23 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

These are the official plastic Battlemechs from the new starter boxes. Yup. That Jenner is HUGE.

Thought you guys might get a kick out of it.

[Carrie Harder]

TT is a game where hit locations are mostly determined by rolling 2D6 (unless using a Targeting Computer or something), and thus aiming is not really a factor. Scaling in TT was completely arbitrary and cosmetic, with no gameplay effect whatsoever.

MWO is a real time game where you aim your reticule at a target to hit them. Therefore, the size/shape of a target in MWO matters a lot, whereas geometry in TT was simply cosmetic. TT scaling in this game would pretty much shitstomp all of the light mechs into oblivion and would hurt most of the mediums as well.


The biggest scaling issue in MWO is just that mediums are quite a bit bigger than they need to be. They have significantly lower armor and firepower than a heavy mech, and therefore they should be scaled smaller accordingly (while still being bigger than lights of course) to compensate for their sacrifices. There are also maybe a few heavies that are a tad too fat, like the Catapult and Dragon. And then there's the Quickdraw...

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Battletech has the ugliest looking models of any tabletop game I have ever seen. And I've seen a fair few.

To anyone who's actually bought any of them, please accept my most heartfelt sympathies.

Also, this:

Spoiler

[Bishop Steiner]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

TT is a game where hit locations are mostly determined by rolling 2D6 (unless using a Targeting Computer or something), and thus aiming is not really a factor. Scaling in TT was completely arbitrary and cosmetic, with no gameplay effect whatsoever.

MWO is a real time game where you aim your reticule at a target to hit them. Therefore, the size/shape of a target in MWO matters a lot, whereas geometry in TT was simply cosmetic. TT scaling in this game would pretty much shitstomp all of the light mechs into oblivion and would hurt most of the mediums as well.


The biggest scaling issue in MWO is just that mediums are quite a bit bigger than they need to be. They have significantly lower armor and firepower than a heavy mech, and therefore they should be scaled smaller accordingly (while still being bigger than lights of course) to compensate for their sacrifices. There are also maybe a few heavies that are a tad too fat, like the Catapult and Dragon. And then there's the Quickdraw...

don't forget that ALL lights are massively smaller than they should be (well... verdict may be out on the Raven)

[Joseph Mallan]

Lynx7725, on 03 September 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

These are the official plastic Battlemechs from the new starter boxes. Yup. That Jenner is HUGE.

Thought you guys might get a kick out of it.

NEW starter box? They were giving out those same mechs 5-6 years ago! Maybe longer.

As for the Jenner. Its all Legs, A "chest" and a head. Though tall looking, it is proportional. Show it standing side by side with the Cicada in the back.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 September 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[Ultimax]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

The biggest scaling issue in MWO is just that mediums are quite a bit bigger than they need to be.

This is easily the biggest scaling problem in the game, and it hurts almost every medium mech (a few exceptions).

Most meds should be 10-20% reduced in overall size/volume (for gameplay purposes).

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 04 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Battletech has the ugliest looking models of any tabletop game I have ever seen. And I've seen a fair few.

To anyone who's actually bought any of them, please accept my most heartfelt sympathies.

Also, this:

Spoiler

really depended on the individual unit and the era and art it was based off of. Some were rather decent, actually







while there also, indeed some bad sculpts, what it really boils down to is how much bad "official art" FASA, then FanPro and even CGL have paid for. It's only recently they started investing in decent artists for their TROs. And even those guys can be wildly inconsistent on styles and scales.

I mean here is the original TRO art for the Spider

Look at the scale between the person and the mech...where would he even fit?

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 04 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Battletech has the ugliest looking models of any tabletop game I have ever seen. And I've seen a fair few.

To anyone who's actually bought any of them, please accept my most heartfelt sympathies.

Also, this:

Spoiler

Sorry you feel that way. I happily spent thousands collecting close to 300 of the CBT minis.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

really depended on the individual unit and the era and art it was based off of. Some were rather decent, actually







while there also, indeed some bad sculpts, what it really boils down to is how much bad "official art" FASA, then FanPro and even CGL have paid for. It's only recently they started investing in decent artists for their TROs. And even those guys can be wildly inconsistent on styles and scales.

