166 replies to this topic

[Doctor Proctor]

Bromineberry, on 28 August 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

I somehow hate the AC10. It's such a fragile weapon. It gets destroyed exactly the moment, you loose your armour. The AC20 is much more durable, it simply has more "hp/crit".

Reading this thread has surprised me a lot. I never thought, that I run relatively hot mechs. On most builds that are posted, I'd get rid of heatsink for more weapons/bigger engine.

Well, that's why the Grid Iron/4G (same build, just the Grid Iron gets me bonus CBills and supports Da Bears!) is higher than the 4H. I mean, I could run another AC/20 + 3xML Hunchback in the 4H, but what's the point? Honestly though, what I always wanted for that mech was for the stupid LBX-10 to actually work. That's what I started running in that, and it can be brutally effective up close...but that's about it. It's inability to put even half it's damage on target severely hampers it's effectiveness. An AC/5 is too much tonnage for too little damage IMO, and it doesn't have the hardpoints and lack of hunch that the 4J has in order to run it as a laser boat.

Now I'm making it sound like I don' like it though... Honestly, it's a solid enough mech, but it just can't specialize well. 4P and 4J are better laser mechs, and the 4G is a better ballistic mech. If the heat on ML's came down, then I could run an AC/10 + 5xML build that would have more punch. Or if the LBX-10 somehow got turned into an effective weapon then I could run with that and use the extra tonnage for an additional heat sink or ML as well. Or if it had two ballistic slots instead of just one... Basically, I like it more for nostalgia for when I ran it all the time back when I had like 5 mechs, but it really needs just a little something to make it shine again.

[Bishop Steiner]

Doctor Proctor, on 28 August 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

For maximum Wub, this is the build that I use: BJ-1X

It has a few points less on it's alpha, but the ML's have longer range than either the SPL's or the MPL's, making it so that I don't have to get quite as close to unleash maximum damage. Mainly though, I just like this build because it has a 45% cooling efficiency versus 32%. Since I'm mainly using the MPL's the extra cooling allows me to fire longer, eventually switching to chain fire mode when I run really hot.

While yes, a BJ can't stand toe to toe with larger mechs and works better as a strike mech, this extra cooling capacity really comes in handy later in a match when enemies are more distracted and there are open locations that the MPL's can just slice off. It's also surprisingly good at dealing with Light mechs due to the more pinpoint nature of the MPL's. I basically just keep pace and hold down chain fire to continually pump damage into them while either running them off or eventually legging them to leave them open for an alpha.

and the thing about the higher heat efficiencies...yeah, the BJ is a striker, but when the enemy lights catch you, you need to have the ability to fire, a LOT of volume, usually, as you have no knockout punch weapons, like the BJ-1 usually does. Too many "striker" mechs I have seen die, because they overheated while trying to fight off a Light and their magic hit boxes.

[Doctor Proctor]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

and the thing about the higher heat efficiencies...yeah, the BJ is a striker, but when the enemy lights catch you, you need to have the ability to fire, a LOT of volume, usually, as you have no knockout punch weapons, like the BJ-1 usually does. Too many "striker" mechs I have seen die, because they overheated while trying to fight off a Light and their magic hit boxes.

Exactly. That extra 10% can mean the difference between shutting down or finally legging that Light and getting around behind him to cool off before you alpha his backside. Also, 4xMPL on chain fire is surprisingly effective since the cumulative cycle time of all of them plus chain fire delay (4x0.6s burn time + 3x0.5s chain fire delay = 3.9s) is only slightly slower than their normal refresh rate + burn time (3.0s + 0.6s = 3.6s). This basically means that you can keep up a near constant laser stream to track your target and that when the 4th laser is finished firing the first one is off cooldown only 0.3 seconds later and is ready to go.

