120 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

Budor, on 30 August 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

TLDR but i agree, they need nerfs.

Aparently you need to read.. as i 'dont' think they deserve all of the nerfs their getting =P

[Wolfways]

Another problem for IS mechs that I see all the time is crap builds. Full customization seems to be an invitation to build some of the worst mechs possible. I cry when i see a Jagermech (very much an OP IS mech) with its AC's replaced by MG's and the player trying to stay at range only firing lasers

[RealityCube]

One very important issue that people aren't talking about is...

Don't stand still directly in front of a clan mech! Learn to move and torso twist. I love it when mechs don't move or torso twist and stand directly in front of my 4 SRM6 Kit Fox, and get absolutely destroyed.

[Pht]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

To start this out. Yes, i do play Clan Mech's. Currently a Timber, Dire Wolf, and a Kitfox. I was thinking of picking up the Thor when it went live, but after playing with it on the PTS... im not gonna pick it up. Couldn't find a build i liked (it honestly felt gimped), so may pick up the Stormcrow instead.

Now.. Every patch ive seen PGI do in regards to the Clan's, its nerf after nerf after nerf. They had nearly a year of internal testing time with these things, yet the moment they go live, all we see are nerfs added in again and again. My question is Why?

Ok.. Lets keep the 'numbers' out of this discussion and focus strictly on what we SEE in matches.

It's impossible to know how the playerbase is going to "game" the game, and when your system of balancing things requires watching the numbers on the back end and trying to tweak them to get the results you want...

[Kubernetes]

The way to deal with Clan mechs is to take advantage of IS weaponry. The old meta is still viable; Clans can't match IS ACs, and they don't have regular PPCs. So yeah, don't get into staredowns with high-DPS Clan mechs, pop them with your superior pinpoint FLD weapons, and then take cover while their CERLLs burn the landscape for two seconds. If you're running an IS heavy or assault and relying on lasers for your primary direct firepower, you gonna die.

[SaltBeef]

Saw that today in my summoner 5 srm6 build. Mech just backed up did not evade my constant stream of chain fired srms into his CT. Funny thing is his 3 team members just let it happen one drop arty on me but did not kill me I just moved away after the kill.

[SaltBeef]

But there are good fights too. In same srm summoner I took on a guass highlander in tourmalene both of us jj around overheating fireing good fight ... I won but thought I was going to lose. A SUMMONER should be able to kill a highlander in a 1 on 1 fight. I got killed shortly after the highlander put up a good brawlin.

[Zoid]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

At what point did i say the 'only' thing you need to do is use flamers?

I said make USE of flamers. Useing them in conjunction with everything else mentioned, and you will see a difference.

And as for taking on 3+ clanners. Taking on 3+ IS mech's with anything kills you. 3-1 odds with or in anything usually results in the 1 dying. So i fail to see the point in your pitiful attempt to troll =P

I'm not the one trolling here. If you're able to get close enough to the deathball to use flamers enough to actually make a difference, you're playing against some really bad players. You might get a few seconds of extra heat added, but all you're going to do is cost that Warhawk one alpha strike cycle, at the expense of getting yourself killed.


Clans really aren't in a bad place balance-wise though. They are significantly stronger in "honorable combat" which is what the clans should excel at. This is why the Dire Wolf is powerful, but not really overpowered. It has to be exposed while unloading all those guns. The problem comes down really to the Timberwolf, which can duck in and out of cover as well as any IS 'mech and carry a lot of firepower. If something changed so the Timberwolf needed to stay exposed more in order to really deal its damage like the Dire Wolf does, we'd be doing pretty well for balance.

Edited by Zoid, 30 August 2014 - 03:54 PM.

[SaltBeef]

No

[EboneezeeR]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

To start this out. Yes, i do play Clan Mech's. Currently a Timber, Dire Wolf, and a Kitfox. I was thinking of picking up the Thor when it went live, but after playing with it on the PTS... im not gonna pick it up. Couldn't find a build i liked (it honestly felt gimped), so may pick up the Stormcrow instead.

