66 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

Don't worry. If LRM's get out of control you can count on PGI to overnerf them again. Guaranteed.

They just reduced CLRM10/15/20 reload times to 3.5 seconds each on Test. Enjoy.

Edit: And then fixed it to make CLRM reloads longer instead. There's that nerf!

Edited by wanderer, 30 August 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[RF Greywolf]

I agree with Fut, Roland, and Lynx. Most LRM pilots get very jittery when you start pushing in on them. The tend to freak out and make stupid decisions or even split up to try to get back into their comfort zone. Yes, getting to them requires some careful movements and nerves of steel but once you get to them they usually fold. I don't run Radar Derp and very rarely run ECM or AMS yet still don't have too many issues with LRMs. If I get obliterated by LRMs then either it's very good spotting and narcing by the enemy, I was out of place or did something dumb, or I was just unlucky.

It Happens.

[Voidcrafter]

Lynx7725, on 28 August 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

No. You're letting the fear of LRM affect your thinking. I have played short range brawl builds before there was a Rader Dep module and without the benefit of ECM. For a considerable amount of time. I can win. I don't always win, but I can. I just need to be more careful about things and avoid contact until I find ground I am willing to fight over.

If you let the fear of LRM dominate your approach to your prey, then you're not really a predator. Find a way. That's the only way to get better at this game.

I AM playing brawler builds probably before you started doing it - I pretty much play almost always that.
And as I've noted multiple, multiple times - I personally DON'T have problems with LRMs, neither with me getting killed - that's brawler's life - it happens quite often no matter if it's a good or bad game - giving the most of you often means you just gotto sacrifice yourself for the sake of the rest of the team.
Good brawlers(as I like to picture myself) are able to pull few kills(2/3 <--> 6/7) and some damage(average about 700 or a bit more) before that time comes.
I'm okay with that. With both actually.

I am sort-of okay with people seing reason to buy specific mech, mount specific equipment, spend milions of CBills and tons of experience with the idea of negleting a single specific weapon in the game.
I am almost okay with people doing all those three things with the same idea.
I am somewhat almost not okay with people claiming all that is cool and dandy and balanced and the idea is right.
I am totally not okay with people doing ALL the above I mentioned.
It just aint right.

You can convince me that LRMs could be evaded by many means, even if you end up with people like you(read "me") that don't see that much point in wasting weight on this equipment and selfishly have spent CBills for the Derp. Mod. - I'll find my way around, I'll get to this and that target, I'll do my stuff, kill someone, get some assists, pull out some good damage, etc.
But I just can't count that ANY ONE from my team has taken all this measures against the LRMs and would do the same you know?
It's silly...
You(the rest of the dudes) feel like forced to take radar derp. . Or ECM. Or AMS. Or all of em.
What's the other weapon that forces you to spend that much effort on negleting it?

And what about the new guys in the solo Q?
Do you think anyone would give that much experience and CBills lightly just to not be obliterated by a "support" weapon that's constantly fired on him without LOS?
Or do you think a new player to the game would intentionally start buying ECM mechs instead of what he would really like to pilot?
All I'm saying that this game has some seeeerious issues with the freedom of building and be effective in the things you would really like.
LRMs are probably(in my eyes at least) the best example for that.
Yes - there are some really stupid stuff that you can do(build) that have zero chances of being effective.
But yet again - there are other builds that SHOULD work well, but work "meh... okay" just because things like... these.

Do you understand now?
I aint selfish in that "OHMEGOSH-IT-KILLED-ME-!!!-NERF-IT-!!" way.
Neither I completely wish the things to work JUST in the way I see it.
I want rationallity.
There aint that much of it in this game, concerning this topic
My 5 cents.

[TKSax]

I am constantly amazed how many people do not look up to see if there is a UAV, since I can only carry one arty strike I now care an arty and a UAV on all my brawler builds, get in a fight with the main force of the enemy pop a UAV and what the lrms fall. IF you are getting hit when you think you are in cover and/ro cannot see any of the enemy, be sure to look up....

[Lynx7725]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

But I just can't count that ANY ONE from my team has taken all this measures against the LRMs and would do the same you know?
It's silly...
You(the rest of the dudes) feel like forced to take radar derp. . Or ECM. Or AMS. Or all of em.
What's the other weapon that forces you to spend that much effort on negleting it?

I don't use ECM chassis. I suck at lights. I do use the DDC from time to time, but not often now.

