61 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

BLOOD WOLF, on 04 September 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

The advanced]Clan version is twice the size of a standard heat sink;Star League era double heat sinks and those later (re-)developed by the Inner Sphere are three times as bulky as a standard heat sink.----sarna for reference.[/color]



they were made that way, no way around it, so your out of luck getting the DHS to work in the way you want.





as for the Price of the DHS, since they only come in 1 size fits all, the price mimics the engineering.

Pretty much, that. Though you gotta try "paste as plain text, bro".

Thing is, I have had plenty of ideas that initially, in my head, sounded great. But when thrown out and sounded out, didn't live u to the hype, as it were. Anyone who tries to think of ways to improve stuff does. The key is to be able and willing to recognize and admit it when that is the case. THIS is the case, in this instance.

The two things that should reasonably scale, already do. And technically, DHS cost does "scale" as the more you add, after the flat conversion fee, the more it costs. The scaling isn't the mass of the mech, but of the cooling system. a 10 ton cooling system, is a 10 ton cooling system.


If anything, it would be more difficult, and involve a HECK of a lot more modifying to fit a new 10 ton, cooling system into a 20 ton locust, than into a 100 ton Atlas.

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

really?

ok...

have fun gl&gh

done with your personal attacks, please get on topic, not going to allow my thread to be derailed by personal attacks

please and thank you







L2R please

only person making this into anything personal is you. You are the one getting upset because someone dares points out the flies in your ointment, and disagrees with you. If you don't want reasoned disagreement, then don't post in a public forum. Your inability to see anything other than your own personal PoV and Opinion is why I finally had to block you on Twitter.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 September 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 04 September 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

50 tons.

It's the base line for engine prices and middle of the available assortment (technically 60 tons is but meh.)

I could see that working, but I'd go with 60 as that sets the heavies and assaults apart.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

The key is to be able and willing to recognize and admit it when that is the case. THIS is the case, in this instance.

If you really feel that way then offer something more than "no" to help come up with ways that you feel WILL improve it and leave your high school insults at home.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

I could see that working, but I'd go with 60 as that sets the heavies and assaults apart.


If you really feel that way then offer something more than "no" to help come up with ways that you feel WILL improve it and leave your high school insults at home.

I already pointed out that the DHS really doesn't NEED any particular improvement. We are talking about mounting the identical tonnage and volume of equipment, whether it's a Locust or Atlas. Not the same as talking about the difference in running a new HVAC system in a 1500 sq ft house vs a 40 room Hotel.

You are the one trying to argue "space physics engineering2 to justify your point. Problem is, it doesn't actually work. At least Deathlike approaches it from the "play barrier" perspective. That I could give some credence too, but really the only way to truly overcome that would be to simply equip everything with DHS (since it is mandatory to compete) in the first place.

And since Endo and Ferro already scale, again this seems a rather moot idea.

At best, I would say the cost to convert a mech back and forth after should be drastically reduced, perhaps, but there really is no other merit to this idea.

[Koniving]

Since in campaign tabletop there is no actual cost in making the transition from SHS to DHS -- just however long it takes them to make the conversion in their actual wages and attach all the new heatsinks -- perhaps taking megamek and finding out the wages of one tech and 2 tech assists, their wages for X amount of time on a 50 or 60 ton mech for a baseline.

From there, test it on a 25 ton and a 75 ton (or 40 and 80 ton) mech and then normalize it between them.

[BLOOD WOLF]

"The DHS and SHS would represent less time spent by techs working on a smaller vehicle. A refit on an aircraft carrier takes more time than a refit on a u-boat even if all the components being used on both are the exact same sizes and weight and cost."

I dont see what that has do with anything. DHS do not scale down or up depending on the mech they are in.

Of course a refit on an aircraft carrier takes longer. Its is bigger and probably more complex; However DHS on a Heavy and DHS on a light are take up the same amount of space. One mech just has more space for more heat sinks than the other

Well bishop already explained it to death. Not much I can say.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

The two things that should reasonably scale, already do. And technically, DHS cost does "scale" as the more you add, after the flat conversion fee, the more it costs.