Now.. Every patch ive seen PGI do in regards to the Clan's, its nerf after nerf after nerf. They had nearly a year of internal testing time with these things, yet the moment they go live, all we see are nerfs added in again and again. My question is Why?

Ok.. Lets keep the 'numbers' out of this discussion and focus strictly on what we SEE in matches.

ie: Weapon Loadouts used, The ending of a Match were you see who's left alive, and who isnt. The TACTICS used durring those fights.

Ive participated in both of the Clan vs IS PTS runs, and ive played plenty of regular play with Clan and IS mixed matches. Not once have i ever seen a instance were an IS mech was simply rolled over by a Clan mech of equal weight class (ie Jagger vs Timber, or Atlas vs Dire Wolf) Sure there have been plenty of times ive seen a Timber bowl right over a Hunchback (ive done it myself), but thats not a "clan tech is op!" issue, its a Design fault on the Hunchback itself that the Clanner and ALL other pilots (be they in IS or Clan mech's) take advantage of. Shoot the hump, gimp the mech. There's also been plenty of times my Kitfox has run into an Atlas and gotten instantly obliterated. Again, not a "my Clan mech is nerfed to death!" issue, its simply bad luck on my part running up against something i had no hope of killing at that particular time.

What i have noticed though in the PTS when they do the IS vs Clan matches, and during Mixed matches on the live server are the following:

1.) Clan Mechs almost ALWAYS stay in a 'clump'. Giving them an advantage over the IS players that, in a totally opposite ploy, nearly always end up 'strung out' in a line. Is this a "Clans are OP" thing?. No.. the Design of Clan mech's in that we can NOT change our engines, means that we all move at relatively the same speed. This in itself causes almost all Clan mech's, be they a pair of Solo players or a full lance of players grouped together, to naturally group up into 1 unit. IS mech's though, have speeds that vary outrageously. You'll see Hunchbacks with max-sized XL engines nearly outrunning Jenner's with the smallest engine it can mount (so they can carry bigger weapons). Its this variety of Speeds that is the Double-edge Sword on IS mech's. It makes you more Flexible, but it ALSO makes it harder for you to 'naturally' work together. And in this Game, the team that is strung out in a line, 99% of the time, is the one that will lose the match.

*note* The above is the single biggest reason i saw for nearly All of the matches in which the Clans 12-0'd the IS mechs on PTS. It was never a case of us having more firepower, it was almost always a case of us simply having more people shooting at them at one time because their buddies were always strung out from each other.

2.) Clan weapons (pre nerfing to death) have a longer reach. Is this a "Clan is OP!" thing? Not really, because that longer reach comes with the price of having the damage spread out over a LONGER duration. Sure i can get full damage on a IS mech 200m further out than him. But only if he stands there and lets me get the entire duration off. Simply moving like normal causes the total damage to spread out worse than any IS beam does which naturally 'balances' that extra range out. If a IS mech gets CT Cored by a Dire Wolf mounting 4ERLL's at 900m (again pre-nerf range) does this man the CERLL's are OP?. No.. it just means the IS mech was an idiot for standing still that long.

If you KNOW your enemy has a longer reach than you, then close the distance as fast as you can so that longer reach is negated. On the maps with wide open spaces (such as the forest map with the broken ship, the First of the two volcano maps, and even the Snow-covered city map) I was constantly seeing IS mech's trying to engage Clan mech's at near max-ranges. and most of the time, they'd lose out on that. Again, is this because the Clan weapons were OP? No... its simply a case of the IS mech's NOT closing the gap to negate that slight advantage in range so that their shorter duration and quicker-refiring weapons could naturally counter that extra bit of damage that the Clan weapon has (as in closer-ranges the extra range is no-longer a factor).

