90 replies to this topic

[Viges]

Wintersdark, on 25 August 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

No, there's not.

Ok, no Marauder then *sad face*

[BoomDog]

It's sad I'll never pilot a Warhammer in this game. A mech I played purely because I liked how it looked, lol.

[3rdworld]

Why do you guys hate Harmony Gold so much?


They created the designs, and have every right to protect their copy written works. If the original Btech artists had been more creative instead of plagiarizing other people, we wouldn't have this issue. To me if you want to be mad at someone be mad at who tried to pass off others work as their own.

[Apnu]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Why do you guys hate Harmony Gold so much?


They created the designs, and have every right to protect their copy written works. If the original Btech artists had been more creative instead of plagiarizing other people, we wouldn't have this issue. To me if you want to be mad at someone be mad at who tried to pass off others work as their own.

They did not create the designs. Macross was created by Shōji Kawamori of Studio Nue in 1982, produced by Tatsunoko Production Co. Harmony Gold, in 1985, released Macross as Robotech in the US.

Battletech by FASA was first produced in 1984 in the US.

Harmony Gold sued FASA, claiming they had exclusive rights to the Macross designs in North America. FASA counter sued, and they went back and forth quite a bit until Harmony Gold decided to wall paper FASA's office with lawsuits. Fearing they'd be financially crippled answering all those suits, they settled with Harmony Gold, even though, had they gone to trial, they would have won since BattleTech came out a year before Robotech.

Now, years later Microsoft buys FASA Interactive, the video game arm of FASA. As a result they inherited the settlement and must adhere to it. From a MechWarrior perspective Harmony Gold "owns" the Macross mech images. Its air tight.

PGI, since they lease the IP from Microsoft to make this game, must also adhere to the settlement.

Now you know why so many people hate Harmony Gold. They exist to produce ever crappy Robotech DVDs in North America and sue the hell out of anybody they can get their hands on.

[Mathies Jaeger]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Why do you guys hate Harmony Gold so much?


They created the designs, and have every right to protect their copy written works. If the original Btech artists had been more creative instead of plagiarizing other people, we wouldn't have this issue. To me if you want to be mad at someone be mad at who tried to pass off others work as their own.

If my understanding is correct, its not quite like the BT guys just copied images and used them without permission. IIRC, way back in the day there were seperate companies that handled distribution of the images related to Macross, Robotech, etc. in Japan and in North America. Battetech purchased rights for NA distribution. Eventually though, one of the companies closed, or merged, or something, and HG obtained the rights. There was some legal grey zone about whether Battletech could still legally use those rights. HG was willing to fight for it harder than it was apparently worth it, some settlement was reached, and now never more will we see the old Marauder. I know there are others on the forums who know the whole business better though, so I might be wrong in some of the details.

Edit: I see Apnu beat me to the punch.

Edited by Mathies Jaeger, 25 August 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[3rdworld]

Apnu, on 25 August 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

They did not create the designs. Macross was created by Shōji Kawamori of Studio Nue in 1982, produced by Tatsunoko Production Co. Harmony Gold, in 1985, released Macross as Robotech in the US.

Battletech by FASA was first produced in 1984 in the US.

Harmony Gold sued FASA, claiming they had exclusive rights to the Macross designs in North America. FASA counter sued, and they went back and forth quite a bit until Harmony Gold decided to wall paper FASA's office with lawsuits. Fearing they'd be financially crippled answering all those suits, they settled with Harmony Gold, even though, had they gone to trial, they would have won since BattleTech came out a year before Robotech.

Now, years later Microsoft buys FASA Interactive, the video game arm of FASA. As a result they inherited the settlement and must adhere to it. From a MechWarrior perspective Harmony Gold "owns" the Macross mech images. Its air tight.

PGI, since they lease the IP from Microsoft to make this game, must also adhere to the settlement.

Now you know why so many people hate Harmony Gold. They exist to produce ever crappy Robotech DVDs in North America and sue the hell out of anybody they can get their hands on.

Ya, na. Harmony gold had the right to macross images in the USA, January 1984. Not to mention the large number of other designs stolen from other companies, gives me very little reason to believe FASA did not knowingly steal other peoples work.