Now I know that big alphas are sexy and everyone loves them, and the BJ-1X can put those out as well (34 damage, especially when 24 of it is pretty short duration and will tend to be focused on a single component, is not too shabby for a Medium), but against Lights I've found that focused DPS tends to work better. Between their relatively small hitboxes, high speed, and ability to twist and turn very suddenly, it's easy to just completely whiff an alpha. I'd just rather 18 points of damage hit than 34 damage miss. Not to mention that it often scares them off since they're continually getting damage warnings and glowing components on their ragdolls. After a few seconds of that, most of them will run off and leave me alone, or allow me the time to line up a nice alpha on their back because they underestimate my ability to keep up with them.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I like the...

Shadow Hawk(P) (5M i think??): 3 A/C2s and 3 SRM2s, JJs...Just fun, C-Bill boost too.
Shadow Hawk 2D2: 2 LLasers, 1 A/C2, 4 SSRM2s...Great at range and discourages lights with streaks.
Hunchback(F) 4G: 1 A/C20, 2 MLasers, 2 MGs...Medium+Speed+A/C20=Fun, C-Bill boost to boot
Hunchback 4P: 9 MLasers...Come On, 9 MLasers...gotta love that (even with ghost heat). Just a fun short~medium range build
Centurion (C) (designation???): 1 A/C5, 3 SRM4s, 2 MLasers...Fun mech I play on occasions

[Marauder3D]

Speaking of the proposed changes on the test server, my very hot 4 ERML 1 LBX20 Stormcrow is about to get a bit hotter!

[Bishop Steiner]

Marauder3D, on 28 August 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

Speaking of the proposed changes on the test server, my very hot 4 ERML 1 LBX20 Stormcrow is about to get a bit hotter!

yeah...... a whole lot of my builds just got.... alot less...good. My TWolves and such, fine. They need it. But My Summoner doesn't need the pain, lol.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I know the Stormcorw will make my top 5 list once I play it. That mech just looks like a ton of Medium fun goodness.

Maybe there is a place for the Nova too once I get one...eventually.

[Corbon Zackery]

Mental note: (Shoot for the Legs!) Watch the mech blow up in a pretty display of fireworks.

Ammo explodes! and your legs that you need to walk have no CASE protection.

Properly balancing ammo per match is a key to victory some of these builds are about 4 tons light due excessive stockpiles of ammo. That's 4 m.lasers you didn't have.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 28 August 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Apnu]

HBK-4G(F) -- many memories in this. As an Elite Founder, for a while, this was my only c-bill grinder. I ran it originally with 2xAC5s and 3xMLs in early CB. Never got the hang of it. Then I put in the AC20, ES, FF, STD 250 and wow, it took off from there. I was one of the early BFG-build adopters in CB. Everybody poo-poo'd the HBK-4G as the "weakest" Founders choice. I set out to prove them wrong. I call mine "lil mugger"

HBK-4J -- 2xLRM10+A, 4xMLs, TAG. A fun little mini-LRM boat. I've driven this config before the LRMaggedon "head-shots from the sky" era, through that, into "LRMs suck ass", to LRMs tweaked but still suck, to now the "LRMs are pretty good because PPCs suck" iteration.

HBK-4P - 8xMLs. I ran the 4P, stock, on the TT for a good while and loved it. Its fun here too after a few tweaks.

SHD-2H(P) -- LB10, 3xSSRM2, ML. This is a fun light hunter. The torso LB10 lasts way longer than any HBK, its fast and jumps.

WVR-6R -- Same as above SHD-2H. Difference is the LB10 is in the arm, which makes it pretty fragile, but you can get surgical with it on a fully articulated arm. Oh the legs I've taken off spiders with this thing... So many... I lost count.

(on edit, spelling error)

Edited by Apnu, 28 August 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

Corbon Zackery, on 28 August 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Mental note: (Shoot for the Legs!) Watch the mech blow up in a pretty display of fireworks.

Ammo explodes! and your legs that you need to walk have no CASE protection.

Properly balancing ammo per match is a key to victory some of these builds are about 4 tons light due excessive stockpiles of ammo. That's 4 m.lasers you didn't have.

