46 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 25 August 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Of course you do, because FLD is outright better than non-FLD, to the point of being unbalanced. Particularly against light mechs. Which is why so few are piloted (less than 15% right now).

No kidding Khob. I have hated DPS since its inception. I hit you, you take damage now. Can't help it. I am Old and set in my way. And Lights are meant to be fast and fragile It is the natural order of things.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 August 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

throuble is those mechs that can boat them are killers if not taken down quickly and improvements would make the situation worse

I run a combo of uac5 uac10 and 4csl on my b dire and I feel i've had an extremely poor match if I score less than 400 damage, I expect to get around 3 kills and around 700 dam with the build

[Kitane]

FLD damage is a better, but you are still comparing UACs to ACs, they are already balanced by having double tap ability and much better dps.

They need no buffs at all.

[Squally160]

my quad UA/C10 Whale says UA/C's are fine. But Ill gladly accept buffs. MOAR DAKKA

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 25 August 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Sounds like the problem is theres not enough clan mechs that have multiple ballistics slots, rather than the fact UACs are too weak.

No, and that's a silly concept. You shouldn't have to boat 30 tons of Ballistics before they become "good".

For one thing the SMN, the TBR and the WHK can all take 2 and in some cases 3 Ballistics.

Go ahead, try and build those in Smurphy's, see what it gets you.

1) The Summoner barely has enough tonnage to run 2x cUAC 2s, much less 2x cUAC 5s - without shaving massive armor off or having no back up weapons. (Mister Blastman runs a 2x UAC 5 build with lasers, and I have no idea how he does this without running around in his underoos).

2) The Timber Wolf is in the same boat. The mech everyone loves to complain about, including yourself, is limited to 2x UAC 5s or 2x UAC 10s but the 2x UAC 10s ends up with only 2x Mediums for back up. Neither are particularly amazing builds and the Laser/Missile options are better. It has the hardpoints, but it quickly runs out of tonnage - because a lot of the hype about this mech forgets it only has about 28 tons to max 30 tons (extreme armor shaving) of realistic pod space.

3) The Warhawk can run 2x any ballistic it wants...but that's about it. It quickly runs out of crit slots or tonnage and hardpoints to do anything else of value. And now you have 2x UAC 10s on a mech that has 20 DHS. Or you could transfer the same build to a DW and get an additional 20 tons of stuff, and enough hardpoints to boat lasers on top of your boated ballistics.



So maybe the problem is with the Dire Wolf then?

The Mech that got the cERLLAS nerfed.
The Mech that partially got cERPPC nerfed.
The Mech that is the only one that can massively boat cUACs and apparently because of this, cUACs have to be a bad choice for every other clan mech.

Squally160, on 25 August 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

my quad UA/C10 Whale says UA/C's are fine. But Ill gladly accept buffs. MOAR DAKKA

Nice of you to not even read the first post, thanks for stopping by.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 August 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Squally160]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

No, and that's a silly concept. You shouldn't have to boat 30 tons of Ballistics before they become "good".

For one thing the SMN, the TBR and the WHK can all take 2 and in some cases 3 Ballistics.

Go ahead, try and build those in Smurphy's, see what it gets you.

1) The Summoner barely has enough tonnage to run 2x cUAC 2s, much less 2x cUAC 5s - without shaving massive armor off or having no back up weapons. (Mister Blastman runs a 2x UAC 5 build with lasers, and I have no idea how he does this without running around in his underoos).

2) The Timber Wolf is in the same boat. The mech everyone loves to complain about, including yourself, is limited to 2x UAC 5s or 2x UAC 10s but the 2x UAC 10s ends up with only 2x Mediums for back up. Neither are particularly amazing builds and the Laser/Missile options are better. It has the hardpoints, but it quickly runs out of tonnage - because a lot of the hype about this mech forgets it only has about 28 tons to max 30 tons (extreme armor shaving) of realistic pod space.

