18 replies to this topic

[John1352]

The forums are filled to the brim with people claiming that long range missiles are OP. I am going to contend that the state of the LRM supports and counters is the problem, and that they are making LRMs nearly impossible to balance.

In every game, there are a certain number of mechs carrying LRMs, TAG, NARC, ECM, AMS, BAP, radar deprivation module, target decay module, sensor range module and maybe even a command console. Some of these items are for stopping enemy LRMs and some of them support allied LRMs.

Here's an explanation of their effects: (someone tell me if I've missed any effects or have a mistake, a lot of this is copied from: http://mwo.gamepedia.com)

Spoiler

LRMs: A missile weapon that fires in an arc. 1.1 damage per missile. 180m minimum range, ~980m maximum range. Low heat, heavy considering launcher and ammo. Comes in 5, 10, 15 and 20 missiles per shot launchers.

Supports:

Tag (Target Acquisition Gear):

- 50% bonus to missile tracking strength

- Target lock takes 25% longer to decay

- Decreases missile lock on time by 50%

- Displays an icon (a small crosshair symbol) above the target's red triangle icon in HUD to display to team-mates that target is being lased.

- Effect lasts for 1 second after each laser "hit".

- Generates no heat, recommend using continuous fire.

- TAG penetrates ECM, making a mech in an ECM bubble targetable. Lockon time is still longer than normal.

NARC:

- 50% bonus to missile tracking strength (not exactly sure what this means)

- 50% faster missile lock on time

- Target lock takes 25% longer to decay

- Min 1 ton of ammo needed (12 shots/ton).

- Does not require LOS once attached to target.

- Counters ECM while beacon is active.

- Lasts 30 seconds. 40 with the improved NARC module.

- Adds a "wifi" symbol above the enemy mech.

BAP (Beagle Active Probe): 25% increased sensor range, 25% decreased target info acquisition time, allows targeting of shutdown mechs within 120m, counters one ECM within 150m. (Will not stack with ECM) 1.5 tons, 2 slots.

Target decay: Increases the time a target remains locked after leaving line of sight from 2 to 2.75 seconds or 3.5 seconds with the advanced version.

Sensor range: Increases sensor range by 15% (120m) or advanced 25% (200m)

Command console: Increases sensor range by 6%, zoom distance by 5.25% and decreases target info gathering time by 20.5%, weighs 3 tons and takes one slot (head) Usually a waste of tonnage for LRM mechs.

Counters:

ECM (Electronic CounterMeasures + bonus invisibility): While it doesn't actually make you invisible, it sometimes feels that way when you use it. Here's the copypasted version of what it does:

By default, the ECM is in “disrupt” mode. While it is in this mode, it creates a bubble of sorts that scrambles enemy communications and sensor systems. ECM will also hide friendly 'Mechs within its range. Mechs carrying an ECM in disrupt mode are marked with an ECM icon.

All friendly Mechs (including the one with the ECM) within the range of an ECM in disrupt mode (180 m) are ‘cloaked’ from enemy sensors. Mechs that are hidden in this manner are marked with a symbol that looks like an eye.

When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

- Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.

- The Beagle Active Probe will extend this range.

- It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.

- Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.

- Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

- You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.

- You cannot achieve any missile locks.

- Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.

- Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

ECM has a second mode, Counter, which will disable one enemy ECM.

AMS:

- 1 critical slot and weight (0.5 t) for the AMS, ammunition takes 1 additional critical slot for every ton of ammunition.

- Does 3.5 damage per second to missiles.

- All missiles have 1 hitpoint, except the NARC, which has 2.

- The range of the AMS is 120m optimal 240m max.

- Works against all missiles including the LRM, SRM, SSRM, and Narc.

- The AMS will destroy a normal missile in 9 shots and a NARC in 18 shots.

Radar Deprivation:

Normal target locks lost immediately when LOS is broken. TAG allows target lock to remain for 1 second. NARC is not affected. This is very powerful on light mechs.

These supports and counters are capable of entirely preventing LRMs from getting a lock, or allowing LRMs to be locked onto an enemy mech that it not visible to any team member. These "Hard" supports and counters make the performance of LRMs completely dependent on them.

Here are two examples of how LRMs can be useless in some circumstances and OP in others, based on the amounts of counters and supports, with two identical teams against each other:

Example one; useless:

Team compositions: 2 ECM lights, 2 energy mediums (one is ECM cicada), 2 ballistic heavies, 2 LRM boat heavies, 2 LRM boat assaults (one is ECM atlas), two ballistic/energy assaults. No TAG, no NARC, 6 AMS per team, most brought target deprivation.

