113 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 28 August 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I have never played the T-wolf, I only got to try the Summoner during Public Test. So I can only compare it to the IS mechs. For me, the issue was just lack of firepower and very poor jump jets. I was hoping the jump jets would be good enough to make up for the lack of firepower, somehow. But not even close.

7 tons less of weapons, heatsinks and equipment, if you don't want jump jets. If you do want jump jets, you at least have the choice of deciding how many. I really don't understand why they didn't let the players decide how many JJ's to put on the Summoner. Was it too good in playtesting? Was the Summoner actually better than the T-Wolf, which would be bad for business? I don't get it.


I urge you to reconsider your hostile tone and your appraisal of both his validity and his arrogance.

Urge away. Roland makes very many good points, many times. And then he flushes a lot of his good work down the drain by making posts like the one I was referencing, which, while sorry to offend YOU, but I found arrogant and offensive.

Funny how that works, yes?

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 27 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Summoners and Timber Wolves, once you add an equal number of JJs to both and maximum armor, have less than 5 tons of available difference with the Timber Wolf being more limited due to having so many slots consumed.

That said, Timber Wolf also has more hardpoint options, something the Summoner severely lacks.

But what really decides it for me... is the hitboxes.

The Summoner has a basic, fair hitbox that is identical to the Awesome in almost every way in regards to the torsos.

The Timber Wolf has GIGANTIC GARGANTUAN hitboxes for the front, and miniscule flat panels for the rear. As a result, 2 rear, all the rest on the front... and you're now nearly invincible with more armor on the front than most 80 ton Victors would even be able to dream of....due to having to put 14 armor on the back.

What's really ironic is when a player that isn't exploiting the hitboxes makes a Timber Wolf with 14 armor on the rear... the Timber Wolf is so easily destroyed you'd call for buffs. But when you reduce the rear armor to 2, you can brawl in the middle of 8 people and still have no damage on your back while feeling incredibly powerful.

That's why I choose the Timber Wolf. Broken, risk-free rear torso hitboxes. Ain't nothing gonna touch them in an active battle. Now take those hitboxes and add poptarting...and was it any wonder these things replaced Victors?

(Timber Wolf front CT, 90. Victor front CT at best with high risk, 86. Timber Wolf front ST, 62 with no risk of a backshot death. Victor front ST, 54 and this is at high risk of backshot death).

(Aside from the Dire Wolf, this is true of all the "Great" Clan mechs, the creme dé la crop. Stormcrow is a huge offender of this; add the animation it has for speed-tweak running and it spreads laser beams across 5 different 'hitbox' sections, rendering them nearly useless due to spread; rear hitboxes can only be hit from directly behind and because it's nearly impossible for someone to get back there it's outclassing 70 ton IS mechs in frontal armor without risk).

thank goodness at least the TWolf jumps like raw garbage now.


Shame they ruined so many other mechs that needed their jumping, in the process. But hey, at leas the Summoner jumps ok. (At least I have no issues with it. It ain't my Ember.... but it is twice the size, ya know?)

[Mister Blastman]

Darth Futuza, on 27 August 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

Maybe this video will help you guys decide which one is better:


2 Timberwolves vs 2 Summoners
-Summoners win.

But! But! Didn't you see how OP that T-Wolf was?! It killed that Summoner in one shot! ONE... SHOT!

*sigh*



Hehe. This comment in no way detracts from my true belief that the T-Wolf is noob mode easy chair ride in MWO at the moment.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sirius Drake, on 28 August 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

Summoner.
If you ever finished a match in a stock prime without arms and out of LRM ammo you will love this bad copy of a heavy mech.

I drove my Stock Prime a weekends ago, the whole weekend (unless I was with my unit). It was...interesting. Once you learned to deal with it's limitations, it was effective, if not amazing. Well, amazing that a mech with HBK levels of armor survived to the end as often as it did, I suppose. But 450 damage and 2 kills was not uncommon. Yes, not meta worthy... but must reiterate....the mech was bone stock.