That was the entire purpose of the Phoenix pack, releasing mechs that had been put to unseen because they were ripoffs. Read the court case. FASA knowingly used macross designs but thought they had acquired the rights, but hadn't.

Battletech was originally called "Battledroids" but Lucas film claimed the rights to "druids". The company has been marred by copyright infringement since it was created.

Whether you like robotech is irrelevant. Stop stealing other peoples stuff and you stop having legal problems.

Edited by 3rdworld, 25 August 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[Apnu]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Ya, na. Harmony gold had the right to macross images in the USA, January 1984. Not to mention the large number of other designs stolen from other companies, gives me very little reason to believe FASA did not knowingly steal other peoples work.

Not true, FASA showed in court, they had documents showing they had permission to use those images from the source companies in Japan.

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Ya, na. Harmony gold had the right to macross images in the USA, January 1984. Not to mention the large number of other designs stolen from other companies, gives me very little reason to believe FASA did not knowingly steal other peoples work.

That was the entire purpose of the Phoenix pack, releasing mechs that had been put to unseen because they were ripoffs. Read the court case. FASA knowingly used macross designs but thought they had acquired the rights, but hadn't

FASA had licensed the images fair and square.

Then the case went to court in Japan over who actually owned the rights to license the things overseas, and the company FASA had licensed from lost. Harmony Gold, having licensed from the company that won the Japanese lawsuit, promptly sued FASA.

It's a tangled web, 30 years in the making.

The bottom line though is that FASA used the images they had properly licensed, there was no "theft" involved.

The Reseen redesigns were created because all of a sudden there's about two dozen 'mechs referenced in the source material that they couldn't show images of, so they had to create new designs. Sadly, they tripped on something and hit their face right in the fugly bucket with those. But that's why they were created.

Edited by stjobe, 25 August 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[3rdworld]

Apnu, on 25 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Not true, FASA showed in court, they had documents showing they had permission to use those images from the source companies in Japan.

Which is it? Your first statement was they created them before Harmony, and now you are saying they bought them legally?


And they bought the "rights" from Twentieth Century Imports not Tatsunoko. Which is why they lost their case. They never actually acquired the legal rights to the works.

stjobe, on 25 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

FASA had licensed the images fair and square.

Then the case went to court in Japan over who actually owned the rights to license the things overseas, and the company FASA had licensed from lost. Harmony Gold, having licensed from the company that won the Japanese lawsuit, promptly sued FASA.

It's a tangled web, 30 years in the making.

The bottom line though is that FASA used the images they had properly licensed, there was no "theft" involved.

The Reseen redesigns were created because all of a sudden there's about two dozen 'mechs referenced in the source material that they couldn't show images of, so they had to create new designs. Sadly, they tripped on something and hit their face right in the fugly bucket with those. But that's why they were created.

So they released images taken from another, that they didn't have the legal right to?

But all they had to do from the very beginning: Be original.

The point about the phoenix mechs, they didn't just use images taken from Macross, they used half a dozen other companies works. Is it irritating that harmony won't work with Btech to use their images? Sure, but it is certainly within their rights.

Edited by 3rdworld, 25 August 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[stjobe]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

So they released images taken from another, that they didn't have the legal right to?

No, they licensed the images from the rights holder. Fair and square, legal and above board.

The rights holder then lost those rights in a court case, where the court decided to grant the right to license Macross overseas to another company.

From that point onward, FASA didn't have the rights to show the Macross images. Prior to that though, they had every right.

[Apnu]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Which is it? Your first statement was they created them before Harmony, and now you are saying they bought them legally?


And they bought the "rights" from Twentieth Century Imports not Tatsunoko. Which is why they lost their case. They never actually acquired the legal rights to the works.

FASA bought rights, were they the correct rights holders? That's a different question. So don't accuse them of being thieves. The notion they are IP thieves is Harmony Gold FUD. FASA legitimately thought they had acquired the the IP from who they thought were rights holders in Japan. They didn't lose the case either, they settled. No judgement was awarded to Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold had more and better lawyers and the financing to willingly tie FASA up in litigation forever. That's why FASA settled, the legal bills became too expensive for them to bear. Its common practice in the American legal system.

