120 replies to this topic

[Gwydion Ward]

To start this out. Yes, i do play Clan Mech's. Currently a Timber, Dire Wolf, and a Kitfox. I was thinking of picking up the Thor when it went live, but after playing with it on the PTS... im not gonna pick it up. Couldn't find a build i liked (it honestly felt gimped), so may pick up the Stormcrow instead.

Now.. Every patch ive seen PGI do in regards to the Clan's, its nerf after nerf after nerf. They had nearly a year of internal testing time with these things, yet the moment they go live, all we see are nerfs added in again and again. My question is Why?

Ok.. Lets keep the 'numbers' out of this discussion and focus strictly on what we SEE in matches.

ie: Weapon Loadouts used, The ending of a Match were you see who's left alive, and who isnt. The TACTICS used durring those fights.

Ive participated in both of the Clan vs IS PTS runs, and ive played plenty of regular play with Clan and IS mixed matches. Not once have i ever seen a instance were an IS mech was simply rolled over by a Clan mech of equal weight class (ie Jagger vs Timber, or Atlas vs Dire Wolf) Sure there have been plenty of times ive seen a Timber bowl right over a Hunchback (ive done it myself), but thats not a "clan tech is op!" issue, its a Design fault on the Hunchback itself that the Clanner and ALL other pilots (be they in IS or Clan mech's) take advantage of. Shoot the hump, gimp the mech. There's also been plenty of times my Kitfox has run into an Atlas and gotten instantly obliterated. Again, not a "my Clan mech is nerfed to death!" issue, its simply bad luck on my part running up against something i had no hope of killing at that particular time.

What i have noticed though in the PTS when they do the IS vs Clan matches, and during Mixed matches on the live server are the following:

1.) Clan Mechs almost ALWAYS stay in a 'clump'. Giving them an advantage over the IS players that, in a totally opposite ploy, nearly always end up 'strung out' in a line. Is this a "Clans are OP" thing?. No.. the Design of Clan mech's in that we can NOT change our engines, means that we all move at relatively the same speed. This in itself causes almost all Clan mech's, be they a pair of Solo players or a full lance of players grouped together, to naturally group up into 1 unit. IS mech's though, have speeds that vary outrageously. You'll see Hunchbacks with max-sized XL engines nearly outrunning Jenner's with the smallest engine it can mount (so they can carry bigger weapons). Its this variety of Speeds that is the Double-edge Sword on IS mech's. It makes you more Flexible, but it ALSO makes it harder for you to 'naturally' work together. And in this Game, the team that is strung out in a line, 99% of the time, is the one that will lose the match.

*note* The above is the single biggest reason i saw for nearly All of the matches in which the Clans 12-0'd the IS mechs on PTS. It was never a case of us having more firepower, it was almost always a case of us simply having more people shooting at them at one time because their buddies were always strung out from each other.

2.) Clan weapons (pre nerfing to death) have a longer reach. Is this a "Clan is OP!" thing? Not really, because that longer reach comes with the price of having the damage spread out over a LONGER duration. Sure i can get full damage on a IS mech 200m further out than him. But only if he stands there and lets me get the entire duration off. Simply moving like normal causes the total damage to spread out worse than any IS beam does which naturally 'balances' that extra range out. If a IS mech gets CT Cored by a Dire Wolf mounting 4ERLL's at 900m (again pre-nerf range) does this man the CERLL's are OP?. No.. it just means the IS mech was an idiot for standing still that long.

If you KNOW your enemy has a longer reach than you, then close the distance as fast as you can so that longer reach is negated. On the maps with wide open spaces (such as the forest map with the broken ship, the First of the two volcano maps, and even the Snow-covered city map) I was constantly seeing IS mech's trying to engage Clan mech's at near max-ranges. and most of the time, they'd lose out on that. Again, is this because the Clan weapons were OP? No... its simply a case of the IS mech's NOT closing the gap to negate that slight advantage in range so that their shorter duration and quicker-refiring weapons could naturally counter that extra bit of damage that the Clan weapon has (as in closer-ranges the extra range is no-longer a factor).