3.) Clans can carry more firepower than me! Ok... simple answer to that is start to learn how to use Flamers. (no i am NOT kidding, i am being completely serious here). if you KNOW you are going to be facing off against Clan mech's, and you are in a IS mech that is decently fast, Start thinking as a TEAM member instead of a Lone-Wolf, and carry 1-2 flamers. My Wolverine has a flamer in its head-slot (the one slot plenty of people leave empty of weapons on nearly eveyr mech). My Hunchback has a Flamer in its head-slot as well, and My Thunderbolt has a flamer in one of its ST energy slots. Hell, even my LBX40 Direwolf has 2 flamers on it, and its the sole-reason why i killed an Atlas one day.

Clan Mech's who have pilots that max out their loadout with energy weapons will be running Hot. There's no way around that. The initial 'stats' on clan mech's saw to that (and each and every nerf since then is making it even worse). Not only do the weapons have higher heat, but the longer duration also means that their built up heat will take longer to START dropping down (as the heat you generate dosnt start to lower till AFTER the weapons stop firing. So.. longer duration means longer time spent with high heat). This means that Clan Mech's are much more vulnerable to Flamers. Sure, your speedy little Locust with 5 SPL's might not be able to kill a Timberwolf without you being a really, really, good light pilot. But take two of those SPL's off, and toss on a pair of Flamers, and you'll be able to shut down nearly any Clan energy-boat so that your buddies with the bigger guns can kill it with impunity.

4.) Learn what to shoot at. The standard "I Win" feature of MWO, due to the way they modeled their FPS element, is to point at, and shoot, the CT of the enemy Mech. Kill the CT, you kill the mech. And with all weapons (excluding missiles) hitting exactly were you point, that's child's-play to do. This works well against nearly all IS mech's, because a lot of them carry weapons both on their arms, and their ST/CT's. Their weapons are pretty much scattered around the entire mech.

With Clan's though. Most of their firepower are in their arms. Timber Wolfs, Dire Wolfs, Kitfoxes, Nova's, Thor's, Stormcrows... ALL of them carry the vast majority of their loadouts on their arms. This is the single biggest 'disadvantage' to Clan Mech's that almost all of the "Clan Mech's are OP!" crowd never thinks about. Blow off one of the "Ears" on a Timberwolf that is carrying Missile Launchers, and you've just taken away 1/2 of his weapons (as it also removes the arm). And i'll guarantee you'll destroy that ST before you ever get threw the CT. Blow off the Arm of a pure "Prime" Direwolf, and he's lost 1/2 of his weapons. Same for a Nova.

How about IS?.. Well.. blow off the left arm on a Centurian, and he's still got all of his weapons. Blow off the 'ear' on a Stalker, and he's still likely got 3/4 of his weapons. Atlas? blow an arm off, he's still goth both ST's + the other arm fully armed. Even my Thunderbolt could lose his LBX10+MG on the right arm, and ive still got the Flamer + MPL's on my Side Torso, + the missles left.

Sure Clan's can 'carry' more weapons, but those extra weapons are easier to remove.. You just need to stop with the "Shoot the CT!" i-win mentality when facing them.


So-Far, every 'nerf' ive seen PGI do to Clan's has seemed to be a direct result of people complaining that the Clan Mech they fought killed them. The Clan mech they fought "had 4x the energy weapons they had!" Or that the Clan side of a PTS Clan vs IS event rolled over the IS group's in 12-0 matches. Its as if PGI is basing their 'this needs nerfed!' changes over what the 'results' of matches are, and not what is actually happening IN those matches (the points i listed up above), be it a PTS Clan vs IS event, or general every-day puging on Live.

Of the changes that have been made, about the only ones i agree with were that the CERLL's needed a 'slight' duration increase (the 2.0 one was just stupidly heavy-handed and made CLPL's almost 2x better to use than CERLL's) And the reduction to ranges that are in the works for Clan weapons to 'balance out' the bonuses that the new lvl 3-5 modules can give (as not doing so would just make the weapons stupidly op'd with a lvl5 range module equipped). But.. its a bit ironic, that they dont seem to be doing the same to the IS weapons. Meaning that with a Lv5 mod, some of those IS weapons may end up being even 'more' powerfull than the Clan varient with a lv5 mod. Negating any slight advantage damage/rage wise it had previously.