Arguing that the cost of DHS scales because additional DHS (past having the engine HS) costs more is a bit of a misdirection. A single DHS costs 12,000 C-Bills, or 0.8% of the cost of installing the DHS Upgrade in the first place. Even if you filled a mech with DHS (using an STD400 engine, you can fit 20 additional DHS), the most you'd increase the price by would be ~16%.

Edited by Artgathan, 04 September 2014 - 08:26 PM.

[ProtoformX]

For what it's worth, I agree with Bishop. Ferro and Endo obviously are different sizes and amounts of material per 'Mech. Since all 'Mechs use the same heatsinks, and the same number of "base" heatsinks(must use 10 minimum), it makes sense that every 'Mech would cost the same to upgrade. No, your real life experience has no barring here since we're talking about technology from a fiction based in the distant future.

Now if I remember right(and this is a hazy memory, mind you), the lore states that the base heatsinks are actually the shielding around the fusion reactor. This would explain the massive cost to upgrade that part to double dissipation. For all we know, all the reactors require the same size shield. Even if they don't, remember that the engine goes inside of this shield, so even if you mounted a 180 STD in your Jenner, the shield has to be big enough to handle a 300 XL size reactor, which is an Assault-class size engine.

[Roughneck45]

Maybe a mech XP option?

Wouldn't make much sense lore wise I suppose, but neither does the skill tree, and it would give players options if they wanted to save the c-bills for something else.

Edited by Roughneck45, 04 September 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[Sandpit]

Koniving, on 04 September 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Since in campaign tabletop there is no actual cost in making the transition from SHS to DHS -- just however long it takes them to make the conversion in their actual wages and attach all the new heatsinks -- perhaps taking megamek and finding out the wages of one tech and 2 tech assists, their wages for X amount of time on a 50 or 60 ton mech for a baseline.

From there, test it on a 25 ton and a 75 ton (or 40 and 80 ton) mech and then normalize it between them.

Tech fees could definitely be a way to separate the fees associated with the different weight classes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 04 September 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Since in campaign tabletop there is no actual cost in making the transition from SHS to DHS -- just however long it takes them to make the conversion in their actual wages and attach all the new heatsinks -- perhaps taking megamek and finding out the wages of one tech and 2 tech assists, their wages for X amount of time on a 50 or 60 ton mech for a baseline.



From there, test it on a 25 ton and a 75 ton (or 40 and 80 ton) mech and then normalize it between them.

and the cost of the new DHS. And the cost of disposing of the old, highly toxic SHS. ANd whatever attendant mdos would be there?


Also, if I recall, mods made outside a factory could cause all sorts of unsavory issues and malfunctions, so maybe we should add those as potential random quirks? If we want to get all "Table-toppy" and such, as it were?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

Pretty much, that. Though you gotta try "paste as plain text, bro".

Thing is, I have had plenty of ideas that initially, in my head, sounded great. But when thrown out and sounded out, didn't live u to the hype, as it were. Anyone who tries to think of ways to improve stuff does. The key is to be able and willing to recognize and admit it when that is the case. THIS is the case, in this instance.

The two things that should reasonably scale, already do. And technically, DHS cost does "scale" as the more you add, after the flat conversion fee, the more it costs. The scaling isn't the mass of the mech, but of the cooling system. a 10 ton cooling system, is a 10 ton cooling system.


If anything, it would be more difficult, and involve a HECK of a lot more modifying to fit a new 10 ton, cooling system into a 20 ton locust, than into a 100 ton Atlas.

The problem with that logic is two-fold.. and you should know full well why I went this route:

1) Cooling rules (heat scale, and I don't mean ghost heat) - specifically how DHS and its interaction with engines lower than 250. For any mech that cannot hold a 250 engine or bigger, it simply suffers from the mandatory building rule of 10 HS on every mech. While we could "throw away" or "ignore" said rule for smaller mechs (pretty much the Commando and Locust), it doesn't really justify the cost. The Commandos are energy+missile dependent... and a few variants of the Locust are also energy+missile dependent... so cooling is mandatory and yet lost by the nature of their design. That's not good.

