58 replies to this topic

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Why are people creating units if they're just going to disband.

Kinda makes no sense, though I get a large majority of the 400+ groups were ones where people just decided to do it to do it, but c'mon... there are some of us who have lasting groups and aren't going anywhere.

Yeah, I can't say I have any sympathy for people who donate to a unit which isn't serious (relatively) and yeah, if you believe in a unit then that donation is supposed to be a one way thing. I'm hopeful the unit leads are using their bankroll to fill up their coffers.

[Sandpit]

Bront, on 27 August 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Sure, eventually.

But now? No reason to donate at all now.

THere are a lot of potential problems that are simplified by simply saying "it's gone". It also solves problems with players leaving units and demanding their money back (You'd have to disband to return it to them if that was an option).

Why isn't there? Why wouldn't you start donating now? That's how you get your unit built up to 2,000,000,000. You start donating now and build it up over time so when CW hits your unit already has coffers with enough money to cover expenses.

[Mister Blastman]

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

So upwards of 2,000,000,000 cbills just disappear if you disband instead of going back to whoever donated them?

[TLBFestus]

Since I started this, this is my preference;


Players get back a percentage relative to what they contributed. Unless c-bill rewards and contracts are paid into Unit coffers, and I doubt that it's likely, instead they will get paid out to players who were involved in the contracts, then the coffer will never grow without players putting their money into it.

Therefore a percentage payout works just fine. No one would ever get more than they put in and most likely they would get a lower amount because Unit expenses would come out of the coffers. No way to "farm" that.

Finally, Unit expenses would need to be dealt with. Say, as someone suggested, the Unit needs some Atlai DDCs or some such thing. They would either use those coffer c-bills to BUY them, and at dissolution of the Unit the unit is scrapped at a discount (like it is now) and that money goes into the coffers for distribution as per the previous description.

Another cool idea would be that the Unit LEASES mech chasis. Sounds ridiculous, but hear me out. They pay a monthly renatl for chasis that are in a pool that's accessible to Unit members. This creates a c-bill sink which PGI so sorely loves. They also have to pay for any upgrades to the chasis.

How would they pay for upgrades? Obviously through Unit coffers, creating (ta-da!) another c-bill sink since at best on disbanding would only pay out a fraction of the value, or even (I could live with this) nothing on upgrades to leased products.

You could argue that Leased mechs wouldn't make any money for PGI but I believe players would still have their own satble of mechs, and Units would sink a lot of c-bills into leases.

Just a thought.

Edited by TLBFestus, 27 August 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

http://mwomercs.com/...ffer-donations/

A front loaded option would be to have people have a grace period during which they join a unit in which they cannot put money into the organized pool. Protect new users and skimming of them and then let buyer beware. If you don't feel confident in your unit to not disband and just scatter your cbills to the win, you may want to rethink why you're with that unit.

Edited by Daisu Saikoro, 27 August 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Bront]

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Why isn't there? Why wouldn't you start donating now? That's how you get your unit built up to 2,000,000,000. You start donating now and build it up over time so when CW hits your unit already has coffers with enough money to cover expenses.

Because the money in your pocket isn't going anywhere either, and you're trusting in faith that you'll need to spend this money in the coffers?

It depends on if you're a player than has 100,000,000+ sitting around or not. For a large majority that don't, it's a smart decision to hold on to it in our own pockets for now. Just in case nothing (or nothing good) comes of it.

[Sandpit]

Bront, on 27 August 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Because the money in your pocket isn't going anywhere either, and you're trusting in faith that you'll need to spend this money in the coffers?

It depends on if you're a player than has 100,000,000+ sitting around or not. For a large majority that don't, it's a smart decision to hold on to it in our own pockets for now. Just in case nothing (or nothing good) comes of it.

Yes, because PGi has said you'll need to spend the money in your coffers. So you're saying that PGI implemented the first piece of CW in unit affiliation but players shouldn't use it?

[Bront]

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Yes, because PGi has said you'll need to spend the money in your coffers. So you're saying that PGI implemented the first piece of CW in unit affiliation but players shouldn't use it?

I'm saying there's no need to till it does more than just fill up so the COs can swim in it like Scrooge McDuck but not actually spend it on anything.

Feel free to donate to it, but I'll be advising my group members to hold off till we have a more concrete idea of it's functionality.

Ultimately it's a personal choice. I'm just advocating to choose the one with less personal risk.

Edited by Bront, 27 August 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[Scratx]

PGI can't safely allow donated money to be returned if the unit is dismissed. Not without a lot of work. I'd rather they apply the effort to consequential things like... I dunno... things to actually do as an unit?

Besides, bear in mind that if it's a one-way money hole, PGI can actually add ways for the unit to generate money to add to that pile. You know... via contracts with the Houses? Pirating random hellholes? Raiding those vat-born warrior wannabes with shiny toys?

I dunno, but it seems to me it makes a lot easier to implement a unit-based economy if it can't possibly negatively affect the player economy that's already running...