Ammo explosions have a 10% chance of happening IF there is a crit on the ammo. I have 439 matches between my HBK-4G and my GRID-IRON. In all of that time, I think I've had the ammo in my legs explode once. So, if 1/439 is my chance of an ammo explosion, practically speaking, why would I ever waste tonnage on something like CASE?

Edit: I should also say that it was once that it actually killed me and said ammo explosion was the cause of death. If it happened other times, then it apparently didn't do enough damage to really hurt my ST and CT. Which, again, just shows why ammo explosions are a non-threat.

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 28 August 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[Apnu]

Doctor Proctor, on 28 August 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ammo explosions have a 10% chance of happening IF there is a crit on the ammo. I have 439 matches between my HBK-4G and my GRID-IRON. In all of that time, I think I've had the ammo in my legs explode once. So, if 1/439 is my chance of an ammo explosion, practically speaking, why would I ever waste tonnage on something like CASE?

Edit: I should also say that it was once that it actually killed me and said ammo explosion was the cause of death. If it happened other times, then it apparently didn't do enough damage to really hurt my ST and CT. Which, again, just shows why ammo explosions are a non-threat.

They should be. If you have 3 AC20 rounds left in the bin and it pops, you should take 60 pts of internal structure damage, which would most mechs, even if the damage started in the leg and transfered inward like the TT.

Imagine if the bin that hit was MG ammo and there was say 900 rounds left in it. POPCORN!

[Doctor Proctor]

Apnu, on 28 August 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

They should be. If you have 3 AC20 rounds left in the bin and it pops, you should take 60 pts of internal structure damage, which would most mechs, even if the damage started in the leg and transfered inward like the TT.

Imagine if the bin that hit was MG ammo and there was say 900 rounds left in it. POPCORN!

An AC/20 round does 20 points of damage because the expanding gas is confined to a narrow tube and is 100% put into propelling the shell forward at high velocity (unless it use some sort of gas cycling system to chamber the next round, but even then it's like 95%). Exploding ammunition in a magazine is under no such constraints, and will simply explode out equally in all direction, which while it sounds worse actually results in a smaller explosion. So really, 3 AC/20 rounds shouldn't be doing 60 damage at all.

Now, I don't remember the actual formula that this game uses to calculate ammo explosion damage, but it usually doesn't seem to be enough to outright kill you unless you either have multiple tons of ammo in the component, or it's closer to the CT, or you're running an XL engine. The damage does spread through IS as far as I know, going from leg to ST to CT if necessary. Otherwise, an ammo explosion would NEVER be lethal unless it happened in the CT or ST with XL engine.

[ToxinTractor]

From what ive ridden in lately its been:

1. The Hunchback 4G; good old classic AC20 with med laser combo on a reliable comftrable chassis that can torso twist like a champ. When you are on the defensive you can really make use of the twist to fire off a AC20 round or two as you run. Just a matter of learning the damn weapon.

2. Blackjack 1 and arrow; Once I started playing around with the lighter mechs I couldnt help but get wood at the thought of the black jack. So i tinkered. the "prime" (BJ1) load out was kinda cool and got me thinking. Long range fire support.. just with out the heavy weight and crappy heat of the AC2s. So in the end I strapped two ERLLs on there with some meds, JJs and MGs (for funnys). And honestly its given me some great games. As for the arrow. Holy crap its a mini buzz saw!

3. Cicada; Really cute adorble little mech that can run fast and pack a nice punch. You can really do just about any size of laser on it to good effect. Ive tried med lasers, med pulse, large pulse and LL builds and all feel really cozy. Heck I have even sinned and slowed the cicada down to mount "larger" weapons and heat sinks into it.

4. Vindicator; since this mech JUST came out ive only been able to look at it on paper. But honestly it looks as though it might become a favorite of mine really fast. Really nice quirks(And a sexy PPC arm), respectable engine sizes combined with a nice array of hard points makes this mech one of my up coming favorites.

5. Centurion/wolverine; having owned a cent and been tinkering with the wolverine I cant really tell which I like more. Both have there ups and downs but each also have some really handy setups. The only draw back is that both of them rely on there "fist" a lot. (Unless you run zombie cents). Hell id also just consider this slot ALSO tied with the treb. Gotta love long range missile support on a mobile chassis.