3.) Clans can carry more firepower than me! Ok... simple answer to that is start to learn how to use Flamers. (no i am NOT kidding, i am being completely serious here). if you KNOW you are going to be facing off against Clan mech's, and you are in a IS mech that is decently fast, Start thinking as a TEAM member instead of a Lone-Wolf, and carry 1-2 flamers. My Wolverine has a flamer in its head-slot (the one slot plenty of people leave empty of weapons on nearly eveyr mech). My Hunchback has a Flamer in its head-slot as well, and My Thunderbolt has a flamer in one of its ST energy slots. Hell, even my LBX40 Direwolf has 2 flamers on it, and its the sole-reason why i killed an Atlas one day.

Clan Mech's who have pilots that max out their loadout with energy weapons will be running Hot. There's no way around that. The initial 'stats' on clan mech's saw to that (and each and every nerf since then is making it even worse). Not only do the weapons have higher heat, but the longer duration also means that their built up heat will take longer to START dropping down (as the heat you generate dosnt start to lower till AFTER the weapons stop firing. So.. longer duration means longer time spent with high heat). This means that Clan Mech's are much more vulnerable to Flamers. Sure, your speedy little Locust with 5 SPL's might not be able to kill a Timberwolf without you being a really, really, good light pilot. But take two of those SPL's off, and toss on a pair of Flamers, and you'll be able to shut down nearly any Clan energy-boat so that your buddies with the bigger guns can kill it with impunity.

4.) Learn what to shoot at. The standard "I Win" feature of MWO, due to the way they modeled their FPS element, is to point at, and shoot, the CT of the enemy Mech. Kill the CT, you kill the mech. And with all weapons (excluding missiles) hitting exactly were you point, that's child's-play to do. This works well against nearly all IS mech's, because a lot of them carry weapons both on their arms, and their ST/CT's. Their weapons are pretty much scattered around the entire mech.

With Clan's though. Most of their firepower are in their arms. Timber Wolfs, Dire Wolfs, Kitfoxes, Nova's, Thor's, Stormcrows... ALL of them carry the vast majority of their loadouts on their arms. This is the single biggest 'disadvantage' to Clan Mech's that almost all of the "Clan Mech's are OP!" crowd never thinks about. Blow off one of the "Ears" on a Timberwolf that is carrying Missile Launchers, and you've just taken away 1/2 of his weapons (as it also removes the arm). And i'll guarantee you'll destroy that ST before you ever get threw the CT. Blow off the Arm of a pure "Prime" Direwolf, and he's lost 1/2 of his weapons. Same for a Nova.

How about IS?.. Well.. blow off the left arm on a Centurian, and he's still got all of his weapons. Blow off the 'ear' on a Stalker, and he's still likely got 3/4 of his weapons. Atlas? blow an arm off, he's still goth both ST's + the other arm fully armed. Even my Thunderbolt could lose his LBX10+MG on the right arm, and ive still got the Flamer + MPL's on my Side Torso, + the missles left.

Sure Clan's can 'carry' more weapons, but those extra weapons are easier to remove.. You just need to stop with the "Shoot the CT!" i-win mentality when facing them.


So-Far, every 'nerf' ive seen PGI do to Clan's has seemed to be a direct result of people complaining that the Clan Mech they fought killed them. The Clan mech they fought "had 4x the energy weapons they had!" Or that the Clan side of a PTS Clan vs IS event rolled over the IS group's in 12-0 matches. Its as if PGI is basing their 'this needs nerfed!' changes over what the 'results' of matches are, and not what is actually happening IN those matches (the points i listed up above), be it a PTS Clan vs IS event, or general every-day puging on Live.