3) The Warhawk can run 2x any ballistic it wants...but that's about it. It quickly runs out of crit slots or tonnage and hardpoints to do anything else of value. And now you have 2x UAC 10s on a mech that has 20 DHS. Or you could transfer the same build to a DW and get an additional 20 tons of stuff, and enough hardpoints to boat lasers on top of your boated ballistics.



So maybe the problem is with the Dire Wolf then?

The Mech that got the cERLLAS nerfed.
The Mech that partially got cERPPC nerfed.
The Mech that is the only one that can massively boat cUACs and apparently because of this, cUACs have to be a bad choice for every other clan mech.




Nice of you to not even read the first post, thanks for stopping by.

Actually, I agreed with your first post. The only mech that I use them on.. is a boating Whale. thats all they are viable on.

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I say that having scored multiple 1000k damage games with the Boated UAC 5 build.

1000k = 1000000! That's a lot of ammo to produce that amount of damage. How many supply trucks did you bring with you?

[Ultimax]

Mystere, on 25 August 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

1000k = 1000000! That's a lot of ammo to produce that amount of damage. How many supply trucks did you bring with you?

Lol good catch.

Yes, I am the messiah!

[Wild Hamster]

Cos everyone knows real whales boat LBX-5

[ImperialKnight]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'm not here to debate FLD vs. Burst with Clan ACs.

And yet what you're suggesting is frontloading Clan UACs more. faster projectile speed with tighter burst IS increasing the front loaded damage.

I think Clan UACs are fine as they are now

[Ultimax]

knightsljx, on 25 August 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

And yet what you're suggesting is frontloading Clan UACs more. faster projectile speed with tighter burst IS increasing the front loaded damage.

I think Clan UACs are fine as they are now

They still won't be "front loaded" by any stretch of the word.

[El Bandito]

After being on the receiving end of Direwhales boating UACs...I dunno. I am piloting a damn assault mech, but I melted like butter. TTK of those things are so short it is laughable.

Only when I am piloting a Light I feel safe from Clan UACs.

MischiefSC, on 25 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

I am of the opinion that ppfld needs to die in a fire. As such all acs should be burst fire - however I agree completely with op on needing a bit of a speed buff. I would say that IS burst acs need fewer projectiles per burst and even higher speed.

I support this. Let IS ACs have burst also, but with fewer projectiles and shorter burst.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 August 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

After being on the receiving end of Direwhales boating UACs...I dunno. I am piloting a damn assault mech, but I melted like butter. TTK of those things are so short it is laughable.

Having used:

4x UAC 10s
4x UAC 5s + 4cERMLAS
5x UAC 5s

My opinion is that these builds do a lot of damage, but spread it all over the place.

They feel powerful on the receiving end the same way that LRMs do - because of constant cockpit shake.

Sure, two of these side by side will rip people up - but so far Dual Gauss + tons of energy weapons is a lot more deadly, and can just one-shot lights, remove components, etc.


And again, we had cERLLAS nerfed because of 6x and 8x and 4x (+Gauss) cER LLAS Dire Wolves.

We had cERPPC nerfed partially due to 2x Gauss + 2x cERPPC Dire Wolves.

Several posters have commented that UACs boated on Dire Wolves would become more powerful - so perhaps then the problem is .... Dire Wolves?

A mech that can take 8 ballistic slots and 8 energy slots with 50 tons of Podspace?


It's going to be dangerous no matter what it loads, it has both the tonnage and hardpoints to do pretty much anything except massed LRMs (and can still get LRM 30/35).

[Squally160]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Having used:

4x UAC 10s
4x UAC 5s + 4cERMLAS
5x UAC 5s

My opinion is that these builds do a lot of damage, but spread it all over the place.

They feel powerful on the receiving end the same way that LRMs do - because of constant cockpit shake.

Sure, two of these side by side will rip people up - but so far Dual Gauss + tons of energy weapons is a lot more deadly, and can just one-shot lights, remove components, etc.


