120 replies to this topic

[Rando Slim]

You know another REALLY big problem with all this? From everything I've picked up since I started playing and reading about the lore, and based on playing several thousand matches.....this game is just straight up set in the wrong time period to be balanced in a way that makes sense for modern video games. Like the concept of the clan invasion is really cool, but I really think the game would be better set in 3025 or so or after the clan invasion altogether I dunno maybe 3075 or something. Theres enough IS mechs and factional infighting that went on that you could have avoided these balancing problems and still given people community warfare.......just then it would be contained among the six factions (which btw is still plenty, most games stop at 3 factions). But its obviously too late for all that. I now adopt the mentality that I just don't care anymore, give me new maps, new game-modes, and fully fledged community warfare and I'll figure out some way to succeed in whatever weapon environment I'm in. If I can't then I take a break.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 31 August 2014 - 03:28 AM.

[Davegt27]

"Ive participated in both of the Clan vs IS PTS runs, and I’ve played plenty of regular play with Clan and IS mixed matches. Not once have I ever seen a instance were an IS Mech was simply rolled over by a Clan Mech of equal weight class (i.e. Jagger vs Timber, or Atlas vs Dire Wolf)"

I stopped reading right there
I just had a chance to try a TW and with it I lived

My Jager is a death machine my death that is (last Saturday I died 44 times in one day)

Is the TW overpowered heck no it’s just powered (if you show to some car race with a Vett and I show-
up in a VW I am not going to sit there and cry about it)

If you have a Jager and you see a DW run (you can’t run because you will get shot down)
Now with a TW if things get hot I can disengage and move

They have been nerfing the crap out of the clan mechs which sucks for all the people that spent money on them, I still might buy a TW and enjoy it before it gets nerfed further

[SaltBeef]

3060 would have been perfect and easier to balance inho. Let us warp to that time period. Quiaff?

[DAYLEET]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

Perhaps you should read more.. because if you look at those precious numbers.. all you see is:
The 'Number' difference between the damage Clan Lasers do, vs IS beams is 1 point of damage or LESS in terms of dps.

I was obviously talking about the numbers given to us by PGI when they told the clanners they were op and also my own. Numbers taken from practice. You DO understand that something in practice can be different than how it's supposed to be on papers? There is a thread where people posted their clan stats and i posted mine and everyone had better stats on clan mech. Everything about the clanners give them an advantage.

Why did you have to fish a technical stats that does no translate into practice?

[Gwydion Ward]

DAYLEET, on 31 August 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

I was obviously talking about the numbers given to us by PGI when they told the clanners they were op and also my own. Numbers taken from practice. You DO understand that something in practice can be different than how it's supposed to be on papers? There is a thread where people posted their clan stats and i posted mine and everyone had better stats on clan mech. Everything about the clanners give them an advantage.

Why did you have to fish a technical stats that does no translate into practice?

Ok.. so.. Playing around on Smurfy some.. Basically taking my preferred Clan builds, and making IS counterparts of them. (since everyone insists on trying to bring "numbers" and "Stats" into things...)

Timber - Catapult
Stormcrow - Hunchback
Kitfox - Raven

Kitfox:
CLAN XL ENGINE 180 10 HS 210 / 210
97.2 kph 106.9 kph
Firepower: 14.16 Dps: 4.07 (4.86) dps
Cool. Eff.: 76%

Raven:
XL ENGINE 215 10 HS 238 / 238
99.5 kph 109.5 kph
Firepower: 10.00 Dps: 2.35 (2.50) dps
Cool. Eff.: 94%

Hunchback:
XL ENGINE 235 11 HS 338 / 338
76.1 kph 83.8 kph
Firepower: 42.40 Dps: 3.15 (12.60) dps
Cool. Eff.: 25%

Stormcrow:
CLAN XL ENGINE 330 12 HS 370 / 370
97.2 kph 106.9 kph
Firepower: 47.80 Dps: 4.02 (12.97) dps
Cool. Eff.: 31%