Of the changes that have been made, about the only ones i agree with were that the CERLL's needed a 'slight' duration increase (the 2.0 one was just stupidly heavy-handed and made CLPL's almost 2x better to use than CERLL's) And the reduction to ranges that are in the works for Clan weapons to 'balance out' the bonuses that the new lvl 3-5 modules can give (as not doing so would just make the weapons stupidly op'd with a lvl5 range module equipped). But.. its a bit ironic, that they dont seem to be doing the same to the IS weapons. Meaning that with a Lv5 mod, some of those IS weapons may end up being even 'more' powerfull than the Clan varient with a lv5 mod. Negating any slight advantage damage/rage wise it had previously.

Is the 'real' reason people feel Clan's are OP a design issue? or is it simply that people who use IS mech's cant seem to change their tactics when facing Clan mech's and call "Its OP!" when they fail after using those same tactics they'd use against another IS mech.

In all honesty, I believe the fact that we DONT have an IS vs Clan battle option on Live is what is behind the Majority of the "Clans are OP!" chanting. As in order to face a Clan mech with an IS one, you need: 1) different tactics. 2) slightly different loadouts geared to take advantage of/counter the quirks of Clan Mech's.

What have you guys noticed during gameplay that supposedly makes Clan Mech's OP?

Again, leave the stats out of it. (ie. CERLL has damage of X while my ISERLL has a damage of X)... Lets focus on the 'game as a whole' not the spreadsheet wars people try to use to justify their balance complaints

[Viges]

I bought and play Timber, Dire Wolf and Stormcrow. I don't care about all created threads and discussion, I think they are not OP, dont nerf them. Because of *wall of text*

[Roland]

Quote

So-Far, every 'nerf' ive seen PGI do to Clan's has seemed to be a direct result of people complaining that the Clan Mech they fought killed them.

A bunch of us actually own the clan mechs, and think they're overpowered because they feel overpowered when WE drive them.

Like the TWolf. I do far better in it than other mechs, and not because it miraculously makes me more skillful when I drive it.

[Zepster]

OMG someone with some sense! GREAT post man!

[Mcgral18]

Roland, on 30 August 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

A bunch of us actually own the clan mechs, and think they're overpowered because they feel overpowered when WE drive them.

Like the TWolf. I do far better in it than other mechs, and not because it miraculously makes me more skillful when I drive it.

So, Catapult or Victor treatment?

Or something entirely different, that won't affect the Badder, Cute Fox, Peave Dove or Suckonner.

[Chagatay]

Victor treatment is probably what the nerfinator will do. But you have sometime until it is released for the unwashed masses.

[Odins Fist]

Roland, on 30 August 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

A bunch of us actually own the clan mechs, and think they're overpowered because they feel overpowered when WE drive them.

Like the TWolf. I do far better in it than other mechs, and not because it miraculously makes me more skillful when I drive it.

What's supposed to happen is being changed for the "participation trophy" crowd.

Edited by Odins Fist, 30 August 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[xe N on]

Viges, on 30 August 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

I bought and play Timber, Dire Wolf and Stormcrow. I don't care about all created threads and discussion, I think they are not OP, dont nerf them. Because of *wall of text*

Well, nice summary. I stopped reading at using flamers ...

[Mcgral18]

xe N on, on 30 August 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Well, nice summary. I stopped reading at using flamers ...

There are 9 Flamers mentioned in the OP...and not one 4P as a troll build either.


This OP seems confused.

[xe N on]

Mcgral18, on 30 August 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

There are 9 Flamers mentioned in the OP...and not one 4P as a troll build either.


This OP seems confused.

4P 9x flamer build is funny, but Firestarter 8 flamer builds top that imho! I played one for some time - however, costs too much Cbill for coolshots

Edited by xe N on, 30 August 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[SaltBeef]

I use the adder flamer to great affect... it blinds , distracts, leads to my success in that mech. I was going to slap em back on the ember too! Only need 1 or 2.

Edited by SaltBeef, 30 August 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Gwydion Ward]

Roland, on 30 August 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

A bunch of us actually own the clan mechs, and think they're overpowered because they feel overpowered when WE drive them.

Like the TWolf. I do far better in it than other mechs, and not because it miraculously makes me more skillful when I drive it.

I feel more powerfull in mine as well.