I don't use AMS because I dislike it giving my position away. I use it on my LRM boat because I'm supposed to be in the center and a AMS would help the team. Otherwise I mostly go without one. (And my Timber Wolf can't even mount one.)

I mount Radar Dep module simply because it makes it easier for me to break lock. I've done it before without the module, I'm not dependent on it per se. I am sufficiently comfortable in my builds to not run them and still do decently well.

The only equipment I insist on running is an Active Probe, because I needed a way to break ECM at close range, and I have no non-equipment way to do that.

All the modules and equipment in the list can't help someone if he doesn't know the basics. I can substitute stealthy movement in concealment for ECM. I can substitute use of concealing terrain for Radar Dep. I can substitute superior positioning and situation awareness for Artemis. Etc. Once I know the skillset to do all these, equipment improves my performance.. but I can still do it without equipment.

Running a specific build, requires the pilot knows the limitations of the build and how to utilize the map to compensate for the weaknesses and complement the strengths. I've seen other pilots -- better pilots than me! -- use their knowledge to use joke builds to crazy extents.

PGI can "balance" anything at anytime. But if your fundamental skillset is in place, you can compensate. Too many people don't want to build up the skillset but rather vocalize their demands on the forums. I'm not just talking about LRMs here. Today PGI may nerf LRMs. Then another group will demand change to say, Gauss. Then that changes. This way, the cycle won't end, and players would just keep complaining. And PGI would just keep flopping around if it panders to the wishes of whichever vocal group is present.

The way for any one player to get out of the "general masses" is simply to practice his fundamentals to the point where he doesn't need the equipment, then use the equipment to make his performance even better.

[Mercules]

So for those going, "I shouldn't have to equip X/Y/Z to avoid damage from LRMs." If you could equip a modual that would let you dodge lasers or ACs easier, or a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that for a limited time would reduce damage form PPCs/Lasers, or a a specific mech that could grant themselves and a group of mechs in an area near immunity to ACs for a while, wouldn't you?

[braveheart95]

Thorqemada, on 28 August 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

Well, a coordinated 6 man premade with Jager XII, dedicated Narcers will break any Queue as they would break the Queue too if they field their 90+ Alpha damage boats.

It was sad to see how low resistance the Premade Queue showed against the LRM rain - isnt this where the Pros play?

Thx Jager XII + Friends for trying to make LRM the almost useless weight they were for the longest time again and PGI for having no better solution for LRM gameplay.

Well any group that involves them will break any queue regardless of what build combos they bring to the field.

[Reitrix]

There are two problems with LRMs, 3 if you count the Solo Queue occasionally giving 4+ LRM boats to one side and none to the other.

1-} Huge vertical arcs. They go up, fly horizontal until just over the target, then drop down almost vertically. negating most cover that is not 3x the size of your 'Mech.
---To fix this, simply make the arc much more shallow. This has the bonus upside of improving LRMs for direct fire engagements.

2-} Reload times. LRMs need a LONG reload time.
LRM5s have a 3.10 second reload, while the LRM15 has a reload of just 4 seconds. 3x the damage for less than a second extra reload time?
---Solution here is to slap ALL LRM sizes with a flat 10 second reload.

The current reload time for the LRM10 allows me to load and fire my Stalkers 50 tubes every 3.5 seconds. So i can dump 50 damage on my target from 1000m every 3.5 seconds.
10 seconds, 150 damage. At least 2/3rds of that damage will go to the Torso sections.
Meanwhile, a PPC boat (for a max of 30 damage) can put 30 damage every 4 seconds, oh wait, no it can't, i have to wait 10+ seconds to fully cool off after a single shot. Also, the target can choose exactly where to take that shot via twisting.
LRMs are liable to hit your rear armor even when you face the target directly, since they come down almost vertically.

Fix those two problems and LRM boating will cease to be an issue.
The mandatory Module+Equipment+Ammo will return to being optional.

[Hades Trooper]

gamingogre, on 27 August 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

I am so sick of trying to play in group and finding only LRM groups. They are invincible. I mostly play Ballistics; and from my point of view, things are way out of balance. Just last round, I am in a cataphract. Full armor, i pop up to shoot and in that 2-3 second window I am locked for LRMs. I back up down the mountain and am out of sight from all enemies and no uav. I keep backing up and getting hit by missiles; there is no narc or spotter. I die from these missiles that held lock for 12+ seconds. How do you hold a lock for so long? Unless this is a hack (which i doubt) Clan missiles and lock times have broken this game. I didn't have a single round hit 100+ damage all night in the group queue. Every time it's the same story. LRM lock on, I run to cover. Cover fails and I die. The weapons are meant to be like rock, paper, scissors. Yet in most of my mechs (the non-ECM ones) there is no check for LRMS. you get locked, you run for cover, the cover failes to cover you, and you die. Hence, game broken.

obviously if you claim it was 12 seconds meant you where being spotted by a good light mech as you wheren't aware of them.

