35 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

As much as I like to talk smack about Paul's infamous "3 Second Jenner", he does have a point. Pin-point, front loaded damage is significant problem, when it comes to balance in MWO. Fact is a lot of time, effort, and emotion has been expended in an effort to address and balance the fact that all shots in MWO are "called shots".

This is why Armor values are doubled relative to table-top.

Ghost heat was added in to curb the dominance of Quad-PPC and Hexa-LL Stalkers

The charge mechanic was added to the Gauss rifle in an attempt to address "the problem" of Gauss-PPC Highlanders. (Obviously it wasn't enough because later we got the recent PPC and Jump Jet nerfs)

This is why the CERLL's burn time is now 2 seconds.

All of the balance decisions have been controversial and none of them have adressed the core problem. Chances are that If a mech has a 75 damage alpha strike chances are all 75 points of that strike are going to a single location.

So rather than continuing to Nerf each weapon in turn till we are reduced to trying to cut down an Atlas with a herring, lets add a new mechanic. Now one of MWO bills itself as "the thinking man's shooter" and my first experience with a game that really fit that billing was the original Rainbow 6 back in '98. One off the then innovative things about Rainbow6 was the ability to switch between semi and full auto and how firing weapons on full-auto reduced accuracy. This was portrayed by a reticle that became wider as you moved and fired, representing the increasingly random point of impact of each successive shot. This mechanic has since been copied by many other FPSs from CounterStrike onward and I think something similar should be brought into MWO.

Now I understand that there is a contingent of this community that is vehemently against any randomness that might get in the way of "pure skill" but frankly I suspect that these are the same people who were/are running the meta builds that I listed above.

There is another contingent that says that in most other Shooters you aren't in a giant war machine with targeting computers to help compensate. They have point but overlook the existence of "to-hit" penalties in TT.

I suggest the following:

Add a scaled deviation for all weapons on a mech.

The HUD reticle should grow and shrink with the scale of the deviation so as to ensure that shots always land inside it.

The scale of the deviation will should determined primarily by heat scale. (Running hot is rough on the gyros and targeting computers) In practical gaming terms this would allow PPCs and CERLLs to be buffed back into being effective weapons while still keeping snipers in check by lengthening the time between their shots. (If you want to nail someone from across the map you can but you'll need to wait for your mech to cool down between shots)

Other actions should add Bonuses or penalties to the above deviation.
Standing still and zooming in? Bonus
Jumping or taking a critical hit to your Gyro? Penalty

Weapon deviation would also give a purpose to some currently unused skills/modules. At the moment Arm Reflex and Pinpoint are useless to mechs without arm actuators or am-mounted weapons.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 24 August 2014 - 02:36 AM.

[CocoaJin]

Cross hair bloom, dispersion and limited weapon convergence are the simplest way to balance weapons. MechWarriors used their skills to land shots in spite of their weapons platforms deficiencies at delivering pin point accuracy. This mechanic is is wholly within the spirit of BT mech combat.

I truly hope Paul recognizes this and is in the process of building such a mechanic for future release. I don't believe the "skill" camp has the same support against this mechanic that it held during beta. I think the playing public can easily see the need for such a mechanic...I won't say I told you so.



Oh thanks beard guy...yeah I guess you can say it for me.

[The Massive]

I definitely think accuracy should drop with things like speed, heat, jumping, recoil etc. Dynamic crosshairs would appear to be the simplest solution.

But I'm not a programmer. So wtf would I know.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've been a proponent of Dynamic Precision Reduction for a very long time, now.

Heat % should impose DPR. Throttle % should impose DPR. Lower Stability State should impose DPR.

Why %s? Raw values punish faster mechs, or mechs with larger heat capacity. Percentages automatically balance themselves.

What is Stability State? Triggering JJs, being off the ground, receiving impulse, colliding with obstacles and other mechs, etc., should all impose some DPR.