As to who came first, FASA did. Battletech came out in 1984 a year before Harmony Gold released Robotech in America in 1985. Check wikipedia dude.

On edit: Check stjobe's post above this one.

Edited by Apnu, 25 August 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[Apnu]

stjobe, on 25 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Sadly, they tripped on something and hit their face right in the fugly bucket with those. But that's why they were created.

I do like the redesigned Thunderbolt and Griffin here in MWO. Especially the Thunderbolt, it looks much better than the original TRO 3025 drawing. Sadly the reseen Archer looks like ass. *sigh* That's the one I want to drive the most in MWO.

[Redshift2k5]

PGI diesn't eve own the rights to Mechwarrior/Battletech/it's ingredients, they are only liscened (borrowing!) the rights to make a video game.

A liscencee is not the right entity to go about making lawsuits, it would have to be the owner of the copyright (Microsoft, as it says on the bottom of every page on the website!) and in general these entities have agreed to stop wasting time fighting over it.

you're not getting a Maruader until Harmony Gold goes away forever.

[3rdworld]

Redshift2k5, on 25 August 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

you're not getting a Maruader until Harmony Gold goes away forever.

That or wait until around 2080, when the copyright expires.

[stjobe]

Apnu, on 25 August 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I do like the redesigned Thunderbolt and Griffin here in MWO. Especially the Thunderbolt, it looks much better than the original TRO 3025 drawing. Sadly the reseen Archer looks like ass. *sigh* That's the one I want to drive the most in MWO.

Aye, the MWO Phoenix 'mechs are mostly good-looking. I'm talking about the TRO:Project Phoenix designs, like this butt-ugly Phoenix Hawk:



Those are all some of the fugliest mecha around.

[Asakara]

SirLANsalot, on 24 August 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

The fact still stands that HG has no leg to stand on when it comes to there "copyrighted" stuff.

If you did take them to court on it, you would win. The material stuff in question is not being used, and has not been used for many years, thus nullifying anything they MIGHT think they "own". Courts would rule in favor of PGI due to a company currently looking to use said material, while the other company who "owns" the stuff is doing nothing with it.

There have been court cases over the art since the FASA days. They have been in Japan and one the most notable was one in 2006: LINK for the whole legal story and note the "update" at the bottom.

The 2006 ruling was for Divided Rights to the art in question. What does that mean? FTA:

"In fact, they mean that Tatsunoko (in Japan, and hence Harmony Gold outside of Japan) has the exclusive right to distribute and merchandise the Macross show that’s been made already and all elements within it; Big West and Studio Nue have the exclusive right to make new derivative works based on those elements. This could have interesting implications for the planned Robotech live-action movie. (Though it does set up the question of whether the BattleTech game would legally be considered merchandising of the Harmony Gold-owned Macross, or a derivative work based on the Nue-owned mecha designs.)"

Though IANAL, it seems to me that if MWO was considered a derivative work then PGI/IGP could license the art from Studio Nue and Tatsunoko (aka HG) would have nothing to say about it.

Edited by Asakara, 25 August 2014 - 08:56 AM.

[3rdworld]

Apnu, on 25 August 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

FASA bought rights, were they the correct rights holders? That's a different question. So don't accuse them of being thieves. The notion they are IP thieves is Harmony Gold FUD. FASA legitimately thought they had acquired the the IP from who they thought were rights holders in Japan. They didn't lose the case either, they settled. No judgement was awarded to Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold had more and better lawyers and the financing to willingly tie FASA up in litigation forever. That's why FASA settled, the legal bills became too expensive for them to bear. Its common practice in the American legal system.

As to who came first, FASA did. Battletech came out in 1984 a year before Harmony Gold released Robotech in America in 1985. Check wikipedia dude.

On edit: Check stjobe's post above this one.

http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-4.txt

Perhaps you should read the case. Harmony sent Fasa cease and desist orders in 1985. Fasa was sued in 1995. Fasa asked for a summary judgement to dismiss the suet. They lost, and the request for summary was dismissed.