+1 for spotting support.

my response it, bring ams, run radar derp, look for an ecm mech. use the training grounds and see what is actually cover and not by using 3rd person pov to see if your mech your using is able to hide at all.

I find a combination of all these means lrms aren't over powered, they just pawn people who have no idea what there doing easy.

Reitrix, on 28 August 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

There are two problems with LRMs, 3 if you count the Solo Queue occasionally giving 4+ LRM boats to one side and none to the other.

1-} Huge vertical arcs. They go up, fly horizontal until just over the target, then drop down almost vertically. negating most cover that is not 3x the size of your 'Mech.
---To fix this, simply make the arc much more shallow. This has the bonus upside of improving LRMs for direct fire engagements.

2-} Reload times. LRMs need a LONG reload time.
LRM5s have a 3.10 second reload, while the LRM15 has a reload of just 4 seconds. 3x the damage for less than a second extra reload time?
---Solution here is to slap ALL LRM sizes with a flat 10 second reload.

The current reload time for the LRM10 allows me to load and fire my Stalkers 50 tubes every 3.5 seconds. So i can dump 50 damage on my target from 1000m every 3.5 seconds.
10 seconds, 150 damage. At least 2/3rds of that damage will go to the Torso sections.
Meanwhile, a PPC boat (for a max of 30 damage) can put 30 damage every 4 seconds, oh wait, no it can't, i have to wait 10+ seconds to fully cool off after a single shot. Also, the target can choose exactly where to take that shot via twisting.
LRMs are liable to hit your rear armor even when you face the target directly, since they come down almost vertically.

Fix those two problems and LRM boating will cease to be an issue.
The mandatory Module+Equipment+Ammo will return to being optional.

no no no,

just flat out NO

[ApolloKaras]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

We absolutely rolled some 12 man running like 8 LRM boats last night, with a team consisting of smaller groups.

Turns out, if you have the guts to keep pressing, LRM teams tend to fall apart.

The big problem many folks have is that they think they need to "stay in cover", which they translate to mean, "cower in a hole". However, this is generally what LRM heavy teams want... to have you sit way back from them and let them leisurely fire missiles at you while some lighter mechs get locks for them.

Just push on them and kick their faces in.

TKSax, on 28 August 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

I am constantly amazed how many people do not look up to see if there is a UAV, since I can only carry one arty strike I now care an arty and a UAV on all my brawler builds, get in a fight with the main force of the enemy pop a UAV and what the lrms fall. IF you are getting hit when you think you are in cover and/ro cannot see any of the enemy, be sure to look up....

These two guys x100000

[stjobe]

gamingogre, on 27 August 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

I keep backing up and getting hit by missiles

Yeah, there's your problem.

Turn. Run.

Once you break lock, the missiles will go to your last known position, and if you're not fast enough (which you almost certainly aren't if backing up), they'll still hit you without the lock.

I get that you were in the perfect spot for your weapons, but you should also remember that they saw you there - there's no point in going back to the exact same space (they will be looking for you there), so there's absolutely no reason for you to not turn and run for another spot.

And if you do, any unlocked LRMs will miss.

[Wintersdark]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Well I get killed by LRMs - if that means I'm unskilled we can try schedule some 1v1s if you insist - if that would've proove something.
As for the rest:
No one can force you to pick up mech that has ECM(not to mention you could not have any).
You should never, ever ,ever pick ECM mech just cause otherwise you're gonna get nuked to oblivion by LRMs - that by itself speaks enough about this whole convo.
No one can force to bring AMS and you shouldn't do so just to soak 5 LRMs per volley, while there's a quite decent chance that there either won't be any LRM boats, or if they are that they would rain over some targets around you.
Sometimes you DO understand that enemy ECM raven/spider/kitfox/all are seeing you, NARCing you, TAGing you, and there aint a thing you can do about it - not in time though - 3 LRM boats need about 5/6 seconds targeting time to completely kill an assault mech - since any not-brain-dead LRM boat is bringing adv. target decay module, which gets us to our next argument:
Radar derp.
Yet the next "SO MUST TO HAVE!! I NEEDS IT!!" module, that people try to proclaim it's a MUST.
Yea. It kinda is. And the very sole reason for that are LRMs again.