How would DPR work? Every source would impose a small amount (scaling by both type and degree, so heat gives more generally, and hotter gives more than cooler). Once you get some DPR your shots deviate a set distance around your aim point (precision reduction, not accuracy reduction). DPR would decay at a set rate, once the source is reduced or removed.

Implementing DPR would also allow PGI to replace some of the redundant or non-functional pilot efficiencies, instead giving accelerated DPR decay or reduced DPR receipt.

[Faktopus Osis]

For the love of all that is holy, yes.

In any Battletech/Mechwarrior novel, the way 'Mech combat is written is not "and then, Kerensky pitted the cockpit of a catapult from 1000 meters with her gauss rifles." No way, it's much more gritty, much more skin-of-your-teeth style reflex and compensation for the mech's inability to do much more than keep its balance.

Mechs taking hits to their internal CT SHOULD be falling over if the gyro is crit, they SHOULD be suffering huge accuracy penalties for moving at anything over 50% throttle. Running at top speed and delivering accurate fire is only something I've seen out of a legionnaire, which is literally a 50 ton gun platform in which every system is slaved to the mech's ONE weapon. (granted, that weapon is an RAC-5, or 6 standard ac-5s)

Make mechs slow down to shoot, make people think about heat, speed, and cover. THAT is what Mechwarrior is, not pinning the throttle to full and delivering accurate 700m shots with ppcs and gauss. NO weapons platform IN THE MECHWARRIOR/BATTLETECH UNIVERSE is capable of firing with that accuracy.

Calling current accuracy a 0 point - that accuracy should only be achievable when you're standing still at idle heat. THE END. A spider running at 150kph applying full erll burns exactly where they're aiming is not going to happen.

Also, I have yet to see any kind of movement from the cockpit of the mech. In 3rd person, the mech is bouncing a solid meter or two up and down with every step. Inside the mech, the pilot may move a tenth of that, and it's not even the pilot, it's the cockpit geometry around him. GET SOME HEAD BOB, PGI. move the reticle with each step, the mech is not a modern main battle tank like the m1a2 abrams, it takes steps, sways, bounces, and needs time to compensate for these things.

Running and jumping in a medium at 100kph, flying through the air, launching salvos of missiles, taking autocannon fire. . . it should not be this damn smooth.

[Loganauer]

Yes, cone of fire spread, and it can be improved by a "gunnery" skill tree, targeting computers, and weapon modules.

Edited by Loganauer, 25 August 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[Artifact]

Even assuming that compensation systems get so advanced in the future
that relative motion, recoil, etc, is always compensated for, there is literally no way to know what the wind is doing between you and your target with 100% accuracy, what rising thermals are where (this would affect lasers), and the mechanical limits of accuracy when human beings are involved.

I've advocated for this very system in the past. PGI needs to admit they failed with the current balance, adopt this or a similar system, and remove all the crap like guass rifle chargeup times that only last for a few seconds, ghost heat, etc.

Oh,and as to the 'skill' contingent which will certainly decry this as heresy? It still takes the same level of skill to adjust your fire to hit a Spider moving at 150kph in and out of cover at 1000 meters. You just won't always explode it in one PPC/GR salvo anymore.

The 'skill contingent' are the voices that PGI used to justify the ******** system that we have today.

Edited by Artifact, 25 August 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[TibsVT]

So long as it's not blown entirely out of proportion you get a big yes from me. My only concern is the relatively hot Clan runs that may suffer if this is taken too far. For example when I run a Warhawk Prime (4xCERPPC, 1xCLRM-10) I am consistently on the heat threshhold and that is an out-of-the-box config.

That in mind perhaps the bloom could be lessened depending on the actuators (the aforementioned Warhawk for example does not have LA actuators).

Edited by KelesK, 25 August 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Artifact]

You've just hit on a selling point -- inherent balance between clans and IS without resorting to silliness. Want to counteract it? Great!! Put on fewer weapons and equip a TC.