The ballistic and energy mechs are fighting under ECM from the lighter mechs, the LRM mechs are under the DDC's ECM. Nobody is staying in LOS for long due to direct fire weapons. The ECM mechs aren't using counter mode (most don't seem to know it exists). There are next to no targeted mechs on the field, once one of the team's direct fire mechs beat the other team's, the losing team's LRM boats are left helpless to ECM covered attackers. (but the winning team's LRMs are useless also, as the DDC is still covering the remaining enemies)

Example two; OP:

Team compositions: 2 NARC lights, 2 energy mediums, 2 ballistic heavies, 2 LRM boat heavies, 2 LRM boat assaults (one is ECM atlas), two ballistic/energy assaults. 3 AMS per team, couple of TAGs, few adv. sensor range, two of the LRM boats brought adv. target decay.

Each team's NARC lights immediately start sneaking around the enemies. Only a few mechs are within the DDC's ECM bubble. Someone is NARCed. They lose half their health to LRMs before getting to good cover. The first mediums come into LOS, they immediately get tagged and have ~150 LRMs coming at them. Due to tag, they lose their CT and die. Someone else is narced, this time under the ECM bubble. NARC lights get frustrated by the ECM, and narc the DDC. 500 LRMs and 15 seconds later, there is no more DDC. One team gets an advantage, the direct fire mechs move in, take heaps of damage, but the mechs they had targeted die from missile bombardment. Then it is a clean up job.

The point of those stories is to show how with equal numbers of LRMs in two games, one of them could have the LRM boats averaging 100 damage, the other 6-800, and the only thing that changed was the amount of supports and counters.

Here's a table showing how I view the balance of LRMs relative to the amount of supports and counters:

	NO SUPPORTS	FEW SUPPORTS	MED SUPPORTS	MANY SUPPORTS
NO COUNTERS	Balanced	LRMs are OP	LRMs are very OP	LRMs are EXTREMELY OP
FEW COUNTERS	LRMs are weak	Balanced	LRMs are OP	LRMs are very OP
MED COUNTERS	LRMs are very weak	LRMs are weak	Balanced	LRMs are OP
MANY COUNTERS	LRMs are useless	LRMs are very weak	LRMs are weak	Balanced

Note that the first column is a rare case. LRM mechs usually carry some support systems for their missiles, so they don't get into those situations.

The support-counter system is what is making LRMs "OP". The people complaining are not bringing enough counters OR their enemies are bringing too many supports. The situation can be improved by making ECM a soft counter (increases lockon time, but does not hide triangles), reducing the effects of modules, making NARC less of a death sentence, buffing AMS (currently a very soft counter) and THEN rebalancing missile damage if needed.

TL;DR:
Long range missiles are not OP on their own. An excess of supports makes them OP. Excessive counters make them weak. The support/counter system is too "hard". Missiles cannot be balanced properly when their performance is far more dependent on supports and counters than it is on damage, heat or other missile stats.

The forums have wreaked havoc with my formatting, particularly the table, I'm trying to improve it, but forum software is modifying it automatically.

Edited by John1352, 28 August 2014 - 04:00 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

This.

[CheeseThief]

Quote

- TAG completely nullifies ECM

Unless this has changed when I wasn't looking, it does not.

TAG lets you target through ECM, but with a lock-on time penatly. The lock-on time for LRM's against TAGed yet ECM shielded mechs is painfully slow.

Quote

- Lasts 30 seconds. (can someone confirm?)

The NARC lasts for 20 seconds out of the box, 30 seconds with the Improved NARC module.

[D34K]

OP or not, what remains an incontrovertible fact is that LRMs are disproportionately rewarding for the amount of skill required to use them.

[John1352]

Thanks CheeseThief, I knew I'd get some of the info wrong, I copied that TAG line from the wiki, I should have reworded it already, and NARC really feels like 30 seconds to me (I don't use advanced).

D34K, on 28 August 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

OP or not, what remains an incontrovertible fact is that LRMs are disproportionately rewarding for the amount of skill required to use them.

How about NARC? One of the most common examples people give about LRMs being OP is "I got NARCed on caustic and died" Have you tried narcing the ECM spider that is blocking any narcs you manage to stick on someone?

Edited by John1352, 28 August 2014 - 03:48 AM.

[CheeseThief]

I stand corrected.

Both stopwatch and Smurfy say 30 second standard, with the module bringing it up to 40.

Edited by CheeseThief, 28 August 2014 - 03:50 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

D34K, on 28 August 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

OP or not, what remains an incontrovertible fact is that LRMs are disproportionately rewarding for the amount of skill required to use them.

Only the boats - which generally suck anyway if their foe knows how to beat them. (My medium bralwers LOVE LRM boats - they're delicious!)

[John1352]

CheeseThief, on 28 August 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

I stand corrected.

Both stopwatch and Smurfy say 30 second standard, with the module bringing it up to 40.

Now I need to edit it again

[Moomtazz]

The problem with LRMs is that they have a built-in autoassist feature. One missile boat is balanced. Six missile boats firing on the same target is unbalanced. The LRM targeting system makes it too easy to focus fire. In the event that multiple enemy targets are available, it even shows you which target has missiles en route to it, so that other missile boats can focus it.

Change easy focus targeting and my complaints about LRMs would stop.