So looky looky - ECM, Target Derp. AMS, good cover, not get spotted and NARCed - all these stuff are needed because of a single friggin weapon that, if used well, has 0 risk chance(while you're firing at your target).
I'm not saying that I have issues with LRMs - yea, I get killed by them but so what?
I'm getting killed by all sorts of ACs, Lasers, SRMs and etc.

I am against people saying that you need sooo much should-be-optional sheet just to have defense against basic-aim-and-possitioning-low-skill-indirect-fire-weapon-that-you-can-fire-a-kilometer-away-at-your-target-without-seing-it-at-all?
People are getting killed by it.
And accept it finally - it's not ALWAYS their own mistakes.
I don't have a single ECM mech - what if all the players I drop together with are the same huh?
Will you say that I MUST buy ECM mech to not get killed by LRMs?
Don't you find that sooo sooooooo stupid?

Stop. Calling. People. Killed. By. LRMs. Low. Skill. Idiots.
OKAY?

Here's the thing.

If you get annihilated by LRM's, and:
1) The enemy team is all LRM boats
Of course you did. They didn't win because LRM's, though, because LRM's are still the weakest overall weapon system. But of course LRM's killed everyone. This is no different than if the whole enemy team was chock full of autocannons. "OMG! AUTOCANNON RAIN KILLED ME!"

Still, you don't lose to an LRM team because LRM's are overpowered, you lose for the same reason as most other losses: you got outplayed.

2) There are only a few LRM boats on the enemy team
You got outplayed. This is a skill issue.

In your post, you conflate lack of skill with avoiding LRM's with just poor skill overall, and that's not the case. You can be a great player otherwise but just be bad at dealing with LRM's.

The hard fact of the matter is, if you are getting ganked regularly by LRM's, it IS a learn to play issue. This doesn't mean you're stupid/an idiot/bad at the game overall, but it does mean you need to learn to deal with them.

It *IS* a learn to play issue.

[Fut]

stjobe, on 28 August 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Yeah, there's your problem.

Turn. Run.

Once you break lock, the missiles will go to your last known position, and if you're not fast enough (which you almost certainly aren't if backing up), they'll still hit you without the lock.

I get that you were in the perfect spot for your weapons, but you should also remember that they saw you there - there's no point in going back to the exact same space (they will be looking for you there), so there's absolutely no reason for you to not turn and run for another spot.

And if you do, any unlocked LRMs will miss.

DING DING DING DING!!!!
We have a Weiner!!

Something I don't understand though;
The Dude who was just backing up and still eating the LRMs, was this the first time this happened to them? If so, was it really time to QQ Rage on the forums?
If this wasn't the first time it happened, why did they think that simply backing up would work for them after the first time(s) failed?

Edited by Fut, 28 August 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Reitrix, on 28 August 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

There are two problems with LRMs, 3 if you count the Solo Queue occasionally giving 4+ LRM boats to one side and none to the other.

No. LRM's on one team and not on the other is ideal for the team without LRM's. See, if you have none, your whole team can take paths on the maps that negate LRM usage (tunnels, close cover, overhangs) that you can't choose to take if you've got LRM's - or, if your team has LRM's, servers to negate much of your own team's firepower.

LRM's are not a force multiplier. They are not a particularly strong weapon system (though they are no longer weak).

Quote

1-} Huge vertical arcs. They go up, fly horizontal until just over the target, then drop down almost vertically. negating most cover that is not 3x the size of your 'Mech.
---To fix this, simply make the arc much more shallow. This has the bonus upside of improving LRMs for direct fire engagements.

No. They don't drop down almost vertically. It's trivially easy to find cover on almost every map.

LRM's are extremely effective on Caustic, and moderately useful on Alpine. Two maps. Every other map has massive amounts of very effective cover, and Alpine has major LOS breakers so you can minimize your exposure.

Quote

2-} Reload times. LRMs need a LONG reload time.
LRM5s have a 3.10 second reload, while the LRM15 has a reload of just 4 seconds. 3x the damage for less than a second extra reload time?
---Solution here is to slap ALL LRM sizes with a flat 10 second reload.

The current reload time for the LRM10 allows me to load and fire my Stalkers 50 tubes every 3.5 seconds. So i can dump 50 damage on my target from 1000m every 3.5 seconds.
10 seconds, 150 damage. At least 2/3rds of that damage will go to the Torso sections.
Meanwhile, a PPC boat (for a max of 30 damage) can put 30 damage every 4 seconds, oh wait, no it can't, i have to wait 10+ seconds to fully cool off after a single shot. Also, the target can choose exactly where to take that shot via twisting.
LRMs are liable to hit your rear armor even when you face the target directly, since they come down almost vertically.