2) Increasing the engine cap - simply put, we probably won't see the engine cap lifted as it's probably not profitable to do so. I'm not sure what I'd do with a 250XL Commando (let alone a 250XL Lolcust), but it would break the game as it were. At least the thought of giving the Locust a better survival ability (just pure speed) would be enough to justify its existence (although, Conquest doesn't get much love in the first place).

These things are not suffered by the 30-35 ton lights, but are pushed into the lower/lowest tier of Light mechs. Unless there are rules reworking how DHS function on them, it literally does not justify the 1.5m DHS cost that other mechs do. A pricing scale would help everyone in terms of the overall cost of upgrading... since DHS for all intents and purposes is practically mandatory. At the very least, you could scale down the DHS upgrade cost on the lower tier lights to at least half of the original DHS value. Then it wouldn't look so bad.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 September 2014 - 08:28 PM.

[Sandpit]

ProtoformX, on 04 September 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I agree with Bishop. Ferro and Endo obviously are different sizes and amounts of material per 'Mech. Since all 'Mechs use the same heatsinks, and the same number of "base" heatsinks(must use 10 minimum), it makes sense that every 'Mech would cost the same to upgrade. No, your real life experience has no barring here since we're talking about technology from a fiction based in the distant future.

Now if I remember right(and this is a hazy memory, mind you), the lore states that the base heatsinks are actually the shielding around the fusion reactor. This would explain the massive cost to upgrade that part to double dissipation. For all we know, all the reactors require the same size shield. Even if they don't, remember that the engine goes inside of this shield, so even if you mounted a 180 STD in your Jenner, the shield has to be big enough to handle a 300 XL size reactor, which is an Assault-class size engine.

yes but, like I mentioned earlier, if you need a fluff reason for it, that can easily be explained by tech fees associated with the work itself as opposed to the equipment size and cost.

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 04 September 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Arguing that the cost of DHS scales because additional DHS (past having the engine HS) costs more is a bit of a misdirection. A single DHS costs 12,000 C-Bills, or 0.8% of the cost of installing the DHS Upgrade in the first place. Even if you filled a mech with DHS (using an STD400 engine, you can fit 20 additional DHS), the most you'd increase the price by would be ~16%.

very true. Would you argue DHS should cost more then, to add even more play barrier? after all, the initial cost is the cost of the actual modifications to convert the mech. These aren't like RAM in a computer where you just swap sockets.

If a days play to convert a mech is going to ruin the game experience, then this is the wrong game for the person, probably. Because like ALL F2P games, there is nothing BUT grind.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Artgathan, on 04 September 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Arguing that the cost of DHS scales because additional DHS (past having the engine HS) costs more is a bit of a misdirection. A single DHS costs 12,000 C-Bills, or 0.8% of the cost of installing the DHS Upgrade in the first place. Even if you filled a mech with DHS (using an STD400 engine, you can fit 20 additional DHS), the most you'd increase the price by would be ~16%.

This

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

very true. Would you argue DHS should cost more then, to add even more play barrier? after all, the initial cost is the cost of the actual modifications to convert the mech. These aren't like RAM in a computer where you just swap sockets.

If a days play to convert a mech is going to ruin the game experience, then this is the wrong game for the person, probably. Because like ALL F2P games, there is nothing BUT grind.

and this.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Pretty much scaled, so now the question is, can we Force those dang engineers to lower their base installation fee of 1.5? they cant be working that hard.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[ProtoformX]

Sandpit, on 04 September 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

yes but, like I mentioned earlier, if you need a fluff reason for it, that can easily be explained by tech fees associated with the work itself as opposed to the equipment size and cost.

I suppose I don't understand your argument then. Sure, I want cheaper upgrades too, but it just doesn't make sense in this case. Fully explained by lore already.

[BLOOD WOLF]

ProtoformX, on 04 September 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

I suppose I don't understand your argument then. Sure, I want cheaper upgrades too, but it just doesn't make sense in this case. Fully explained by lore already.