Don't know too many Stock Mech outside the Stormcrow Prime that would have been much better.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 August 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

(terribad being it really should be terribad............... 2 MPL, 1 LB-10x and 1 SSRM6.....tired it with an aSRM6, and actually avg 200 damage higher with the ssrm.... guessing while my accuracy with SRMs are decent, having ALL the missiles hit helps.)

Autocannons man. Those high hardpoints. They're what save the Summoner. Now if we could only do nifty stuff like add Endosteel to them. Dual gauss Summy-sniper. Mwahahahaaha.

And remove heatsinks from the engine... It would need that to do so.

That ain't ever happenin', though.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 28 August 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

thank goodness at least the TWolf jumps like raw garbage now.


Shame they ruined so many other mechs that needed their jumping, in the process. But hey, at leas the Summoner jumps ok. (At least I have no issues with it. It ain't my Ember.... but it is twice the size, ya know?)

Well, to be fair, the summoner also jumps like raw garbage.... It's just LESS garbage at jumping than some other mechs.

But with 5 JJ's, the thing should be able to leap really well. And it clearly cannot.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 28 August 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Stishop Beiner?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Secret I say, secret!!!!!

Viktor Drake, on 28 August 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

In general the Timber Wolf is a better mech mostly due to the Timber Wolf having a massive amount of hard point options. The Summoner is very, very limited (needs some torso mounted energy mounts badly).

Also Summoner is very tonnage limited as well. It is 5 tons lighter to start with and doesn't mount endosteel which removes another 3-4 tons of usable weight from the mech.

This doesn't make the Summoner bad, it is just that the Timber Wolf is better.

Also the Timber Wolf is ugly while the Summoner is dead sexy.

FTFY

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 28 August 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Autocannons man. Those high hardpoints. They're what save the Summoner. Now if we could only do nifty stuff like add Endosteel to them. Dual gauss Summy-sniper. Mwahahahaaha.

And remove heatsinks from the engine... It would need that to do so.

That ain't ever happenin', though.

funny enough, I only have the torso ballistic used on one model, atm. Will probably make another variant, at some point. But my Delta, I believe, runs an lb-10x in the LT, and 4 MPL. I have fun with it, and while I initially detested removing the missile drum from the silhouette, I like having one of my chassis really stand out, visually, like that.

My others are the one listed in the earlier post (and you will cringe, but I left the ballistic in the LA..... I just like how it looks better, lol) and my "LR Support" version, which has 2 ER PPC and an LRM15. Of course...that worked a lot better back before we got MW2 ppc projectile speed. Tried it with LPL, but while a LOT cooler, the lack of punch just didn't work for me.

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Well, to be fair, the summoner also jumps like raw garbage.... It's just LESS garbage at jumping than some other mechs.

But with 5 JJ's, the thing should be able to leap really well. And it clearly cannot.

Not denying this. But almost anything bigger than a Medium jumps like drek now, and even the small guys are all pretty MEH, nowadays, overall. So I am not comparing it to "earth that was", or some visionary utopia of what it could be, wbut what it is, compared to what else is out there.

And compared to the Twolf S, It jumps like a ballerina, which, IMO; is a how it should be. It's just a shame that Paul can't think through better "fixes" and so we have to compare comparable shades of "bad".

[Alistair Winter]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

Urge away. Roland makes very many good points, many times. And then he flushes a lot of his good work down the drain by making posts like the one I was referencing, which, while sorry to offend YOU, but I found arrogant and offensive. Funny how that works, yes?

I'm not offended at all, as your comment wasn't directed at me. I just recommended a more civil tone. As someone who regularly engages with other forum members because you disapprove of their QQing, I would have thought you could emphathize with someone trying to keep things civil.

I don't imagine you're offended when people complain about the game, but you'd rather the forum had less of it. For me, I don't care if people complain or celebrate, but I do recommend civility. I'd rather see a forum where people didn't resort to name-calling, especially in response to such trivial comments.