Is the 'real' reason people feel Clan's are OP a design issue? or is it simply that people who use IS mech's cant seem to change their tactics when facing Clan mech's and call "Its OP!" when they fail after using those same tactics they'd use against another IS mech.

In all honesty, I believe the fact that we DONT have an IS vs Clan battle option on Live is what is behind the Majority of the "Clans are OP!" chanting. As in order to face a Clan mech with an IS one, you need: 1) different tactics. 2) slightly different loadouts geared to take advantage of/counter the quirks of Clan Mech's.

What have you guys noticed during gameplay that supposedly makes Clan Mech's OP?

Again, leave the stats out of it. (ie. CERLL has damage of X while my ISERLL has a damage of X)... Lets focus on the 'game as a whole' not the spreadsheet wars people try to use to justify their balance complaints

Meh... wall of text full of bullsh!t.

Lazor burn time...lol... dude do you actually have any clan mech? CERMLs more than fine, CLPLs are just awesome to rain damage into everything, yap CMPLs a bit weird but no one uses them cause CERMLs are way out better. You cry about Clan-AutoCannons? Sigh. Than you are just a random nube. C-UACs and C-ACs are more than fine, yap, damage is a bit prolonged but... enemy got no chance to responde properly. Due huge screen shake, headache and butt hurt they massively brought to the terget. Reading this sh!t you wrote it's like a having those "period days" occuring suddenly.
Actually as more CERMLs are fired simultaneously as more critical damage target gets, and more chance that enemy will boil inside his cockpit. Just because huge number of players do not know how to use Nova-PRIME build it does not means it bad. I personaly got every battle 2-4 victims taken dispite how my team does. And all that efficiency just because of prolonged CERMLs burn time.

Clans are OP, my jedi NOVA-PRIME proves it many times. But nerfing them is wrong, instead of nerfing clans just need to buff a bit IS.
Be sides... where is SuperNova and the rest Clans/IS mechs yo???

EDIT: ...using flamers are just POOR.

REQUEST LOCK ON THIS USELESS THREAD

Edited by EboneezeeR, 30 August 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Roland]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

I said make USE of flamers. Useing them in conjunction with everything else mentioned, and you will see a difference.

Flamers are terribad weapons.

[Mcgral18]

Roland, on 30 August 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Flamers are terribad weapons.

They are a slightly less effective machine gun, that generates exponential heat, with less range, and weigh twice as much.

Yep. They don't have a CoF, at least.

Edited by Mcgral18, 30 August 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[TLBFestus]

Interesting read, but you present some of your argument as facts, ie.;

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

"Ive participated in both of the Clan vs IS PTS runs, and ive played plenty of regular play with Clan and IS mixed matches. Not once have i ever seen a instance were an IS mech was simply rolled over by a Clan mech of equal weight class (ie Jagger vs Timber, or Atlas vs Dire Wolf) "

"What i have noticed though in the PTS"

"So-Far, every 'nerf' ive seen PGI do to Clan's has seemed to be a direct result of people complaining that the Clan Mech they fought killed them."

These are not facts, they are opinions, at best they are observations of one individual. You could line up 20 more pilots of Clan Mechs who make similar statements, and I (to be devils advocate) could line up the same number of opinions to counter yours.

Unfortunately "numbers" count. Be it DPS, FLD, win:loss ratio, or what ever. Properly used they tell a story and right now, despite your observations, the evidence points to a disparity between Clan and IS mechs.

I know, there SHOULD be a disparity. I agree with this. The problem is how they are going to manage it in a way that keeps the gameplay interesting for the IS side. A 9:1 win rate just isn't going to fly, and IMHO the arguments about "vets" versus noobs, and the others used when this statistic came out can only account for enough to bring it to a 7-3 w/l maybe a 6-4 at best (please note I said "opinion" not fact)

My personal opinion is they should find a way to really test the 10 vs 12 option as it fits lore, and it might be enough to "balance" the teams, if not individuals. For some reason that I don't understand it's evidently "very" difficult to set this up, but Id sure like to see it used as one way to balance the matches.