Catapault:
XL ENGINE 290 13 HS 422 / 422
72.3 kph 79.5 kph
Firepower: 50.00 Dps: 4.15 (13.85) dps
Cool. Eff.: 30%

Timber:
CLAN XL ENGINE 375 17 HS 462 / 462
81.0 kph 89.1 kph
Firepower: 59.04 Dps: 7.96 (17.85) dps
Cool. Eff.: 36%


I couldn't make a counterpart for my Dire Wolf build (which is 2x LBX20, 4x MG, 2x ERLL.) or the 'meta'-build (dual Gass/PPC), but this wasn't due to lack of weight or available hard-points, i simply couldn't find an IS Assault that had room in its Ballistic slot areas (arm/ST) for 2 Gauss, and IS doesn't have a LBX-20.

Between the Timber and Cata, the only real difference is lack of MG's, and 1 less SPL. But then, blow the ear off the Cat, and he still has ALL of his beams. Blow the ear off my Timber, and ive lost 1/2 - 3/4 of mine. Difference in firepower is 9 (the highest difference in all of them), but that could be due to how its calculating the extra SLP + 3MG's.

Same with the Kitfox and Raven, only real difference is lack of MG's, and my Kitfox has a 3000 more AMS ammo for its 2 extra AMS. Difference in Firepower is only 4.

The Stormcrow and Hunchback i was able to copy over nearly identical to each other except for their speed (But clan mech's are suppose to be faster). With a difference in firepower of 4.

Except for the Stormcrow/Hunchback match-up, i pretty much matched speeds on all of the mech's. And the difference in Firepower is pretty much negligible if you take into account players missing each other and the fact that rarely do you see a 1 on 1 fight.

And while YES, i do know that XL's on IS mech's means its dead if you take out its ST.. but take the ST off ANY Clan mech, and he's lost 50% or MORE of his weapons. And as someone else in a previous post mentioned, Even with Clan Mech's, everyone always does the "Aim for the CT!!" i-win mechanic of MWO.

So... someone explain to me how any of the above Clan mech's are "massively overpowered and need immediate nerfs!!!" When matched up again a near identically built IS mech?

*eddited to fix links after removing bbcode on the smufy copy/past*

*** Edit 2 ***

One more quick thing. Armor. The Differences in Armor on all of those comparisons.. is 10 points or LESS part-for-part. (ie, CT to Ct, ST to ST). And the Raven actually has more armor than the Kitfox.

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[DAYLEET]

ShadowWard, on 31 August 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Ok.. so.. Playing around on Smurfy some..

Ok so you are a troll, thanks for clearing that up.

[Novakaine]

The solution is apparently to simple for PGI to introduce.
1. Leave Clan mechs un-nerfed they are suppose to be OP.
2. Implement a 12 IS vs. 10 Clan mech solution.
3. Pug matches leave those 12 vs. 12 mix and match.
4. Group matches 12 vs.10 no mixing and matching.

[Kutfroat]

ShadowWard, on 31 August 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Ok.. so.. Playing around on Smurfy some.. Basically taking my preferred Clan builds, and making IS counterparts of them. (since everyone insists on trying to bring "numbers" and "Stats" into things...)

Timber - Catapult
Stormcrow - Hunchback
Kitfox - Raven

Kitfox:
CLAN XL ENGINE 180 10 HS 210 / 210
97.2 kph 106.9 kph
Firepower: 14.16 Dps: 4.07 (4.86) dps
Cool. Eff.: 76%

Raven:
XL ENGINE 215 10 HS 238 / 238
99.5 kph 109.5 kph
Firepower: 10.00 Dps: 2.35 (2.50) dps
Cool. Eff.: 94%

Hunchback:
XL ENGINE 235 11 HS 338 / 338
76.1 kph 83.8 kph
Firepower: 42.40 Dps: 3.15 (12.60) dps
Cool. Eff.: 25%

Stormcrow:
CLAN XL ENGINE 330 12 HS 370 / 370
97.2 kph 106.9 kph
Firepower: 47.80 Dps: 4.02 (12.97) dps
Cool. Eff.: 31%

