61 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

For all the strikes and uav's I see around I think we should double the price on everything

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

So, for arguments sakes, a 100 ton mech mounting 10 DHS should cost more to retrofit than a 50 ton mech mounting 19?

Because you see, the number of heatsinks ARE the raw material. ALL have to have 10 base. So the base 10 should cost the same, PERIOD. Any extra should add to the refit cost, which, technically they do as part of their purchase price.

And again, basing Artemis off of a MEchs tonnage, instead of the Launcher, makes ZERO sense.

yes, BUT, thsoe heat sinks are a smaller size. The same reason a JJ for an assault mech weighs more than a JJ for a light mech.

I'm not talking about Artemis

To clarify
DHS
FF
Endo
I'm talking about upgrades that actually involve physical changes to the mech. Artemis is a guidance computer system.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

So, for arguments sakes, a 100 ton mech mounting 10 DHS should cost more to retrofit than a 50 ton mech mounting 19?

Because you see, the number of heatsinks ARE the raw material. ALL have to have 10 base. So the base 10 should cost the same, PERIOD. Any extra should add to the refit cost, which, technically they do as part of their purchase price.

And again, basing Artemis off of a MEchs tonnage, instead of the Launcher, makes ZERO sense.

Ok, let me put it this way then

Doing all of those modifications to a bus costs more than doing all of those modifications to a Kia. Not because of the vehicle's value, but because of the size and amount of work involved.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

yes, BUT, thsoe heat sinks are a smaller size. The same reason a JJ for an assault mech weighs more than a JJ for a light mech.



I'm not talking about Artemis



To clarify

DHS

FF

Endo

I'm talking about upgrades that actually involve physical changes to the mech. Artemis is a guidance computer system.





Ok, let me put it this way then



Doing all of those modifications to a bus costs more than doing all of those modifications to a Kia. Not because of the vehicle's value, but because of the size and amount of work involved.

those heat sinks are a smaller size? They appear to weigh one ton and take up 1 (SHS) or 3 (DHS) crits, no matter the class of mech?

And actually, doing the same work to a KIA might take more work, as Bus has plenty of spare room, whereas you may have to structurally adapt a KIA to make space for modifications. But whether on a Dodge Challenger or a Dodge ram, tossing a 6-71 Supercharger and attendant gear, costs about the same...aka the material bought.

Simply put, you have ONE item, Heat Sinks, you are trying to make an argument to complicate the game for, and the argument is not terribly strong. The two things your argument does fit for, Endo and Ferro already have scaling cost.

You just don't like admitting when maybe an idea is not as great as it first sounds, do you?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 September 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

those heat sinks are a smaller size? They appear to weigh one ton and take up 1 (SHS) or 3 (DHS) crits, no matter the class of mech?

omg dude, just quit, you're simply nitpicking. If you don't like that singular aspect of it but like the others the comment fully. Stop nitpicking though. I'm all up for discussion as it helps refine ideas

The heat sink itself may not be bigger (I guess I'd have to go back and check fluff on that) but the work involved in refitting a 100-ton mech is much more than a 20-ton mech. See my above reference. Now this is somethign I DO have quite an extensive knowledge of. I worked in a body shop and as a helicopter mechanic in the Marines.

Even if the components themselves are the exact same size, working on a larger vehicle is much more time and resources consuming. There's no way around it. If you don't like the idea, give reasons why other than fluff reasons though. Yes, the crit size and tonange for a heat sink is the same regardless of the mech it's going on, but the actual work to get it integrated into the mech itself is larger so if you really need a fluff reason for the why, there it is.

[Roughneck45]

This is getting entertaining

[Sandpit]

Roughneck45, on 04 September 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

This is getting entertaining

uhm I'm happy for you? Now would you mind adding something constructive?

[Bishop Steiner]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

omg dude, just quit, you're simply nitpicking. If you don't like that singular aspect of it but like the others the comment fully. Stop nitpicking though. I'm all up for discussion as it helps refine ideas

The heat sink itself may not be bigger (I guess I'd have to go back and check fluff on that) but the work involved in refitting a 100-ton mech is much more than a 20-ton mech. See my above reference. Now this is somethign I DO have quite an extensive knowledge of. I worked in a body shop and as a helicopter mechanic in the Marines.

