27 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

After reading several topics and playing quite a bit. It seems like the "OP Clan mechs" are typically running several SRMs or are LRM boats. I've played the stock timberwolf variants and the S is clearly the most powerful of the mechs. Just hold down the SRMs key and it rips the armor off anything in 1-2 volleys. LRMs are more accurate and fire differently, in a stream rather than a bunch. (which by the way is how modern missile systems fire, they dont launch a wall of missiles its a stream of them).

What are the stat comparisons to IS LRMs and SRMs?
seems like they reload faster, and do more damage.

[Pendraco]

IS missiles pack a lot more punch, I think they reload faster..but not certain.

[Moonlander]

I think IS LRMs are also not as susceptible to AMS, because of their firing in bursts, instead of a streak?

I think I read that somewhere.

[Asyres]

IS launchers tend to be slightly higher DPS (clan lrms don't start their cooldown until they finish firing, and IS srms do slightly more damage), but the clan versions weigh half as much.

[Livewyr]

Brody319, on 24 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

What are the stat comparisons to IS LRMs and SRMs?
seems like they reload faster, and do more damage.

The opposite is true:
1: Clan LRMs shoot slower.
1a: They have a longer recycle time. (Recent Patch)
1b: They do not begin recycle until all of the missiles are shot. (which takes about a second with a CLRM20.)
1c: Longer base cooldown + Laser style recycle = Slower Rate of Fire.

2: On a non-AMS mech that is not moving, they do the same damage as IS equivalents.
2a: On an AMS mech, they do less damage than IS racks because their stream-fire gives the AMS more time to shoot down a single salvo.
2b: Because of the stream-fire, if you do not make it to cover in time before the first missile hits, you might make it in time before the last missiles hit. (Less damage)
2c: Even if you do not make it to cover, and have no AMS, you can spread the damage as the stream fire comes in, much like lasers.

3: IS SRMs do 2.15 damage per missile. Clan SRMs do 2.0 damage per missile.

---------------
The balancing factor of this, is that due to the tech differences, the Clans can mount more missiles if they have more hard-points.

[Russ Bullock]

Clan LRM's have a very small ( if memory serves half second ) longer cool down per pack - this is a very small counter to the fact that Clan LRM packs can literally weight half as much ( IS LRM 20 - 10 tons andn Clan LRM 20 = 5 tons ).

The trail of missiles is more prone to AMS fire as well to counter the fact that Clan LRM's can do some damage well within 180 meters.

All in all the Clan LRM's are still very powerful for their tonnage.

[TamCoan]

Asyres, on 24 September 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

IS launchers tend to be slightly higher DPS (clan lrms don't start their cooldown until they finish firing, and IS srms do slightly more damage), but the clan versions weigh half as much.

That is completely correct. If you take the time you can watch your volley of clan lrms get chewed through by AMS fire. There's been a number of times where I've launched 30 missiles and none of them reach their target. (2-3 AMS shooting them down.) On the flip side 30 IS missiles will see about 10 get through the same screen.

[Gyrok]

Russ Bullock, on 24 September 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Clan LRM's have a very small ( if memory serves half second ) longer cool down per pack - this is a very small counter to the fact that Clan LRM packs can literally weight half as much ( IS LRM 20 - 10 tons andn Clan LRM 20 = 5 tons ).

The trail of missiles is more prone to AMS fire as well to counter the fact that Clan LRM's can do some damage well within 180 meters.

All in all the Clan LRM's are still very powerful for their tonnage.

If you put the bigger IS LRM launchers back to where they were balanced without consideration for Artemis, this would be far less an issue.

I remember when 4xLRM5 with Artemis weighed 3 tons more than 1 LRM20. Which is precisely how it should be...missile launchers were never balanced around the idea of artemis.

[Mcgral18]

SRMs are nearly identical, but 50% weight. isSRMs have a MG bullet and a half extra payload.


Now, 3 damage, or 150% damage, would make isSRMs pretty big. You have the choice between 50% weight, or 150% damage.

http://www.sarna.net...d-Fire_Missiles

Of course, 2.5 damage and faster projectile speed would be a nice compromise, while cSRMs remain the same.

[Brody319]

Hmm. Maybe its just the availability of missile slots and the weight of the systems.
Almost every clan mech has missiles slots and their weight lets all of them carry at least some missiles.

[Rhent]

Gyrok, on 24 September 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

If you put the bigger IS LRM launchers back to where they were balanced without consideration for Artemis, this would be far less an issue.

I remember when 4xLRM5 with Artemis weighed 3 tons more than 1 LRM20. Which is precisely how it should be...missile launchers were never balanced around the idea of artemis.