Catapault:
XL ENGINE 290 13 HS 422 / 422
72.3 kph 79.5 kph
Firepower: 50.00 Dps: 4.15 (13.85) dps
Cool. Eff.: 30%

Timber:
CLAN XL ENGINE 375 17 HS 462 / 462
81.0 kph 89.1 kph
Firepower: 59.04 Dps: 7.96 (17.85) dps
Cool. Eff.: 36%


I couldn't make a counterpart for my Dire Wolf build (which is 2x LBX20, 4x MG, 2x ERLL.) or the 'meta'-build (dual Gass/PPC), but this wasn't due to lack of weight or available hard-points, i simply couldn't find an IS Assault that had room in its Ballistic slot areas (arm/ST) for 2 Gauss, and IS doesn't have a LBX-20.

Between the Timber and Cata, the only real difference is lack of MG's, and 1 less SPL. But then, blow the ear off the Cat, and he still has ALL of his beams. Blow the ear off my Timber, and ive lost 1/2 - 3/4 of mine. Difference in firepower is 9 (the highest difference in all of them), but that could be due to how its calculating the extra SLP + 3MG's.

Same with the Kitfox and Raven, only real difference is lack of MG's, and my Kitfox has a 3000 more AMS ammo for its 2 extra AMS. Difference in Firepower is only 4.

The Stormcrow and Hunchback i was able to copy over nearly identical to each other except for their speed (But clan mech's are suppose to be faster). With a difference in firepower of 4.

Except for the Stormcrow/Hunchback match-up, i pretty much matched speeds on all of the mech's. And the difference in Firepower is pretty much negligible if you take into account players missing each other and the fact that rarely do you see a 1 on 1 fight.

And while YES, i do know that XL's on IS mech's means its dead if you take out its ST.. but take the ST off ANY Clan mech, and he's lost 50% or MORE of his weapons. And as someone else in a previous post mentioned, Even with Clan Mech's, everyone always does the "Aim for the CT!!" i-win mechanic of MWO.

So... someone explain to me how any of the above Clan mech's are "massively overpowered and need immediate nerfs!!!" When matched up again a near identically built IS mech?

*eddited to fix links after removing bbcode on the smufy copy/past*

lose a side torso in the clan mechs -> fight on with still 50% firepower left
lose a side torso in the IS mechs -> dead

so try similar builds in firepower with standard engines pls to get similar surviveability.

besides, when the IS mechs get into effective range, they most likely will have yellow and/or orange sections. because even if the damage of the c- erlarge and medium lasers is spread, it just stacks up by the numbers of them you get shot with. and most tw dont use lrms...so no ears to shoot at. and your timberwolf build is significantly cooler than the catapult and is still 10km/h faster (but you also compard a 65 ton mech with a 75 ton mech to begin with).

Edited by Kutfroat, 31 August 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Gwydion Ward]

DAYLEET, on 31 August 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Ok so you are a troll, thanks for clearing that up.

How is doing just what you want (bringing numbers into things) Trolling?

[Gwydion Ward]

Kutfroat, on 31 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

lose a side torso in the clan mechs -> fight on with still 50% firepower left
lose a side torso in the IS mechs -> dead

so try similar builds in firepower with standard engines pls to get similar surviveability.

besides, when the IS mechs get into effective range, they most likely will have yellow and/or orange sections. because even if the damage of the c- erlarge and medium lasers is spread, it just stacks up by the numbers of them you get shot with. and most tw dont use lrms...so no ears to shoot at. and your timberwolf build is significantly cooler than the catapult.

The Raven is also significantly cooler than my Kitfox.

Again, i brought up the "Lose a ST in Clan and continue to fight" deal before. And what was the reply?

This:

Pacifist, on 30 August 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Let's look at the front of the Timberwolf. Arm 48, Torso 50, Center 74. Yes I can destroy a torso or arm faster than the center. However that just means I am still being shot by the rest of the Timber wolf while tearing through another 50 armor before getting to the tender bits. That's 100 points of side torso armor before it's dead or in case I shoot the arms 170 to 200 before I finaly kill it.