Edited by TLBFestus, 30 August 2014 - 04:42 PM.

[Scratx]

I agree and have noted before that clan mechs in general can cooperate far better with each other because of the similar speeds they attain. That, IMO, is likely half of the answer on why Clans wipe the floor with IS teams. XL engines that act more like standard engines probably are the other half.

Honestly, the clan weapons aren't that much better at all... the only clan weapons that can be argued to be downright better overall is the lasers, SRMs and Gauss. UACs have burst fire, which sharply inhibit effectiveness against anything that actually is moving/torso twisting. Lasers' main saving grace is the longer reach and damage, but they are also (or will be) hotter and have longer burning times. LRMs stream-fire, which culls their effectiveness quite a bit too. Streaks... almost nobody uses them due to lolcooldown. And only the lowly Kit Fox has that magic jesus box called ECM. And did I mention you often have to sacrifice good hardpoints if you want AMS on that clan mech?

The one thing that really annoys me about the nerf clans movement is how they focus so much on the spreadsheets detailing stats so much and don't do what the OP did/tried to do... see what actually happens.

Seriously, does PGI have to nerf clans until they're reduced to throwing nerf darts before those people are happy?

[EboneezeeR]

The major problem is when PGI nerfs clan thay do same to the IS, and for IS any change even of those +0,5 sec. duration or another 50-150 metres of effective fire range(not a full range) without increasing damage is crucial and affects IS so bloody hard that some weapons actually went out of use. For exsample SPLs and LPLs, mostly dispite heat penalty all LL's where replaced to ERLLs. ERPPC's due to heat issue to simple PPC's just trying to avoid contact less than on 90 metres range where PPC got "blind damage zone". So now, when PGI nerfed ERLL's people goes LRMs and ballistic. And dispite that fact that IS AC's bring damage in one piece they are not so distractive as C-AC's or C-U-AC's when fired.

Edited by EboneezeeR, 30 August 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

TLBFestus, on 30 August 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Unfortunately "numbers" count. Be it DPS, FLD, win:loss ratio, or what ever. Properly used they tell a story and right now, despite your observations, the evidence points to a disparity between Clan and IS mechs.

Thats the thing though. If you look at the numbers for the Clan ERLL, ERML, ERSL vs the IS ERLL, ML, SL, (and i just did this myself to make sure im not just shooting smoke.) The 'Number' difference between the damage Clan Lasers do, vs IS beams is 1 point of damage or LESS in terms of dps. And the IS ERLL can be fired twice, before the Clan equivalent has even finished its first cool-down.

Meaning in 'practice' (that being, In-game), that 9 point IS ERLL has done 18 damage, and is starting his 'second' cool-down, in the time it took the Clan to do 11.3 and get to the point he can shoot again. Yet the "Clans are Overpowered Crowd" dosnt see that, all they see is "Clan ERLL does 11.3 Damage while i only do 9! its overpowered!".

The 'only' advantage that even makes any difference between Clan and IS, is the extra range, and even that's only useful if the IS mech (or enemy Clan mech) is nice enough to stand still for the entire duration and not turn any.

And that is with the current build we have.

less than 1 single point of damage is the difference in damage if you go by 'numbers'. Yet if you look at the boards, almost everyone jumping on the "Clans are Overpowered!" band-wagon, are acting as if they are getting shot by weapons which do 30+ points of damage more than them. Which is why im trying to keep 'numbers and spreadsheets' out of this.