Edited by ToxinTractor, 28 August 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Apnu]

Doctor Proctor, on 28 August 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

An AC/20 round does 20 points of damage because the expanding gas is confined to a narrow tube and is 100% put into propelling the shell forward at high velocity (unless it use some sort of gas cycling system to chamber the next round, but even then it's like 95%). Exploding ammunition in a magazine is under no such constraints, and will simply explode out equally in all direction, which while it sounds worse actually results in a smaller explosion. So really, 3 AC/20 rounds shouldn't be doing 60 damage at all.

Yeah that's the real world, this is sci-fi. On the TT, if there's an ammo explosion, all the remaining ammo damage is done to the mech.

Quote

Now, I don't remember the actual formula that this game uses to calculate ammo explosion damage, but it usually doesn't seem to be enough to outright kill you unless you either have multiple tons of ammo in the component, or it's closer to the CT, or you're running an XL engine. The damage does spread through IS as far as I know, going from leg to ST to CT if necessary. Otherwise, an ammo explosion would NEVER be lethal unless it happened in the CT or ST with XL engine.

The formula was simple. The mech takes auto hits for all the remaining ammo in that location. Hence, 3 AC20 rounds left = 60 internal damage. In the game there was a damage transfer diagram. So once the IS for a leg it out, additional damage transferred to the torso, but outside armor first, then internal structure. Once the torso was out, additional damage went to the CT outside armor then internal structure. Once the CT was out, (provided you managed to avoid getting 3 engine hits in the process) your mech was done.

Basically it was like shooting yourself whenever ammo cooked off. AMS too, was treated like MG ammo.

So yes, its very hard to die from a ammo hit in the leg with 3 AC20 rounds of ammo explosion, it all depends on how much armor is left on the front side torso and how much IS remains in the torso location. Its one of the weird BT rules that makes no logical sense.

The player could also choose which ammo bin was being spent when the weapon fired. We don't have that control in MWO. You could also spend a round, standing still, dumping your ammo. Handy when you lose said AC20, but are still toting around 1.5 tons of ammo.

As for "dying" from it... Perhaps not from the AC20, unless you have an Inner Sphere XL engine. Because you have to roll crits, so its possible to crit out the XL engine in the torso, or if you lose all the IS in that torso, it automatically falls off and that's automatically 3 engine hits. 3 Engine hits in BT, means your engine is gone and your mech is done. But really it depends on the mech and its armor. A HBK-4G was far less likely to survive 60 pts of damage than say an Atlas.

But in my 900 rounds of MG ammo example, the mech is dead no matter what. No mech has enough armor and internal structure points, on the damage transfer diagram, to survive 900 pts of damage. Same true for a full hopper of LRM ammo. Few mechs could withstand 180 pts of damage starting from the leg.

CASE, mitigated this. So when a mech took a ammo crit to a CASE protected location, all the normal internal structure damage to that location happened, and the left over damage "blew out" But if the ammo bin was in a torso with CASE and if the mech had an IS XL engine, it still took 3 engine hits due to the torso falling off and the mech was done.

[Y E O N N E]

Doctor Proctor, on 28 August 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Exactly. That extra 10% can mean the difference between shutting down or finally legging that Light and getting around behind him to cool off before you alpha his backside. Also, 4xMPL on chain fire is surprisingly effective since the cumulative cycle time of all of them plus chain fire delay (4x0.6s burn time + 3x0.5s chain fire delay = 3.9s) is only slightly slower than their normal refresh rate + burn time (3.0s + 0.6s = 3.6s). This basically means that you can keep up a near constant laser stream to track your target and that when the 4th laser is finished firing the first one is off cooldown only 0.3 seconds later and is ready to go.