The center is still the quickest way. People have been killing IS for years and know the fastest way to kill them. However people have been telling the IS to strip the arms/torso's of the clanners so the IS have been spreading their fire from one side of the mech to the other. The difference in Clan XL survivability is a ridiculous advantage for the Clans.

To kill a Timberwolf with XL by side torso is 100 points of armor + internals.
To kill an Orion with XL by side torso is 44 armor + internals.

If the "Clans are OP" crowed are going to keep going back and forth over things

ie: shooting the CT is still quicker to kill a Clan, but if we carry XL as IS we'll have our ST shotout, even though Shooting the CT is 'still' the preferred method of killing even an IS mech.

You'll never actually 'counter' anything brought up against your arguments.

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[DAYLEET]

ShadowWard, on 31 August 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

How is doing just what you want (bringing numbers into things) Trolling?

Told you already, Theories does not equal practice, now use those loadout on those mech and try them, assuming you own them at all...

Let me quote someone

“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”
― Albert Einstein

[Mcgral18]

ShadowWard, on 31 August 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

How is doing just what you want (bringing numbers into things) Trolling?

They are pretty terrible builds, to be honest.

It doesn't seem like you're taking it seriously.

[Gwydion Ward]

DAYLEET, on 31 August 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

Told you already, Theories does not equal practice, now use those loadout on those mech and try them, assuming you own them at all...

Let me quote someone

“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”
― Albert Einstein

So... With that comparison, Numbers are 'theory'.. and Practice is 'fact' eh?

What did i Give as practice/gameplay 'Fact' in my original post?.. Pure, in-game, outcomes. No numbers Theory. Pure practice/gameplay fact.

And everyone who constantly says Clans are OP kept bringing up numbers theory.

I switch over to their game of numbers theory. And now i'm the one not giving practice/gameplay fact ?

Make up your mind which footing you want to discuss this on.

As for owning the Mech's. I own all but the Stormcrow and the IS mech's. Next time we have a PTS i'll pick up all the IS ones and make those copies if you'd like.

Mcgral18, on 31 August 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

They are pretty terrible builds, to be honest.

It doesn't seem like you're taking it seriously.

They work well for me sofar *shrugs* No two clan mechs are going to be identical No 2 IS mech's are going to be identical.. Thats why we have hardpoints. Im just doing my best to show direct head-to-head comparisons using IS vs Clan parts. And when i do so, i pretty much come up with near identical builds in terms of damage, firepower, speed.... and the only real difference is the 'dreaded' CT issue with IS XL's. (Which people turn around and say "Killing the CT is still the preferred way to kill a Mech" ). and 10 points or less of armor difference.

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 31 August 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

They are pretty terrible builds, to be honest.

It doesn't seem like you're taking it seriously.

I see a Timberwolf with no JJs, but with 3 CSPL...
I see a Catapult with no JJs, but with 2 SPL...
I see a Stormcrow with 3 CSPL, and 2 C-ALRM5s...
I see a Hunchback with 2 SPL, and 2 ALRM5s..
I see a Kitfox with no JJs, but with 5.5 tons of AMS and BAP+ECM for some reason)...
I see a Raven with explodable legs and BAP+ECM.

Yes, I can see rational thought if you reside in the underhive.

[DjPush]

I think clan mechs are extremely powerful. Aren't they supposed to be? I do way more damage and get far more kills in my clan mechs than I do my IS mechs. I kinda like it that way though. It poses a challenge for me that I love to do. Instead of doing the Same old thing and fighting in the same mechs against an equally matched foe over and over again. I get in my IS mechs and give them a go. It is more difficult to get the damage and kills in a IS mech but it can be done. It is just harder to do. You have to come up with better strategies, change your builds and work as a team. As an IS fan and pilot. I DONT WANT A DARN THING CHANGED with the clan mechs.