Edited by Scratx, 27 August 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Sandpit]

Bront, on 27 August 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'm saying there's no need to till it does more than just fill up so the COs can swim in it like Scrooge McDuck but not actually spend it on anything.

Feel free to donate to it, but I'll be advising my group members to hold off till we have a more concrete idea of it's functionality.

Ultimately it's a personal choice. I'm just advocating to choose the one with less personal risk.

Point being, this thread wouldn't wouldn't even be needed if PGI woudl actually respond to questions like this

[Stonefalcon]

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

So upwards of 2,000,000,000 cbills just disappear if you disband instead of going back to whoever donated them?

Yeah personally I believe the money should go back to the people who donated it.

The only question that get's raised though is, if and when we become able to spend these C-Bills to purchase assets, defences, etc and the total amount of Unit C-Bills is lower than the amount donated, who get's what?

PGI could setup all manner of method to distribute donated C-Bills back to their rightful donaters but if somebody donated 2 bill early on and the C-Bills are returned in order of most recent donation and back, the original donater misses out. Unless those purchased assets are sold and converted to C-Bills at the 100% purchased price.

This isn't as simple a matter as you might think because regardless how PGI approach it, people will lose out when spending comes into play.

[Sandpit]

Stonefalcon, on 27 August 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Yeah personally I believe the money should go back to the people who donated it.

The only question that get's raised though is, if and when we become able to spend these C-Bills to purchase assets, defences, etc and the total amount of Unit C-Bills is lower than the amount donated, who get's what?

PGI could setup all manner of method to distribute donated C-Bills back to their rightful donaters but if somebody donated 2 bill early on and the C-Bills are returned in order of most recent donation and back, the original donater misses out. Unless those purchased assets are sold and converted to C-Bills at the 100% purchased price.

This isn't as simple a matter as you might think because regardless how PGI approach it, people will lose out when spending comes into play.

I never even implied that it was simple. It's important. It's a big issue. I mean this could literally bankrupt multiple players at once. It's something that PGI needs to answer and if they don't ahve an answer they need to come up with one
quickly

[Accused]

Why does PGI allow us to donate money to a fund we can't withdraw from? Why?

[Sandpit]

Accused, on 27 August 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why does PGI allow us to donate money to a fund we can't withdraw from? Why?

because they are unable to hit deadlines with fully functioning features

[Nick Makiaveli]

There is one big problem with giving it back that no one has mentioned.......

The database keeping track of it all. Think on it. To prevent transfers, it would have to keep up with how much each person donated so that it could be returned or deleted upon disbanding.

Couldn't delete that info if you left the group, as you might rejoin one day. So build it, maintain it, pay storage fees on the data...

Or just leave it alone and if you donate to a sketchy unit say you deserve to have your money vaporize.


Personally I will pay whatever the DHB sets as a "tax" as I have total faith in Col. Havoc as a leader, not to mention all-around stand-up cool dude.

[Sandpit]

Nick Makiaveli, on 27 August 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

There is one big problem with giving it back that no one has mentioned.......

The database keeping track of it all. Think on it. To prevent transfers, it would have to keep up with how much each person donated so that it could be returned or deleted upon disbanding.

Couldn't delete that info if you left the group, as you might rejoin one day. So build it, maintain it, pay storage fees on the data...

Or just leave it alone and if you donate to a sketchy unit say you deserve to have your money vaporize.


Personally I will pay whatever the DHB sets as a "tax" as I have total faith in Col. Havoc as a leader, not to mention all-around stand-up cool dude.

yes but what if the leader has a hissy fit one day and disbands?

[aniviron]

Viktor Drake, on 27 August 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Honestly it is really poorly implemented. This is "Community Warfare" and what this means is a that a unit should be able to pool its resources to support the UNIT (plural). For example, if my Unit needs more pilots using Atlas D-DCs for our upcoming territory battle, the unit needs to be able to buy, out of the Unit coffers, and issue out an Atlas to the unit member that is required to have it.

Remember you are suppose to be part of a Unit, not just a friends list that plays together. Having a coffer that can't be used to benefit the individual players of the unit just seems silly to me.

Of course it's silly. But it's also PGI, and letting veterans help new players out means they can't squeeze every cent out of the newer people, so it's not going to happen. Even though giving the players with millions of CB something to spend it on and new players mechs and organizations to help out would probably improve both the economy and new player retention, it means that there might be a few new players who wouldn't buy premium or spend MC on a non-hero mech. And because it'd hurt profit in the short term in exchange for a long term payoff, it won't happen.

[CN9 ACE PILOT]

They vanish like U.S.A. tax dollars.

[Sephlock]

Edustaja, on 27 August 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

We tried this on test server.

The money is gone after you disband.

If you could get money back from the guild it would enable exploits like farming cadet bonuses.

People are going to do that anyway.

[Delas Ting Usee]

When you 'DONATE' to a charity and for whatever reason they go under/away/close...do you always get your money back?
You know the inherent risks when you donate.
Hence PGI's use of the word "Donate".

Edited by Delas Ting Usee, 27 August 2014 - 08:04 PM.