Even if the components themselves are the exact same size, working on a larger vehicle is much more time and resources consuming. There's no way around it. If you don't like the idea, give reasons why other than fluff reasons though. Yes, the crit size and tonange for a heat sink is the same regardless of the mech it's going on, but the actual work to get it integrated into the mech itself is larger so if you really need a fluff reason for the why, there it is.

actually, if anything, you would be the one nitpicking? I'm simply picking apart your very weak argument, and very easily, I might add.

[Roughneck45]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

uhm I'm happy for you? Now would you mind adding something constructive?

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

The heat sink itself may not be bigger (I guess I'd have to go back and check fluff on that) but the work involved in refitting a 100-ton mech is much more than a 20-ton mech. See my above reference. Now this is somethign I DO have quite an extensive knowledge of.

How many mechs have you worked on? I still have my flea in the garage. Misplaced that damn MASC somewhere...

But yeah, the DHS tax sucks for new players. Less c-bill walls to be on a level playing field would be good, but I'd guess PGI would rather sell champion mechs.

Edited by Roughneck45, 04 September 2014 - 07:56 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

So, for arguments sakes, a 100 ton mech mounting 10 DHS should cost more to retrofit than a 50 ton mech mounting 19?

Because you see, the number of heatsinks ARE the raw material. ALL have to have 10 base. So the base 10 should cost the same, PERIOD. Any extra should add to the refit cost, which, technically they do as part of their purchase price.

I would consider the size of the mech is relative to the subsystem you are trying to implement on them. 10 HS is still mandatory on the mech, which implies 10 tons consumed for just the sole purpose of making the mech not overheat/explode for whatever the reason (and just the TT rule for it). How is applying 10 tons for replacing the cooling infrastructure not different between a 20 ton Locust, vs a 100 ton Atlas? Why would it actually cost $1.5m no matter what? We're simply talking about cooling, and I'm not even talking about much else.

You could argue that it's not real, or just assign to it "space magic" or "fake physics", but I'm more bothered by the financial implications... why would you pay for an upgrade that is literally the cost of the mech itself in the case of the Locust? That in itself makes little sense.

The engine at the very least is "interchangeable"... the DHS upgrade is not "interchangable" between mechs.. it's only for the variant you are applying it to (which amounts to virtually every mech you own).

There is a reason what the DHS upgrade has been labeled the "DHS tax"... regardless of the variant, you'll end up paying for it above anything else.

Quote

And again, basing Artemis off of a MEchs tonnage, instead of the Launcher, makes ZERO sense.

It's just an idea. Artemis is more optional for anything (although, I've very biased to them when it comes to SRMs, and a well known "bug"). I'm just kinda thinking out loud on that, and not taking that particularly serious.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:54 PM, said:

actually, if anything, you would be the one nitpicking? I'm simply picking apart your very weak argument, and very easily, I might add.

uhm no, no you're not, you've just said "it's the same size" to which I gave you a retort which would explain why it was still cheaper even if that's the case. I'm not going to entertain this though, either post something pertaining to the subject or just stop please

[Carrie Harder]

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 04 September 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

I would consider the size of the mech is relative to the subsystem you are trying to implement on them. 10 HS is still mandatory on the mech, which implies 10 tons consumed for just the sole purpose of making the mech not overheat/explode for whatever the reason (and just the TT rule for it). How is applying 10 tons for replacing the cooling infrastructure not different between a 20 ton Locust, vs a 100 ton Atlas? Why would it actually cost $1.5m no matter what? We're simply talking about cooling, and I'm not even talking about much else.

You could argue that it's not real, or just assign to it "space magic" or "fake physics", but I'm more bothered by the financial implications... why would you pay for an upgrade that is literally the cost of the mech itself in the case of the Locust? That in itself makes little sense.

The engine at the very least is "interchangeable"... the DHS upgrade is not "interchangable" between mechs.. it's only for the variant you are applying it to (which amounts to virtually every mech you own).