Edited by DjPush, 31 August 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Deathlike, on 31 August 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I see a Timberwolf with no JJs, but with 3 CSPL...
I see a Catapult with no JJs, but with 2 SPL...
I see a Stormcrow with 3 CSPL, and 2 C-ALRM5s...
I see a Hunchback with 2 SPL, and 2 ALRM5s..
I see a Kitfox with no JJs, but with 5.5 tons of AMS and BAP+ECM for some reason)...
I see a Raven with explodable legs and BAP+ECM.

Yes, I can see rational thought if you reside in the underhive.

Hmm thought i had put AMS on the raven... lemme go look again.

Yup.. It has AMS as well.

As for where the Ammo is, you can put that anywere you feel like. i just tend to put mine in the legs.

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Gwydion Ward]

DjPush, on 31 August 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I think clan mechs are extremely powerful. Aren't they supposed to be? I do way more damage and get far more kills in my clan mechs than I do my IS mechs. I kinda like it that way though. It poses a challenge for me that I love to do. Instead of doing the Same old thing and fighting in the same mechs against an equally matched foe over and over again. I get in my IS mechs and give them a go. It is more difficult to get the damage and kills in a IS mech but it can be done. It is just harder to do. You have to come up with better strategies, change your builds and work as a team. As an IS fan and pilot. I DONT WANT A DARN THING CHANGED with the clan mechs.

Which is pretty much what i pointed out the IS pilots in the Clan vs IS matches were NOT doing, in my Original Post.

Yet what happens?.. Most of the people who want Clan's nerfed to the point that we might as well all be using IS Weapons only, replied back with 'numbers'.

In that "Clan's do more damage than me!" (which in the comparisons i made is vary little difference) or "Clan has more armor than me!" (which in my comparisons is only 10 armor or less funny enough). Or "clans are faster than me!" (again, i nearly matched speeds in my comparisons). Or "Clans keep winning 12-0!!", (yet they dont want to hear that in those matches the IS mech's were scattered out across a 5grid-long line, while the Clan's were in a 'clump'.)

Yet... when i come out and match their 'numbers' game... suddenly im not looking at the 'tactics/strategy/working as a team" part of the matches.... "which make Clan better than IS, so they need to be nerfed".

*shrugs*

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Kutfroat]

ShadowWard, on 31 August 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

The Raven is also significantly cooler than my Kitfox.

Again, i brought up the "Lose a ST in Clan and continue to fight" deal before. And what was the reply?

This:


If the "Clans are OP" crowed are going to keep going back and forth over things

ie: shooting the CT is still quicker to kill a Clan, but if we carry XL as IS we'll have our ST shotout, even though Shooting the CT is 'still' the preferred method of killing even an IS mech.

You'll never actually 'counter' anything brought up against your arguments.

i don´t know, but it think it´s quite a difference if a mech is still fighting with 50% firepower at full speed - but still with respectable firepower, or if it´s straight out destroyed when losing a sidetorso...

so to get the same surviveability, you have to sacrafice a significant amount of firepower or speed, but moving at 60kmh in a 75 ton IS mech to have similar firepower as a timberwolf is for most players not an option, because going slow (and turning slow) also lowers surviveability...and makes getting into brawling range even harder...

[Gwydion Ward]

Kutfroat, on 31 August 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

i don´t know, but it think it´s quite a difference if a mech is still fighting with 50% firepower at full speed - but still with respectable firepower, or if it´s straight out destroyed when losing a sidetorso...

so to get the same surviveability, you have to sacrafice a significant amount of firepower or speed, but moving at 60kmh in a 75 ton IS mech to have similar firepower as a timberwolf is for most players not an option, because going slow (and turning slow) also lowers surviveability...and makes getting into brawling range even harder...

So then tweak how the loss of a ST effects a Clan mech. Make them lose speed as if they'd been legged (or a similar speed decrease), increase the heat build up if they lose a ST (rather than constantly making the weapons themselves hotter and hotter)

Dont sit there and nerf the weapons over and over until we reach the point that firing more than 2 ERSL's will = 50% heat.