Now I know that big alphas are sexy and everyone loves them, and the BJ-1X can put those out as well (34 damage, especially when 24 of it is pretty short duration and will tend to be focused on a single component, is not too shabby for a Medium), but against Lights I've found that focused DPS tends to work better. Between their relatively small hitboxes, high speed, and ability to twist and turn very suddenly, it's easy to just completely whiff an alpha. I'd just rather 18 points of damage hit than 34 damage miss. Not to mention that it often scares them off since they're continually getting damage warnings and glowing components on their ragdolls. After a few seconds of that, most of them will run off and leave me alone, or allow me the time to line up a nice alpha on their back because they underestimate my ability to keep up with them.

I have absolutely no trouble fighting lights of any kind in my BJ-1X, and it is packing neither the more FLD pulse lasers nor an XL for extra heatsinks. In fact, they usually run away from me. Fire three at a time, use the small lasers when near cap to cool off, and generally just manage your heat. Holding the beam on a component isn't really that hard, either.

Benefits of having only 30-40 ping, I guess.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 August 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[Inflatable Fish]

1. Vindicator (1SIB) - my all time favourite from the tabletop, its rendition in MWO makes me weep with joy.
2. Good Ol' Hunchbro (4G/GI) - the swagger, the beefiness, the amazing spectrum of variants and playstyles.
3. Shadowhawk (2H) - the reason it handles like a dump truck is that it's secretly an Autobot and can transform into one. also the only mech that can make a single AC/5 look badass.
4. Blackjack (A) - for those days when you can't decide whether you want to run an AC/20 or a pissload of MGs, this fella can do either!
5. Wolverine (6R) - for being the ugliest mofo on the field, and shooting lazors out its chin.

Edited by Inflatable Fish, 29 August 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Shadowhawk 5M:
SHD-5M

Its an agile sniper, take a few pot shots at some juicy clan CTs and reposition. I obviously run it with Advanced Zoom and an Airstrike.

Shadowhawk 2K:
SHD-2K

I use the 2K to give a lot of the heavier mechs a bloody nose, been thinking lately of using a LL or ELL instead of the LPL.

Cicada 2A(C):
Aside from the basic upgrades I hardly change it loadout at all. 6MLs with elited skills, in the hands of a good pilot, this thing can cause some serious damage.

Blackjack Arrow:
ARROW

Also almost stock, except I downgraded the engine to a STD 225, and I use MPLs instead of MLs. I share this loadout with Yeonne Greene. We've done nightmarish amounts of damage in this thing. Sprint past an enemies blind spot and do figure-eights behind them chewing them to pieces.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 29 August 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Clobba]

1: CN9-D 375XL 133km/h fun, only 2 MPL and 2 x ASRM4 but it goes ok....and did I mention 133km

2: KTO-18 fun brawler if it isn't main target hurts em bad, ERL ML ASRM16 SSRM4

3: CDA-3M a more thoughtful ranged med that I enjoy as a change to mybrawlers
4: HBK-SP another brawler with nice SRM placement up high & a balanced hardpoin layout tha lets you keep impacting even wit 1 side gone

5: Still not sure out of the SHD-2D2, Nova and VND-1AA

[Bishop Steiner]

Apnu, on 28 August 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yeah that's the real world, this is sci-fi. On the TT, if there's an ammo explosion, all the remaining ammo damage is done to the mech.



The formula was simple. The mech takes auto hits for all the remaining ammo in that location. Hence, 3 AC20 rounds left = 60 internal damage. In the game there was a damage transfer diagram. So once the IS for a leg it out, additional damage transferred to the torso, but outside armor first, then internal structure. Once the torso was out, additional damage went to the CT outside armor then internal structure. Once the CT was out, (provided you managed to avoid getting 3 engine hits in the process) your mech was done.

Basically it was like shooting yourself whenever ammo cooked off. AMS too, was treated like MG ammo.

So yes, its very hard to die from a ammo hit in the leg with 3 AC20 rounds of ammo explosion, it all depends on how much armor is left on the front side torso and how much IS remains in the torso location. Its one of the weird BT rules that makes no logical sense.

The player could also choose which ammo bin was being spent when the weapon fired. We don't have that control in MWO. You could also spend a round, standing still, dumping your ammo. Handy when you lose said AC20, but are still toting around 1.5 tons of ammo.