After that they settled with harmony.

The facts are quite clear. They bought the rights from someone who didn't own them, were notified they didn't have the right to them. Where eventually sued over it. But talking about this with you 2 is pointless, you have some very dark rose colored glasses.

The only real question is why harmony didn't sue FASA in the 80s, and why they waited until 1995 to do so.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Why do you guys hate Harmony Gold so much?


They created the designs, and have every right to protect their copy written works. If the original Btech artists had been more creative instead of plagiarizing other people, we wouldn't have this issue. To me if you want to be mad at someone be mad at who tried to pass off others work as their own.

They created nothing. They "licensed" the images from a company that had the rights to license the property out for Studio Nue, they have then gone around yelling at anyone who attempts to use it as "Non-robotech/macross" Stuff.

Studio Nue from Japan has cut all ties at all with HG, and refuses to let them import any more Macross because of the fuckedup butcher job they did with Robotech. And their subsiquent copywright trolling.

Japanese courts have already ruled that HG has no rights at all to any of the images used in Macross.

Why the US courts don't just agree with the Japanese ruling's are beyond me.

[Apnu]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-4.txt

Perhaps you should read the case. Harmony sent Fasa cease and desist orders in 1985. Fasa was sued in 1995. Fasa asked for a summary judgement to dismiss the suet. They lost, and the request for summary was dismissed.

After that they settled with harmony.

The facts are quite clear. They bought the rights from someone who didn't own them, were notified they didn't have the right to them. Where eventually sued over it. But talking about this with you 2 is pointless, you have some very dark rose colored glasses.

The only real question is why harmony didn't sue FASA in the 80s, and why they waited until 1995 to do so.

Coming from the person who thinks FASA "stole" the designs then produces info showing they never stole a thing. Pot meet kettle.

stjobe already told you. Harmony Gold couldn't sue FASA until lawsuits in Japan were settled over who owned the original designs. FASA had bought rights from one company, Harmony Gold from the other. The company that Harmony Gold had leased rights from won out. Were it the other way, FASA would have sued the hell out of Harmony Gold and we'd have Marauders in the game right now.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

3rdworld, on 25 August 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/legal-4.txt

Perhaps you should read the case. Harmony sent Fasa cease and desist orders in 1985. Fasa was sued in 1995. Fasa asked for a summary judgement to dismiss the suet. They lost, and the request for summary was dismissed.

After that they settled with harmony.

The facts are quite clear. They bought the rights from someone who didn't own them, were notified they didn't have the right to them. Where eventually sued over it. But talking about this with you 2 is pointless, you have some very dark rose colored glasses.

The only real question is why harmony didn't sue FASA in the 80s, and why they waited until 1995 to do so.

Harmony gold never sent anything to Fasa in the 80's... Now LUCASFILM.LTD DID send FASA a CnD over the use of the word "Droid." [Battletech was originally called Battledroids in 1984, the next printing was changed to BattleTech.]

The case is actually much more convoluted than you seem to even know.

FASA thought they had a legit copyright license to use the Macross/Dogrum/ect mecha [they bought all the rights from the same "Right holder"]

HG brought the lawsuit against FASA in the 90's because FASA had filed a motion against PLAYMATES over the EXO SQUAD animation series and toyline. See in the early 90's, FASA had begun pitching around ideas for a Cartoon/Toy Line for Battletech... One of the people they pitched to... was Playmates. They showed some of the toy ideas, including that of a Timberwolf/Madcat [which guess what one of the HUGE Exosquad toys looks EXACTLY like]

Playmates held on to the t-wolf concept and ended up using it for ExoSquad... At this same time, Playmates had entered an exclusive agreement to release Robotech/Macross toys with Harmony Gold. When FASA filed motion against Playmates, HG countered with the accusation of FASA using stolen designs for the BattleTech line of products, stating they had exclusive distribution rights of "All humanoid Mecha in the United States."

That got shot down, however the judge ended up conceding that HG did have legal standing in regards to those used in Macross/Robotech.

All information that's been dug up by the CBT forums, has indictated that HG/FASA settled out of court, and struck an agreement that no one would reveal the actuality of what took place.