The only real "valid" complaint IS has over Clan IS the XL engine/ST thing (but even that loses 'some' of its air when everyone constantly says that killing the CT is still the way to go against any mech, IS or Clan) the 'numbers' they try to bring up are already close to balanced, the 'armor' they bring up is almost negligible, the 'speed' they bring up can be matched.... its ONLY the CT that gives the Clans any 'real' advantage over the IS mech's in a mech-to-mech match.

Yet PGI hasnt touched the Clan ST at all. Instead they are constantly nerfing the weapons over and over again.

Edited by ShadowWard, 31 August 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

ShadowWard, on 30 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

2.) Clan weapons (pre nerfing to death) have a longer reach. Is this a "Clan is OP!" thing? Not really, because that longer reach comes with the price of having the damage spread out over a LONGER duration. Sure i can get full damage on a IS mech 200m further out than him. But only if he stands there and lets me get the entire duration off. Simply moving like normal causes the total damage to spread out worse than any IS beam does which naturally 'balances' that extra range out. If a IS mech gets CT Cored by a Dire Wolf mounting 4ERLL's at 900m (again pre-nerf range) does this man the CERLL's are OP?. No.. it just means the IS mech was an idiot for standing still that long.

If you KNOW your enemy has a longer reach than you, then close the distance as fast as you can so that longer reach is negated. On the maps with wide open spaces (such as the forest map with the broken ship, the First of the two volcano maps, and even the Snow-covered city map) I was constantly seeing IS mech's trying to engage Clan mech's at near max-ranges. and most of the time, they'd lose out on that. Again, is this because the Clan weapons were OP? No... its simply a case of the IS mech's NOT closing the gap to negate that slight advantage in range so that their shorter duration and quicker-refiring weapons could naturally counter that extra bit of damage that the Clan weapon has (as in closer-ranges the extra range is no-longer a factor).

I have to specifically disagree with this assertion. Clan range advantages come in two parts that are the primary issue in my mind with Clan v IS weapon balance.

1) Longer extreme range allows clan mechs to fire on IS mechs that actually can't shoot back at all. Calling out IS players for failing to close range before engaging is not fair to the IS players, who tend to be in mechs that are slower than their Clan counterparts due to the need to carry a standard engine. There are numerous situations where an IS mech will start getting hit by Clan long-range weapons before they've made it far enough from their spawn point to get into cover, and be unable to shoot back. It is infinitely frustrating, as in the case with LRMs, to be stuck in a situation where you're getting hit and there's nothing you can do about it. It also occurs when IS mechs have to cross open ground in order to advance to effective range.

Since the Clan mechs that make best use of these weapons are faster than their IS counterparts, you can also be stuck in a situation where your IS mech can't actually close with a cagey Clanner. The idea that all an IS pilot has to do is get closer does not account for a Clan pilot who knows what they're doing.

2) Clan weapons deal more damage at middle and long ranges due to their extended base range. ER medium lasers, in particular, have the same effective range as IS Large Lasers. So Clan mechs are able to unload more of their full damage potential at middle ranges as well, where IS mechs can't answer in volume of fire with large lasers or PPCs. So again, it's not proper to say that it's the fault of an IS player who is making poor decisions. I have a Stormcrow. I know I can pop out around a corner at 500m and unload 7 lasers into an IS assault who most likely has no more than a couple large lasers or PPCs to return fire with at that range. That's an engagement I can win handily every time, and there's nothing they can do about it because they have no hope of catching me if I move to a different spot.

An IS medium, by contrast, can't repeat that because its low-tonnage weapons have a much lower effective range and it will be taking at least equal fire in return. It's particularly lopsided when you consider that a Clan heavy or assault can punch out an IS medium attempting to do the same thing because they can, again, levy a greater portion of their firepower at middle range.

The damage over time mechanics make raw damage numbers balance against the fact that Clans have lower tonnage weapons and more compact equipment. It does not in any way account for the extended range, which combined with overly survivable clan XL engines offer an unequaled and frankly, unfair, advantage.