And again, we had cERLLAS nerfed because of 6x and 8x and 4x (+Gauss) cER LLAS Dire Wolves.

We had cERPPC nerfed partially due to 2x Gauss + 2x cERPPC Dire Wolves.

Several posters have commented that UACs boated on Dire Wolves would become more powerful - so perhaps then the problem is .... Dire Wolves?

A mech that can take 8 ballistic slots and 8 energy slots with 50 tons of Podspace?


It's going to be dangerous no matter what it loads, it has both the tonnage and hardpoints to do pretty much anything except massed LRMs (and can still get LRM 30/35).

I think that is the major issue. boating clan ACs, especially the U's is a massive damage generator (ive had multiple 1500+ games in mine)....

BUT... You go back and look, that damage is all over the place, unless you are fighting a standstill target, and even then, twisting just spreads it more. they are fairly easy to counter weapons, but, like LRMS, have a massive intimidation bonus when you are hit squarely with them.

But, as has been said, if youre after kills or just the ability to piece off components... meh.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 August 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

No kidding Khob. I have hated DPS since its inception. I hit you, you take damage now. Can't help it. I am Old and set in my way. And Lights are meant to be fast and fragile It is the natural order of things.

Adapt and overcome Joe

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Ultimatum X, on 25 August 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Perhaps (projectile speeds in m/s):

• cUAC 2: 2000 > No change
  
• cUAC 5: 1150 > 1400
  
• cUAC 10: 950 > 1200
  
• cUAC 20: 650 > 950

LOL BuffTheOPedClanMechs thread...
It can be done with one condition... IS AC's should have same, mentioned by you, projectile speeds as Clans than.

[MischiefSC]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 25 August 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

LOL BuffTheOPedClanMechs thread...
It can be done with one condition... IS AC's should have same, mentioned by you, projectile speeds as Clans than.

I disagree.

They should be burst fire as well but less shots - and faster.

IS ACs should use the same mechanics but tighter bursts and faster projectiles.

That sound fair?

[MeiSooHaityu]

The only way I would be happy with seeing Clan UA/Cs getting round speed boosts and tighter shot groupings is if ghost heat is added when more than say as an example: 3 UA/C5 or 2 UA/C10s or 20s are fired at once.

Ghost heat sucks, but you can't have the best of both worlds.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 26 August 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

I like the clan UACs far more than the IS ACs. The only ones that can really be used alone are the uac10 and 20 though, the others need a pair to really shine. I also have a LOT better luck in my 4 UAC10 DWF than in my 6 UAC5 or 4 + ERMLs builds.

Honestly i think clan uacs are great where they are because any buffs to them could be really dangerous. I do wish lbx acs get a buff though... pretty much inferior in every way to ultras since they can't double tap AND require more crits. I can do really good with them in pairs on my TBR in pretty much any combo of 5s and 10s with laser support. Also if you forego JJs you can do 2 UAC10s 4 ERMLs with i think 4 tons of ammo

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 26 August 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[EvilCow]

I would like to make projectile speed proportional to damage for both IS and Clan and for all classes.

The 5 bullets of an CUAC20 should have about the same speed of an IS AC5.

LBX weapons should all have the same speed because all projectiles are 1 point, giving them a very fast blast would help balance them compared to UACs and ACs, would also make LBXes useful-ish at range.

All things considered there are a finite number of projectiles:
1pt - xLBX, CAC2, CUAC2 (fastest).
1.66pt - CAC5, CUAC5.
2pt - AC2, UAC2,
2.5pt - CAC10, CUAC10.
4pt - CAC20, CUAC20.
5pt - AC5, UAC5.
10pt - AC10.
20pt - AC20 (slowest).

Now assign them a speed proportional to the damage in a range from 1pt (max) to 20pt (min). Burst length can be tweaked as a balance parameter in the IS vs Clan differentiation.