[John1352]

I stayed away from the lock sharing system on purpose. I can't really predict the results of having a system so fundamental to gameplay removed. Lower accuracy when firing at targets locked by an ally would be an interesting mechanic though.

[Mercules]

D34K, on 28 August 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

OP or not, what remains an incontrovertible fact is that LRMs are disproportionately rewarding for the amount of skill required to use them.

If you want to stand in one place, hope no fast mechs come find you while your team is away, and spam LRMs at every target that lights up in the hope that SOME missiles reach their target and pray for dumb opponents... then your comment has some truth to it. However if you actually want your missiles to land on a regular basis against semi-skilled opponents there is a skill to LRMs, almost more so than "Point at mech, push button X or Y."

You have to know where you are in relation to the targeted mech on the map and decided if that lock is stable and worth the launch or if you should wait. This takes map knowledge and skill to determine the LRMs most likely path and the target's most likely speed and nearest cover.
=========================================================


The real issue is that the matchmaker doesn't look at MECHS just tonnage category when it makes matches. Sure player1's Elo is moderate but he is in an ECM DDC filled with missiles and the matchmaker just tucked in in next to player2 who runs his NARCing Raven extremely well. Oh but we will balance this out by putting a new player in a Trial Assault on the other side and someone in a Flamer & MG Locust. That's balanced, right?

[Scurry]

Pretty much this. The problem with LRMs is that there is little-to-no middle ground - they're feast/famine.

[Rashhaverak]

No, LRMs are not OP. People who don't want to put AMS on their mechs would just rather complain and nerf instead of loading countermeasures.

I hate having to keep moving, but I die every time I stand still; therefore, I think that auto cannons are OP and should be nerfed.

[Thorqemada]

To Balance LRM you have to let go AMS also - if you keep AMS it will simply force Players to more boating and higher Numbers of Tubes to overwhelm the oposite AMS.

Indirect fire needs to become weaker, direct fire needs to become stronger, Ammo count needs to be lower (simply remove all 1.0 ton ammo modules from the game and only leave the 0.5 tons modules -> Ammo halved).

[Andross Deverow]

As mentioned in other posts, LRM's are not so much overpowered as they are just being abused. I see alot of boats out there. Nowadays whenever PGI decides to hold an event with possibilities of getting "free" stuff the ques are packed full of LRM noobs. Its just human nature, take the easiest way to secure your free stuff.
I dont know of a good way to reduce the amount of LRM abuse but a good start would be to limit the ability of others to target via line of sight as mentioned in alot of other posts. If LRM's are to be used without line of sight they enemy should have to be tagged or narc'd or a UAV should be flying above them.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards

[3rdworld]

Thorqemada, on 28 August 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Indirect fire needs to become weaker, direct fire needs to become stronger

My thoughts exactly.

[RangerGee412]

On caustic or alpine with with a mech narcing lrms can shine and be very effective. Every other map they can be anywhere from decent to useless.

[Roland]

LRM's are not OP.. they're just broken, unfun weapons.

They need a complete overhaul of the underlying mechanics, because they ones in place today do not work. That's why LRM's have never felt balanced at any point in this game's entire history. MW4's LRM's were far more balanced than any iteration of MWO.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

LRM's are not OP.. they're just broken, unfun weapons.

They need a complete overhaul of the underlying mechanics, because they ones in place today do not work. That's why LRM's have never felt balanced at any point in this game's entire history. MW4's LRM's were far more balanced than any iteration of MWO.

I disagree entirely.

MWO's LRM's are not broken, the mechanics governing Indirect Fire... is broken.

IDF should only be useable in the following instances.

Target is locked while in view, then moves out of view [for the duration it takes for the lock to be lost, you may still fire weaponry.]
Target is under NARC.
Target is under TAG.
Target is being targeted by a teammate who has a C3 slave computer, while you have a C3 Master. [clarification on C3 systems as a whole would be appreciated. but this is my understanding of how it would work.]

While I understand why PGI allowed IDF to begin with, as it WAS something that you could do in the basic tabletop game, the sad reality is that it doesn't work well in the real time environment we currently have.

As it sits currently, anyone of your team, targeting an enemy mech, shares that information with EVERYONE... making it so that the LOS radar is pretty much pointless. The current abundence of TAG/NARC is also adding to the preceved problem [which it's not, it's nice seeing these support weapons actively being used right now.]

With the addition of clan tech as well, many mechs have missile points that, well, you might as well just throw on a missile system or two... which feels like it compounds the problem in the heaver classes of mechs. [Twolf Prime comes to mind, having those LRM's on that is just godly frankly.]

What PGI needs to do, is simply remove indirect firing, if a friendly has a target lock on the enemy, fine, show a locked box, show the enemy on the minimap even. But DO NOT LET ME FIRE MY LRM'S AT SAID TARGET... unless they are under TAG/NARC assist, or in my direct line of sight.

Edited by Flash Frame, 28 August 2014 - 06:25 AM.