If you 'dont' look at the numbers, and instead look at what actually happens You'll see what i noted in the OP. Nearly everything the "Clans are OP" people are complaining about, generally result because their trying to fight Clan mech's the same way they'd fight an IS mech. They DONT close the Range down, they DONT aim for the arm that carrys 50% of the Clan's weapons, they DONT use flamers when in a brawl situation (and yes people can say flamers are pointless all they want, against an IS mech that might be true, but not against Clan, especially if they keep throwing these increased heat nerfs at them), they DONT stay together like the Clan mech's naturally do due to the closeness of their mech's speeds.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if we found out that in most instances were someone says they were 'in a fight one on one with a Timber Wolf and he obliterated me! their overpowered!'.. They were really in a 2 or 3 on one, and didn't realize there were 2 other Clans nearby shooting at him, while his entire IS teammates were scattered across 4 grids.

All of that is why i dont understand why nearly ever single patch we see lately includes a "Increased heat, Increased head-buildup, increased duration" for nearly every single clan weapon.

EboneezeeR, on 30 August 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

The major problem is when PGI nerfs clan thay do same to the IS, and for IS any change even of those +0,5 sec. duration or another 50-150 metres of effective fire range(not a full range) without increasing damage is crucial and affects IS so bloody hard that some weapons actually went out of use. For exsample SPLs and LPLs, mostly dispite heat penalty all LL's where replaced to ERLLs. ERPPC's due to heat issue to simple PPC's just trying to avoid contact less than on 90 metres range where PPC got "blind damage zone". So now, when PGI nerfed ERLL's people goes LRMs and ballistic. And dispite that fact that IS AC's bring damage in one piece they are not so distractive as C-AC's or C-U-AC's when fired.

The 'range' nerfs their going to introduce are not really 'nerfs' in most regards (be it IS or Clan). Looking 'beyond' the Changes, you'll see that they are really 'balancing' the weapon's against the Weapon Modules.

If they didnt reduce the Range of the weapons, but still introduced the Lv4-Lv5 weapon mods, You'd see SL's with the range of a unmodded LPL.

Edited by ShadowWard, 30 August 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[DAYLEET]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Ok.. Lets keep the 'numbers' out of this discussion and focus strictly on what we SEE in matches.

Lets throw facts out the window, let use what I think when i play a match.

Thanks, i did not need to read more.

Jason Parker, on 30 August 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'd like to add that in my view, at least in the beginning, a big drivig factor in the "Clans need nerfs" movement was envy.

Most who debated, as opposed to those who just said "NERF CLAN", owned clans and made it clear in their post, people like me, just because i dont show my masakari tag dont mean i dont own it.

The problem i saw was when the facts were given by PGI the good clanners, who had been telling everyone else to get better, could not sallow that their mech was plain better and it had nothing to do with their own performances and they went batshitloco.

Edited by DAYLEET, 30 August 2014 - 05:47 PM.

[SaltBeef]

They are still under recent range with the mods so it is nerf!

[Dirgez]

Wolfways, on 30 August 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Another problem for IS mechs that I see all the time is crap builds. Full customization seems to be an invitation to build some of the worst mechs possible. I cry when i see a Jagermech (very much an OP IS mech) with its AC's replaced by MG's and the player trying to stay at range only firing lasers

I see this a lot, and it makes me sad for my team. Like a jagermech with only a gauss rifle and a erppc... brawling with it and/or focusing on a jenner circling him.

[Gwydion Ward]

DAYLEET, on 30 August 2014 - 05:44 PM, said:

Lets throw facts out the window, let use what I think when i play a match.

Thanks, i did not need to read more.

Perhaps you should read more.. because if you look at those precious numbers.. all you see is:

Quote

The 'Number' difference between the damage Clan Lasers do, vs IS beams is 1 point of damage or LESS in terms of dps.

And that makes them.. overpowered.... how exactly?

SaltBeef, on 30 August 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

They are still under recent range with the mods so it is nerf!

Hmm i'll have to take a closer look at them later. As i said, i simply took them as a 'balancing the Modules' thing, so didnt look closely at the numbers.

Edited by ShadowWard, 30 August 2014 - 06:01 PM.