As for "dying" from it... Perhaps not from the AC20, unless you have an Inner Sphere XL engine. Because you have to roll crits, so its possible to crit out the XL engine in the torso, or if you lose all the IS in that torso, it automatically falls off and that's automatically 3 engine hits. 3 Engine hits in BT, means your engine is gone and your mech is done. But really it depends on the mech and its armor. A HBK-4G was far less likely to survive 60 pts of damage than say an Atlas.

But in my 900 rounds of MG ammo example, the mech is dead no matter what. No mech has enough armor and internal structure points, on the damage transfer diagram, to survive 900 pts of damage. Same true for a full hopper of LRM ammo. Few mechs could withstand 180 pts of damage starting from the leg.

CASE, mitigated this. So when a mech took a ammo crit to a CASE protected location, all the normal internal structure damage to that location happened, and the left over damage "blew out" But if the ammo bin was in a torso with CASE and if the mech had an IS XL engine, it still took 3 engine hits due to the torso falling off and the mech was done.

You forget though, that for every portion it transfers, the remaining damage is HALVED.

[Zordicron]

Top 5 you say, hmm. Well I am not going to put these in any order, as I enjoy(ed) pretty much all the mediums which is nice as I can not say the same for lights, or even assaults.

Shawk, 2D2. I run LBX, ML in arms, 4x LRM5, and I dunno XL engine and some JJ. I play it in close/mid range, like 300M, maybe a little farther out at first. LRM are effective at 300M, much more so then out at 800M. LOS makes a big diff, and the screen shake from the 5's on chain fire makes brawling the foe with the LBX and ML easy. Late match, LBX is a real killer on beat up foes. I liked the other 2 pheonix Shawks also, but I think I like the 2D2 the best because the versatility of the 4 missile points.

Griffin. Eh not going to pick a variant, I loaded them all differently. I love the agility of these things, and for me anyway, they seem to go more under the radar then a shawk or wolverine, or even a HBK. I have one variant I put 2 PPC and 2 ML in rtight arm, and thats it, all the weapons in the arm pod. Only lost it 2 times in many matches, agility FTW. PLus, it is the most sexy medium, inside and out, DAT cockpit.

Cicada, 3C is my fav, but X5 is also really fun, and I enjoy all of them immensely. Recipe: MOST BIGGEST XL, fill hardpoints with stuff, be it ML, one ERLL, MG, whatever. X5 I put 2 SRM2 on, ML. Striker mech, it's fast, plays support role on the team easily and well. My fav, the black sheep 3C, I put ERPPC, and 4MG on it. Snipe, support, and then go vulture some red's. LOL at like an Awesome or Direwhale trying to turn to get me off their juicy exposed ass with Crit seeking quad MG, and ERPPC that I can fire non stop because it is the only heat weapon on the mech.

YLW, yup. I think my KRD is like 4.something in this thing. I havent seen a hate thread about it in a while, it used to be titled the worst hero mech, even over prety baby back in the day. But you guys know thats not true, we know what it can do dont we? The thing is just a freegin NINJA THUG. Other Cent are fun too, I ran the huge XL version with an LBX in the arm and had some good lulz, but YLW is by far the most enjoyable.

HBK, think it is a tie between ML boat 4P and my anti HBK G. I say anti, because I put twin ERLL in arms and a ML in head, with triple MG in Hunch. max engine in all my HBK, usually makes putting a significant ballistic in hard. I got around that by putting long range almost 20 point alpha into arms. It plays quite nicely, nimble, can reach(LL are fine for up close too) and triple MG is enough to vulture on people and ruin their day with comp destructs left and right. It is a leg pro on anything shy of assault, the triple lasers strip armor quickly, and then the MG crit the hell out of it in short order. I also had a lot of fun in the 4SP, and hae had very good matches in the Hero mech, but fun wise the P and G are it.

Pretty sure thats 5, and like I said I actually enjoy most mediums. I think the hate put towards them is misplaced, and generated by people that just cant figure them out.