The mix up is when you look at it. The cost of the item and the cost to install said item on your mech. retro-fitting a mech is a costly venture. That is why when you Buy an IS mech it comes with standard heat sinks, in accordance to its original price.

Now, Bishop mentioned the grind and i think that is also in relation to the cost.

A hunchback is 3,467,875 C-bills, roughly about, even in lore that price is without double heat sinks or endo-steel upgrades. It comes with out double heat sinks. Now ask yourself what would it cost you in the BT universe to take your hunchback and get it Retro-fitted with Endo and DHS?

Clans are a different story; However after examining it further and looking into the BT universe I get what sandpit is saying to a degree but it would still cost a tone more than Ferro-or endo

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 September 2014 - 08:56 PM.

[ProtoformX]

I'm curious, what does it cost in the BT Universe/TT to upgrade to DHS?

As I'm sitting here thinking about it, the only acceptable change to the system in my mind, would be to lower the upgrade cost across the board. Perhaps drop it to 1,000,000 or 800,000 even. That said, I doubt PGI would ever do that. They would need to refund me something like 50,000,000 c-bills for the difference on all of the DHS upgrades I've paid for, greatly reducing my grind.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 September 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

It'd be nice but we know PGI's too incompetent for that.

The issue is that DHS are mandatory for the way this game's heat system is designed.

Furthermore, a 1.5 million cbill tax to convert to DHS on a 20 ton mech that cost less than 2 million is pretty absurd, considering 1) how the mech barely has any real use and 2) if a mech has an engine lower than 250, the heatsinks required to make 10 DHS are going to be quite inferior.

Some examples:
All of these have 10 DHS.
250 engine (for comparison) : No unlocks. Cooling Rate : 2.00 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 50
Elites. Cooling Rate : 2.30 heat/sec . Heat Threshold : 60

125 engine No Unlocks: Cooling Rate : 1.70 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 47
125 engine Elites: Cooling Rate : 1.96 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 56.4
150 engine no unlocks: Cooling Rate : 1.20 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 42
150 engine elites: Cooling Rate : 1.38 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 50.4
175 engine no unlocks: Cooling Rate : 1.82 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 48.2.
175 engine elites: Cooling Rate : 2.09 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 57.84.
200 engine no unlocks Cooling Rate : 1.88 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 48.8.
200 engine elites: Cooling Rate : 2.16 heat/sec. Heat Threshold : 58.55999999999999.

Etc.

There is also the size. Converting space in a mech that is supposed to be smaller than a Tiger II tank (8 meters) shouldn't take as long as converting an Atlas. Though honestly the conversion somehow magically works for the engine and magically disappears when you put the engine in another mech.

I imagine we'd have more lights and mediums in the field if they weren't paying as much as Atlases for their DHS conversion.

Then again... I do think that above a set baseline (50 or 60 ton mechs), the price should increase for the conversion.

ProtoformX, on 04 September 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

I'm curious, what does it cost in the BT Universe/TT to upgrade to DHS?

As I'm sitting here thinking about it, the only acceptable change to the system in my mind, would be to lower the upgrade cost across the board. Perhaps drop it to 1,000,000 or 800,000 even. That said, I doubt PGI would ever do that. They would need to refund me something like 50,000,000 c-bills for the difference on all of the DHS upgrades I've paid for, greatly reducing my grind.

0 for the actual upgrade.

Just the normal wage of your techs for the time it takes to make the conversion (usually 2 weeks to 3 months depending on how many DHS they have to install and how many SHS they have to remove. 3 months is if you have the most incompetent tech with no assistants and a lot of bad work done).

[ProtoformX]

Koniving, on 04 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

0 for the actual upgrade.

Just the normal wage of your techs for the time it takes to make the conversion (usually 2 weeks to 3 months depending on how many DHS they have to install and how many SHS they have to remove. 3 months is if you have the most incompetent tech with no assistants and a lot of bad work done).

Interesting! About how much would that translate to in total labor cost for your typical 10 DHS 'Mech then?