But ive also been killed plenty of times while in it. Most of the time when i feel more powerfull in it, is when im 1 on 1 against another mech, and he's doing the usual "shoot the CT!" dance. while i use all the weapons i have to strip his own weapons from him. Or i use the speed advantage i might have to get behind him.. or any other number of 'tactical' things.

Ive never felt strait up more 'powerful' due to having more weapons than he might, if anything it makes it harder as i have to be a LOT more heat-conscious than he does.

[Zoid]

You say the clans run as a big deathball, but the way to beat them is to use flamers...which have a range of 90m.

I don't care how good you are or how fast your mech is, if you're attacking a group of 3+ clanners in a flamer, you're going to die quickly.

[Chrithu]

I can agree with all the OP wrote and I'd like to add that in my view, at least in the beginning, a big drivig factor in the "Clans need nerfs" movement was envy. It is quite debatable if hiding the "good" clan mechs (heavy+ weight class) behind a paywall this high and this long is a good idea.

I am just starting out playing clans as I have decided not to pay a single dollar of real money for them, just like phoenix (because their prices are just insane). So far I can say: Using my favorite and most successful IS mechs I haven't found a Clan Mech I'd call OP in the way that it was impossible to overcome. Sure you have to adapt to the threat they pose. Attacking a beast with double the alpha you can deal head on just is not smart.

And playing the Kit Fox and Nova I clearly see they have their advantages in terms of flexibility and room for potential damage compared to same weight IS mechs but they are far from overpowered and when all I know about lore and BT rules is true the clan mechs are meant to be like this. ANd instead of trying to find a balance by the easy and traditional ways I'd much rather see PGI think about the possibilities of asymmetric matchmaking and battle value based matchmaking that takes mech loadouts into account in addition to elo.

Edited by Jason Parker, 30 August 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Roland, on 30 August 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

A bunch of us actually own the clan mechs, and think they're overpowered because they feel overpowered when WE drive them.

All of them? My Kitfoxes and Novas don't feel very OP. On the other side, my IS lights love engaging Clan lights, and my Griffin doesn't blink when engaging Novas or Stormcrows. Heck, I don't hesitate to take on Summoners in my Griffin, because they're really not that scary.

Quote

Like the TWolf. I do far better in it than other mechs, and not because it miraculously makes me more skillful when I drive it.

Well, the TWolf is undoubtedly a freak (this has been discussed ad nauseum), and the DWolf can kill anyone in the blink of an eye, but these two seem to be the only Clan mechs you could accuse of being OP.

[SaltBeef]

Jason Parker, on 30 August 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

I can agree with all the OP wrote and I'd like to add that in my view, at least in the beginning, a big drivig factor in the "Clans need nerfs" movement was envy. It is quite debatable if hiding the "good" clan mechs (heavy+ weight class) behind a paywall this high and this long is a good idea.

spot on also Is tourney politics

[Gwydion Ward]

Zoid, on 30 August 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

You say the clans run as a big deathball, but the way to beat them is to use flamers...which have a range of 90m.

I don't care how good you are or how fast your mech is, if you're attacking a group of 3+ clanners in a flamer, you're going to die quickly.

At what point did i say the 'only' thing you need to do is use flamers?

I said make USE of flamers. Useing them in conjunction with everything else mentioned, and you will see a difference.

And as for taking on 3+ clanners. Taking on 3+ IS mech's with anything kills you. 3-1 odds with or in anything usually results in the 1 dying. So i fail to see the point in your pitiful attempt to troll =P

[Budor]

TLDR but i agree, they need nerfs.

[Thunder Lips Express]

i think some are op...i don't care much because i have them all, nerf them or don't. the only benefit i would have for them being nerfed would be giving me a reason to play some of my IS mechs.

[Livewyr]

I can see the nerfinator now: minus 50% maneuverability to Timberwolf = (I know you have an XL 375 engine in there and are paying the tonnage, but actually.. you have a 300... good luck!) A la, Victor.

Edited by Livewyr, 30 August 2014 - 03:23 PM.