There is a reason what the DHS upgrade has been labeled the "DHS tax"... regardless of the variant, you'll end up paying for it above anything else.



It's just an idea. Artemis is more optional for anything (although, I've very biased to them when it comes to SRMs, and a well known "bug"). I'm just kinda thinking out loud on that, and not taking that particularly serious.

I think it would add a few elements to the game. One, it definitely makes those light mechs much more enticing if you can get them upgraded for less money. There's going to have to be SOME sort of economy that represents loss of equipment and such in CW, so this also begins to lay the groundwork for smaller "cheaper" mechs to be maintained

It also takes less material to make an Endo and FF upgrade to smaller mechs. That's just a matter of materials used if nothing else.

The Endo and FF are pretty self-explanatory in that aspect.

The DHS and SHS would represent less time spent by techs working on a smaller vehicle. A refit on an aircraft carrier takes more time than a refit on a u-boat even if all the components being used on both are the exact same szies and weight and cost.

Having it set up to represent that kind of undertaking could pave the way to allow for lights and mediums to be much more cost-effective overall for maintenance and such as well.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

2.3 million cbills for upgrading to endo and DHS

That doesn't sound like much but it actually costs more than some mechs. That means for some lights and mediums (and maybe a couple of heavies) you're paying more for an upgrade than you are for the mech itself.

I propose scaling the upgrade cost according to weight (or at least weight class) so that lighter mechs are able to be customized fro a smaller cost than an assault mech.

dude I dont get what your trying to get at. Endo on a light mech already cost less than what it cost to upgrade on a Basnhee.

As for double heatsinks, their are no variables to the product, DHS are the same for every mech so 1.5 million for cost would apply to lights as well as heavies.

Artgathan, on 04 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

Endo and Ferro do scale. I agree with making the rest scale as well though.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 04 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

dude I dont get what your trying to get at. Endo on a light mech already cost less than what it cost to upgrade on a Basnhee.

As for double heatsinks, their are no variables to the product, DHS are the same for every mech so 1.5 million for cost would apply to lights as well as heavies.

then read the other posts

[BLOOD WOLF]

Any in specific?

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

You just don't like admitting when maybe an idea is not as great as it first sounds, do you?

says the guy who has one other person in the thread agreeing with them while the rest like my idea?
gpclose dude

[Bishop Steiner]

BLOOD WOLF, on 04 September 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

dude I dont get what your trying to get at. Endo on a light mech already cost less than what it cost to upgrade on a Basnhee.

As for double heatsinks, their are no variables to the product, DHS are the same for every mech so 1.5 million for cost would apply to lights as well as heavies.

shhh! That makes too much sense, it makes Sandpit...er....sandy?

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

says the guy who has one other person in the thread agreeing with them while the rest like my idea?
gpclose dude

Oh wow, so this is a high school popularity contest now. Lol. GGclose.

When you start getting dozens to hundreds of people agreeing with you, get back to me with that.

Geez, it's like arguing with a teenager.

[BLOOD WOLF]

The advanced]Clan version is twice the size of a standard heat sink;Star League era double heat sinks and those later (re-)developed by the Inner Sphere are three times as bulky as a standard heat sink.----sarna for reference.[/color]

they were made that way, no way around it, so your out of luck getting the DHS to work in the way you want.


as for the Price of the DHS, since they only come in 1 size fits all, the price mimics the engineering.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:10 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Oh wow, so this is a high school popularity contest now. Lol. GGclose.

really?
ok...
have fun gl&gh
done with your personal attacks, please get on topic, not going to allow my thread to be derailed by personal attacks
please and thank you

BLOOD WOLF, on 04 September 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

as for the Price of the DHS, since they only come in 1 size fits all, the price mimics the engineering.

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

The DHS and SHS would represent less time spent by techs working on a smaller vehicle. A refit on an aircraft carrier takes more time than a refit on a u-boat even if all the components being used on both are the exact same sizes and weight and cost.

L2R please

[Koniving]

Carrie Harder, on 04 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

The question is, where to set the baseline?

50 tons.

It's the base line for engine prices and middle of the available assortment (technically 60 tons is but meh.)