul quoted to explain PGIs stance on sync drops as of 2012:

Quote

sync drops were never intended. Its just a way for the people hwo have been crying about having to play with pugs, and when they finally have a system so that these 8 mans dont have to play with pugs,

to now exploit the system, because now all of a sudden they miss stomping pugs.

and need to use an exploit to get more players in than intended.

Huh. Yeah, that.