I mean here is the original TRO art for the Spider

Look at the scale between the person and the mech...where would he even fit?

The scale may be off in the TRO but the mini

Looks good!

[Dolph Hoskins]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

really depended on the individual unit and the era and art it was based off of. Some were rather decent, actually







while there also, indeed some bad sculpts, what it really boils down to is how much bad "official art" FASA, then FanPro and even CGL have paid for. It's only recently they started investing in decent artists for their TROs. And even those guys can be wildly inconsistent on styles and scales.

I mean here is the original TRO art for the Spider

Look at the scale between the person and the mech...where would he even fit?

If a person can fit in an F1 car, a person could fit in that Spider.

[Logan Hawke]

I really really want to play the tabletop game but the minis are so damn terrible I can't bring myself to spend money on them. Even games workshops minis made a lot of positive progress from the eighties, despite their current business practice and meh rules, and I've sorta been spoiled rotten by how beautiful infinity's minis are.

God if there were battle tech minis based on MWO I'd spend so much money on them...

[Bishop Steiner]

The Ripper13, on 04 September 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

If a person can fit in an F1 car, a person could fit in that Spider.

the person is entirely in the head. ANd there has to room for a full suite of controls and life support and armor. 3 things (F1 car controls are pretty vestigial) not usually found in a race car. And no, even in the fetal position, the person in the picture would need to be squeezed, corpse in a trunk style to remotely come close. And would still likely not fit.

A living person who needed to move, and stay in the cockpit for potentially days at a time? Impossible.

even if one had nothing else in that space, it just dont work.

Other examples

Logan Hawke, on 04 September 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

I really really want to play the tabletop game but the minis are so damn terrible I can't bring myself to spend money on them. Even games workshops minis made a lot of positive progress from the eighties, despite their current business practice and meh rules, and I've sorta been spoiled rotten by how beautiful infinity's minis are.

God if there were battle tech minis based on MWO I'd spend so much money on them...

yeah, and redesigning a lot of the BT minis, and trying to get 3D prints made, in game scale. But it all starts with the art.

[Logan Hawke]

Yeah, I have access to a 3D printer and would love to get my hands on some designs, but I'm sorta certain that'd be illegal. And it'd be great if they started to integrate some of the mwo art direction into the game. I think it'd really give it a refreshing direction and finally pull it out of the eighties tar pit it seems to be in art-wise.

[Bishop Steiner]

Logan Hawke, on 04 September 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yeah, I have access to a 3D printer and would love to get my hands on some designs, but I'm sorta certain that'd be illegal. And it'd be great if they started to integrate some of the mwo art direction into the game. I think it'd really give it a refreshing direction and finally pull it out of the eighties tar pit it seems to be in art-wise.

only illegal to market and sell. To design and print your own is no more illegal than me making fan art based off of FASA's images. It's selling and profiting that I cannot do. (Which admittedly takes a lot of the impetus for many people to do it, away, but also is totally sensible.)

[Scratx]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

only illegal to market and sell. To design and print your own is no more illegal than me making fan art based off of FASA's images. It's selling and profiting that I cannot do. (Which admittedly takes a lot of the impetus for many people to do it, away, but also is totally sensible.)

It's also been done. I recall a Sarah's Jenner been 3D-printed...


Edit : Here it is. http://mwomercs.com/...-sarahs-jenner/

Edited by Scratx, 04 September 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[Carrie Harder]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

don't forget that ALL lights are massively smaller than they should be (well... verdict may be out on the Raven)

Define "should" be.

Excluding the shiny new C-Bill Kit Fox, lights have been one of the least used classes in MWO for the past several months. The queue numbers fluctuate from time to time of course, but the most common trend usually is both of the lower-end classes being underrepresented (barring the shiny new C-Bill Novas and Kit Foxes, which are currently pushing the numbers higher than their usual levels).

I honestly don't feel that light mechs need a nerf at this point. I certainly miss a lot (i.e. most) of my shots against them, but that's my problem for being a bad pilot who should probably feel bad rather than a problem with the targets I'm shooting at.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Ultimax]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Define "should" be.