Maybe we'd even see some Tho-D's running around. I still miss that mech. Simply non-competitive in this game.

[DeathlyEyes]

Increase armor values to increase TTK. That way big alpha's can't 1 or 2 shot mechs. This will encourage high DPS mechs that don't overheat after firing twice.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

DeathlyEyes, on 25 August 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Increase armor values to increase TTK. That way big alpha's can't 1 or 2 shot mechs. This will encourage high DPS mechs that don't overheat after firing twice.

Increasing armor values is a messy solution. Do you do it by %? That screws over lights and mediums. Do you do it by absolute values? That screws over heavies and assaults. Doubling should be sufficient, but with no limit to the concentration of damage on a single hitbox and with drastic rate of fire increases relative to TT it has only mitigated the TtK problem, not solved it.

DPR would increase the skill threshold significantly, since you'd have to manage your throttle, your heat, and your stability state in order to maximize your damage concentration. Putting each variable firmly in the control of the pilot means the overall skill cap goes up.

[TibsVT]

DeathlyEyes, on 25 August 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Increase armor values to increase TTK. That way big alpha's can't 1 or 2 shot mechs. This will encourage high DPS mechs that don't overheat after firing twice.

That is a bandaid solution at best. At least what the OP has suggested allows a more permanent way to solve the problem without forever raising armour values each time a new alpha build becomes mainstream.

[Loganauer]

Artifact, on 25 August 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

You've just hit on a selling point -- inherent balance between clans and IS without resorting to silliness. Want to counteract it? Great!! Put on fewer weapons and equip a TC.

Maybe we'd even see some Tho-D's running around. I still miss that mech. Simply non-competitive in this game.

The only way to balance IS and Clans is 10 v 12 and battlevalue for mixed matches. I don't see how this does anything to effect clans anymore than IS at all anyway

Edited by Loganauer, 25 August 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

KelesK, on 25 August 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

That is a bandaid solution at best. At least what the OP has suggested allows a more permanent way to solve the problem without forever raising armour values each time a new alpha build becomes mainstream.

It's not a bandaid. What he suggests does the exact same thing with an element of randomness. It also makes worse the problem that certain chassis are inherently better. Mech's with weapons in certain spots already have huge advantages without convergence. This will just make that even worse.

Edited by DeathlyEyes, 25 August 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[TibsVT]

DeathlyEyes, on 25 August 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

It's not a bandaid. What he suggests does the exact same thing with an element of randomness. It also makes worse the problem that certain chassis are inherently better. Mech's with weapons in certain spots already have huge advantages without convergence. This will just make that even worse.

What the OP suggested effects all weapons regardless of hardpoint location, so how did you come to that conclusion?

[Nightmare1]

Bad idea. The raw shooting mechanic itself works well as it is. The last thing we need is for PGI to start tinkering with it and introducing bugs.

Furthermore, the weapon systems were more accurate in the books. Pilots had targeting computers that could lock portions of a Mech and fire into that particular spot. Pulse Lasers are an excellent example. In between each pulse, the computer would make micro-adjustments so that each successive pulse would strike close to or on top of its predecessor(s).

There have been other threads addressing this issue as well, so this one is redundant anyways.

Additional note: This would greatly hinder the already severely nerfed Light Mechs. It would mostly hurt ballistics as well, with beam being fairly unaffected (no recoil to compensate) and missiles (lock-ons) not feeling it. In essence, it would nerf ballistics and fast-moving Mechs while slow moving beam and LRM boats would be unaffected.

Bad idea.

[Artifact]

Nightmare1, on 25 August 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Bad idea. The raw shooting mechanic itself works well as it is. The last thing we need is for PGI to start tinkering with it and introducing bugs.

Furthermore, the weapon systems were more accurate in the books. Pilots had targeting computers that could lock portions of a Mech and fire into that particular spot. Pulse Lasers are an excellent example. In between each pulse, the computer would make micro-adjustments so that each successive pulse would strike close to or on top of its predecessor(s).