Fix those two problems and LRM boating will cease to be an issue.
The mandatory Module+Equipment+Ammo will return to being optional.

Increasing reload times and damage proportionally would make LRM's better, IMHO. They'd do the same damage over time, but it would require players to pick their shots more carefully and give defenders more time between salvos, while allowing ammo loads to last longer.

With that said, you can't even begin to compare LRM's to direct fire weaponry. You can twist to change where a PPC hits at long range, but not closer (even at their new speed, at 400m that PPC is hitting exactly where the firer wants it to hit).

If you're hitting someone at all at the extremes of range with LRM's, it's a shock. Seriously.

I've got some 5000 drops now. That's a decent amount by any measure. But I'm not at really high Elo by any stretch of the imagination... Still, I don't die to LRM's. Pretty much ever. And that's not because I'm special, or extremely good at the game, but instead because there are so many counters to LRM's. With the exceptions of the various LRM apocalypses over the years (such as when LRM's actually did fall down almost vertically, not like people think they do now but when they actually did) there hasn't been a single time in the last couple years when I though "Hey, LRM's might be a little overpowered."

I've always viewed LRM boats as Free Kills.

[Kaspirikay]

just give us solaris, LRMs won't cause so much issues there

[CDLord HHGD]

Lyoto Machida, on 28 August 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

You are obviously not as good as you think if you believe your post.

While I may agree with this sentiment, using what could be construed as a personal insult isn't the best use of a forum post (or shouldn't be anyways ) El Bandito broke it down perfectly. Nothing else need be said.

[Lynx7725]

Reitrix, on 28 August 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

The current reload time for the LRM10 allows me to load and fire my Stalkers 50 tubes every 3.5 seconds. So i can dump 50 damage on my target from 1000m every 3.5 seconds.
10 seconds, 150 damage. At least 2/3rds of that damage will go to the Torso sections.

You got some good LRM launchers there. By common statistics from users here, on average 2/3 of a salvo misses. So 10 seconds, 50 damage, spread over location.

[Fut]

Wintersdark, on 28 August 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

I've always viewed LRM boats as Free Kills.

It's such a blast to find an LRM Boat, carefully make your way towards them, then brawl them as they try to defend with their 2xMLs.

[Lynx7725]

Fut, on 28 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's such a blast to find an LRM Boat, carefully make your way towards them, then brawl them as they try to defend with their 2xMLs.

One fight on Crimson, my LRMrion moved up to find a Stalker LRMBoat... with no close in weapon. I had 2 Med Lasers. I was following him around like a happy puppy....

[Reitrix]

Fut, on 28 August 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's such a blast to find an LRM Boat, carefully make your way towards them, then brawl them as they try to defend with their 2xMLs.

Absolutely. 1v1, finding an LRM boat is always fun. For me at leats. Just finished a Frozen City Night match where there enemy had 5 LRM boats, so i flanked, dropped into the crevasse and 1v1'd an Atlas with LRMs, Gauss and MLs. Took next to no damage doing it too.

The problem was that since he locked on to me, the enemy team all knew i was down there, and thus i melted a few seconds later.

No one, not even the most ardent LRM hater would argue that one single boat, on its own is a problem.
Hell, technically even 12 boats isn't a problem. The problem is entirely with the trajectories of the missiles, coupled with their insanely low reload time.
Shooting from a good distance away, i can put 3 salvos in the air before the first one lands.

Saying "Just learn to use cover noob" doesn't really cut it. Especially as nearly all maps have these fun open firing lanes that you need to push through if you want to bring your opponent into an engagement they can't run from.
Alpine is the absolute worst for this. LRM team takes the hill at H9, and the enemy has no choice but to push through an extremely open cover free zone on all sides to get to them.
If you do not have adequate ECM coverage and an abundance of AMS... Enjoy watching Assaults melt in seconds flat. And if you're lucky enough to get to them without losing anyone doing it, you now have to contend not oinly with those machine gun LRM salvos, but now you have to survive against their unscathed brawlers/direct fire 'Mechs while doing it. With significantly less armor.

Unless of course, you're suggesting that no one ever takes things like AC20/10s, Medium Lasers, SRMs and Pulse lasers, then just camps out and ridgehumps until time out.