Excluding the shiny new C-Bill Kit Fox, lights have been one of the least used classes in MWO for the past several months. The queue numbers fluctuate from time to time of course, but the most common trend usually is both of the lower-end classes being underrepresented (barring the shiny new C-Bill Novas and Kit Foxes, which are currently pushing the numbers higher than their usual levels).

I honestly don't feel that light mechs need a nerf at this point. I certainly miss a lot (i.e. most) of my shots against them, but that's my problem for being a bad pilot who should probably feel bad rather than a problem with the targets I'm shooting at.

My complaint isn't really with Light Mechs per say, they certainly live on the razor's edge.

My complaint is that it's pretty clear their combined traits of small size, speed and ability to spread damage all over the place (especially the JJ Lights, this allows for a greater effective total armor used in any given match) sometimes far surpasses the survivability of Medium mechs which by tonnage/armor should not be the case.

Many Heavy & Assault mechs suffer from this. Sure, you might have 400-600 total armor but how much of that can you always use if you are slow and massive? CT only has 80-110, so bad at spreading means bad total effective armor.

Outside of scaling mediums down a bit, so they aren't as easy to shoot,

I don't really have any solutions for the other issue where - some players are great at spreading damage (WAI), some mechs lend themselves to it much better and some mechs are not as good at it (not really balanced, but harder to pin down a solution).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 September 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 September 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

NEW starter box? They were giving out those same mechs 5-6 years ago! Maybe longer.

Nah, these are newer. Plastic is better, casting is better, I think they redid some of the models. Marked improvements over the TargetMech series they replaced.

[Carrie Harder]

Ultimatum X, on 04 September 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

My complaint isn't really with Light Mechs per say, they certainly live on the razor's edge.

My complaint is that it's pretty clear their combined traits of small size, speed and ability to spread damage all over the place (especially the JJ Lights) sometimes far surpasses the Medium mechs which by tonnage/armor should not be the case.

Many Heavy & Assault mechs suffer from this. Sure, you might have 400-600 total armor but how much of that can you always use if you are slow and massive? CT only has 80-110, so bad at spreading means bad total effective armor.

Outside of scaling mediums down a bit, so they aren't as easy to shoot,

I don't really have any solutions for the other issue where - some players are great at spreading damage (WAI), some mechs lend themselves to it much better and some mechs are not as good at it (not really balanced, but harder to pin down a solution).

Part of the issue with the good lights outperforming some mediums might be because most of the IS mediums aren't exactly that good in the first place. :\

However, in muh precious Shads and Griffs, I don't feel outclassed by lights at all unless outnumbered, in which case teamwork is OP.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 08:53 AM.

[Logan Hawke]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

only illegal to market and sell. To design and print your own is no more illegal than me making fan art based off of FASA's images. It's selling and profiting that I cannot do. (Which admittedly takes a lot of the impetus for many people to do it, away, but also is totally sensible.)

Problem is I'm the equivalent of a braindead monkey when it comes to computer design and that sort of thing. Too much math for me, so the only real option is either someone sharing the files freely as an art piece (I think that's legal?) or someone (illegally) selling them.

Scratx, on 04 September 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

It's also been done. I recall a Sarah's Jenner been 3D-printed...


Edit : Here it is. http://mwomercs.com/...-sarahs-jenner/

1) Damn that looks awesome
2) I crai evertim someone talks about that story. So touching.



Oh, and bishop, I think the image of the spider you linked is actually correctly scaled. I remember reading that the spider was designed small so the pilot was partially in the torso of the mech, which means it didn't have an ejection system and was dangerous to pilot.

[Bishop Steiner]

Logan Hawke, on 04 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Problem is I'm the equivalent of a braindead monkey when it comes to computer design and that sort of thing. Too much math for me, so the only real option is either someone sharing the files freely as an art piece (I think that's legal?) or someone (illegally) selling them.



1) Damn that looks awesome
2) I crai evertim someone talks about that story. So touching.



Oh, and bishop, I think the image of the spider you linked is actually correctly scaled. I remember reading that the spider was designed small so the pilot was partially in the torso of the mech, which means it didn't have an ejection system and was dangerous to pilot.

actually, the pilot is in the head, but has to egress through the torso.