[Roland]

What was the post I made that was offensive?
I'm offensive all the time, but I don't think I was in THIS thread.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 28 August 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'm not offended at all, as your comment wasn't directed at me. I just recommended a more civil tone. As someone who regularly engages with other forum members because you disapprove of their QQing, I would have thought you could emphathize with someone trying to keep things civil.

I don't imagine you're offended when people complain about the game, but you'd rather the forum had less of it. For me, I don't care if people complain or celebrate, but I do recommend civility. I'd rather see a forum where people didn't resort to name-calling, especially in response to such trivial comments.

You are correct. Most times I try. Sometimes, I fail. Usually when I fail, it's because of a stupid idea that has been run into the ground (like I honestly have no patience for the LRM QQ anymore. It's literally a L2P problem, and sadly, most "gamers, appear to want it ez instead of having to think before acting), or because one of our regulars, has ticked me off. And I am always on a see-saw with Roland. He can make some very very good points. And He can be obstinate pig headed, regardless of results to the contrary once he has an idea locked in his head. Not a huge deal, mos tof the more prominent Forum posters can have the same said about them, including yours truly. I expect to lock horns, from time to times over stuff.

But at times, certain individuals can get into a habit of patronizing commentary which contributes little, but wears thin. This was IMO; an instance, thereof. Should I have bit my tongue? Undoubtedly. But also, someone, sometimes, needs to speak up and say hey, "don't be a ****".

Educating players on the pros and cons of the game is great. Patronizing is not educating. And the comment, I found to be highly pàtronizng. Not the first, won't be the last, I am sure.

At this point, continuing the conversation about it, I submit causes more "forum disturbance" than the actual comment.

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

What was the post I made that was offensive?
I'm offensive all the time, but I don't think I was in THIS thread.

acknowledgement is the first step to recovery. We have our "Angry Forum Posters Anonymous" meetings, tuesdays, at 730 pst. We have cookies.

In truth, it was far from one of your "most offensive" comments, and the verbiage itself was not in itself offensive. But I found the general presumption of your OP in regard to this Topic lacking in anything actually helpful, and the tone, came off to me, as dismissive and arrogant, in a thread where the OP was actually asking for detailed info. Yes, we know Twolf better. We know your opinion on it too, as you have posted it, many times. I simply (and admittedly I was also in a foul mood at the time, courtesy of the stupid weekend challenge and other PGI related issues) took exception to your post and my perception of it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 August 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

thank goodness at least the TWolf jumps like raw garbage now.


Shame they ruined so many other mechs that needed their jumping, in the process. But hey, at leas the Summoner jumps ok. (At least I have no issues with it. It ain't my Ember.... but it is twice the size, ya know?)

Ever ran a firestarter with 2 or less armor on the rear and everything else on the front?
It's got the same hitbox exploit as the TW. Try it. You'll feel invincible.

[Marauder3D]

Koniving, on 28 August 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Ever ran a firestarter with 2 or less armor on the rear and everything else on the front?
It's got the same hitbox exploit as the TW. Try it. You'll feel invincible.

Since I am apparently uninformed, what exploit do you speak of in this circumstance?

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 August 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

In truth, it was far from one of your "most offensive" comments, and the verbiage itself was not in itself offensive. But I found the general presumption of your OP in regard to this Topic lacking in anything actually helpful, and the tone, came off to me, as dismissive and arrogant, in a thread where the OP was actually asking for detailed info. Yes, we know Twolf better. We know your opinion on it too, as you have posted it, many times. I simply (and admittedly I was also in a foul mood at the time, courtesy of the stupid weekend challenge and other PGI related issues) took exception to your post and my perception of it.

Do you mean when I said the only reason to drive a summoner was because you couldn't buy a TWolf?

That's true man.. I mean, if you're speaking purely from the perspective of mech utility.

The TWolf is a straight upgrade from the Summoner. There's absolutely nothing the summoner can do better.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 28 August 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Hehe. This comment in no way detracts from my true belief that the T-Wolf is noob mode easy chair ride in MWO at the moment.

It has ease of use to it's versatility and mobility, but you can pretty much sneeze on your keyboard and kill a few people in a Dire Wolf.