There have been other threads addressing this issue as well, so this one is redundant anyways.

Additional note: This would greatly hinder the already severely nerfed Light Mechs. It would mostly hurt ballistics as well, with beam being fairly unaffected (no recoil to compensate) and missiles (lock-ons) not feeling it. In essence, it would nerf ballistics and fast-moving Mechs while slow moving beam and LRM boats would be unaffected.

Bad idea.

So, basically, you're in the 'skill' camp. Also, your beam weapon point isn't a point at all -- beam weapons already suffer from a de facto system that does the same thing, since keeping a laser on one location is pretty much impossible when the person you are shooting has a clue.

And sitting there saying that 'oh, we might have new bugs' is about a lame as argument as I've ever seen. There will always be bugs with every new system. As it stands now, we're not even playing anything like battletech/mechwarrior anymore.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Nightmare1, on 25 August 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Additional note: This would greatly hinder the already severely nerfed Light Mechs. It would mostly hurt ballistics as well, with beam being fairly unaffected (no recoil to compensate) and missiles (lock-ons) not feeling it. In essence, it would nerf ballistics and fast-moving Mechs while slow moving beam and LRM boats would be unaffected.

Bad idea.

I don't see it.

1 - Ballistics would actually impose DPR on the enemy (they impart impulse). They'd also generate less heat, reducing or even eliminating one of the factors (really, what should be the biggest one) that imposes DPR in the first place. Lasers and PPCs would be the big losers from the heat standpoint, but mostly if boated and fired in excess.

2 - Lights would only be severely nerfed if the penalty for movement were too extreme. Most high speed light engagements happen pretty close; sniper lights tend to move far more slowly when firing. DPR from movement alone should not be enough to make fast light drive-by tactics untenable. If anything, it should make their biggest predators less effective (high damage PPFLD boats would have to slow way down and keep cool to be able to continue one-shotting legs and such, and fast mediums would suffer just as much from DPR as lights would).

As for missiles, DPR could be adapted to pattern spread pretty easily.

[TibsVT]

Nightmare1, on 25 August 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Bad idea. The raw shooting mechanic itself works well as it is. The last thing we need is for PGI to start tinkering with it and introducing bugs.

Furthermore, the weapon systems were more accurate in the books. Pilots had targeting computers that could lock portions of a Mech and fire into that particular spot. Pulse Lasers are an excellent example. In between each pulse, the computer would make micro-adjustments so that each successive pulse would strike close to or on top of its predecessor(s).

There have been other threads addressing this issue as well, so this one is redundant anyways.

Additional note: This would greatly hinder the already severely nerfed Light Mechs. It would mostly hurt ballistics as well, with beam being fairly unaffected (no recoil to compensate) and missiles (lock-ons) not feeling it. In essence, it would nerf ballistics and fast-moving Mechs while slow moving beam and LRM boats would be unaffected.

Bad idea.

There is little that can be done about LRM boats short of changing the LRMs again. Also if you bothered to read rather than skim it was clearly noted that speed would be a secondary (and blatantly minute and negligable) factor - heat would be what primarily causes accuracy to degrade.

Edited by KelesK, 25 August 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[Nightmare1]

When I see PGI fix the gameplay issues that already exist, like the clipping on maps, desyncs, weapon bugs, etc, then I might be open to new methods of firing weapons for now though, there are too many irons in the fire for me to have confidence in PGI's ability to implement a workable system such as this.

Regarding the "We're not playing MechWarrior anymore comment," the mechanics in MW4 were quite similar. You simply had to point and shoot - there was no variation. I don't see a need to deviate from that precedent.

KelesK, on 25 August 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

There is little that can be done about LRM boats short of changing the LRMs again. Also if you bothered to read rather than skim it was clearly noted that speed would be a secondary factor - heat would be what primarily causes accuracy to degrade.

Great, more heat nerfs.

My HBK-4P is appalled.