It's not easy to use, but it is easy to kill people.

DW Anecdote:

Having a bad match, mouse malfunctions, I end up wasting several rounds of Dual Gauss ammo firing blindly into a wall on HPG.

By the time I figure out what is wrong, my team is on low ground, surrounded and 3 or 4 guys are dead.

I proceed to kill 4 guys in a row that I did not expect to die at all.

Then killed a locust after half my torso was ripped off (not by the locust).

Maybe I was fighting for a total of 4 or 5 minutes when I died having missed a solid 3 minutes at the start when I had to tab out and change mouse profiles.

5 kills, 5 assists, 1000+ damage.

This is what happens when you have an 80 point alpha, 30 of which is Gauss and 50 of which is hitscan.

Mister Blastman, on 28 August 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Autocannons man. Those high hardpoints. They're what save the Summoner. Now if we could only do nifty stuff like add Endosteel to them. Dual gauss Summy-sniper. Mwahahahaaha.

And remove heatsinks from the engine... It would need that to do so.

That ain't ever happenin', though.

I'd love that customization, but we have a lot of players against it. Bishop included.

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Do you mean when I said the only reason to drive a summoner was because you couldn't buy a TWolf?

Out of curiosity why "couldn't" someone buy a Timber Wolf?

It's not like Summoner's cost $10 and Timber Wolves cost $500.

[Koniving]

Marauder3D, on 28 August 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Since I am apparently uninformed, what exploit do you speak of in this circumstance?

Follow my response back to bishop, then back to my original comment on the Timber Wolf and Summoner, with a preference to the Timber Wolf due to an exploit in really bad hitbox design that makes Timber Wolves seem invincible and stronger than Victors when, if the exploit didn't exist, they would be much easier to kill and far less "the meta."

[Roland]

Ultimatum X, on 28 August 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Out of curiosity why "couldn't" someone buy a Timber Wolf?

It's not like Summoner's cost $10 and Timber Wolves cost $500.

Well, early next month you'll be able to buy the Summoner for cbills, but you won't be able to buy the TWolf for cbills for another 2 months.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

If you want to win you take a Timber wolf it gives you the best chance to do so.

If you want to lose but maybe have fun you take the summoner.

The summoner just can't compete with the wolf

[Koniving]

Ultimatum X, on 28 August 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Out of curiosity why "couldn't" someone buy a Timber Wolf?

It's not like Summoner's cost $10 and Timber Wolves cost $500.

If, instead of going to the A la Carte where they are the same price, a player was going up the tiers on the Clan Package doodad, the Summoner is 90 dollars and the Timber Wolf is 210.

Then there's the cbill/MC prices. TW will be more expensive.

Then if the original thing was about Factions... Jade Falcon members would have a much easier time getting Summoners. Wolf members would have an easier time getting Timber Wolfs. After all faction unit prices are supposed to be cheaper and the TW, while some are in Jade Falcon's possession, are not Jade Falcon mechs.

Now if from a BT perspective...
Timber Wolf: 24,233,124 C-bills
Summoner: 21,320,834 C-bills

Fairly big difference in price, particularly since without the S variant if jumpjets were hardpoint-locked, a TW without the hitbox exploits would ultimately be inferior in MWO (as are all mechs that can't jump). However, in BT jumpjets didn't really mean jack other than not having to 'climb' hills, as accuracy penalties while jumping are so high shots were pretty difficult even with targeting computers.

Edited by Koniving, 28 August 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Foxwalker]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Do you mean when I said the only reason to drive a summoner was because you couldn't buy a TWolf?

That's true man.. I mean, if you're speaking purely from the perspective of mech utility.

The TWolf is a straight upgrade from the Summoner. There's absolutely nothing the summoner can do better.

On paper, the Summoner should be a much more agile and responsive, due to 70 tons vs 75 and the max jump jets.
Initially it was.

After the nerf to Jump Jets and I am guessing game physicis, the difference is too little to matter. So even though I really like the Summoner, it now has no real reason to select it instead of the TW.