Artemis is not worth the weight and space considerations, especially for a LRM boat. The primary damage benefit is tighter grouping that only works when the LRM boat has direct vision on the target. The secondary benefit is faster locking, and with radar deprivation module, it could allow you to lock faster on a mech and shoot before a good lock has taken place. Factor in NARC actually working now as well, and artemis becomes something you take if you have the extra tonnage lying around. For my Stalker LRM 50, I'd rather have the 4 more tons of ammo.

[Brody319]

I played a bit more, and it seems like just the fact that clans can use missiles more than IS mechs is the problem.
The flight path is a big problem as well, while AMS has more time to stop missiles and they do less damage, they seem to hit more accurately which is more important. because my missiles are flying right behind each other, they all hit in the same general areas. While IS missile flight patterns have them in a big glob, which means they spread the damage out over the whole mech.

So the fact that almost every clan mech can equip and use missiles, LRMs and SRMs, results in a lot of pinpoint heavy damage to other mechs.

Either the IS mechs need to change their flight patterns, or the heat generated by Clan missiles needs to go up a lot, otherwise Clans will just rip up the enemy from afar.

[Kain Demos]

The IS missiles take a far better trajectory to the target though and are thus much more effective at indirect fire.

Their firing pattern also makes exploiting the "rocking" effect easier as well. They may weigh more but in use IS LRM boats are more effective.

[Asyres]

Brody319, on 24 September 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

So the fact that almost every clan mech can equip and use missiles, LRMs and SRMs, results in a lot of pinpoint heavy damage to other mechs.

Because clan LRMs are fired in a long burst, they are inherently not pinpoint.

[Brody319]

Kain Thul, on 24 September 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

The IS missiles take a far better trajectory to the target though and are thus much more effective at indirect fire.

Their firing pattern also makes exploiting the "rocking" effect easier as well. They may weigh more but in use IS LRM boats are more effective.

Asyres, on 24 September 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Because clan LRMs are fired in a long burst, they are inherently not pinpoint.

Thats not reflected in the gameplay. I watch mechs get ripped apart and cored within a few volley's from almost entirely clan LRMs. Also It looks like my LRMs have almost completely reloaded by the time my last missile has launched. Like less than a second.

Yes Boating LRMs might make IS mechs more effective, but Clan LRMs can be slapped on anything. They all have missile slots and the tonnage to spare equipping them and not lose any close range effectiveness. Being hit by a blob of IS lrms hurts and wobbles my screen more yes, but unless they are boating and using the right modules I can easily get to cover before their next volley comes. and if I'm so out in the open that I can't then it doesnt matter if its clan or IS missiles I'm gonna die.

I really feel like some of the statistics or values are off because I swear those things are hitting harder, faster, and more accurately.

[Dracol]

Rhent, on 24 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Artemis is not worth the weight and space considerations, especially for a LRM boat. The primary damage benefit is tighter grouping that only works when the LRM boat has direct vision on the target. The secondary benefit is faster locking, and with radar deprivation module, it could allow you to lock faster on a mech and shoot before a good lock has taken place. Factor in NARC actually working now as well, and artemis becomes something you take if you have the extra tonnage lying around. For my Stalker LRM 50, I'd rather have the 4 more tons of ammo.

I agree, on LRM boats looking to provide indirect fire, Artemis holds little benefit.

A lesser used playstyle that Artemis benefits is a more front line, LRM equipped mech. Designed to fight at 400m to 200m range, a fairly fast IS heavy with dual LRM10 arty, a few lasers, and tag can be effective in hill hump situations, such as caustic. The lasers and tag hit a cresting opponent, a quick lock sends a flight of missiles as they back down. At that close of a range, the missiles will cluster nicely center torso with little loss due to AMS. Even with radar deprivation, heavies and assaults still get hammered by the missiles if they are quick enough to back away in time.

Edited by Dracol, 24 September 2014 - 11:41 AM.

[mongo2006]

Brody319, on 24 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

After reading several topics and playing quite a bit. It seems like the "OP Clan mechs" are typically running several SRMs or are LRM boats. I've played the stock timberwolf variants and the S is clearly the most powerful of the mechs. Just hold down the SRMs key and it rips the armor off anything in 1-2 volleys. LRMs are more accurate and fire differently, in a stream rather than a bunch. (which by the way is how modern missile systems fire, they dont launch a wall of missiles its a stream of them).

What are the stat comparisons to IS LRMs and SRMs?
seems like they reload faster, and do more damage.

LOL you want to have something nerfed and asking us for the facts?....tears and snot dude

[Kain Demos]

Dracol, on 24 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

I agree, on LRM boats looking to provide indirect fire, Artemis holds little benefit.

A lesser used playstyle that Artemis benefits is a more front line, LRM equipped mech. Designed to fight at 400m to 200m range, a fairly fast IS heavy with dual LRM10 arty, a few lasers, and tag can be effective in hill hump situations, such as caustic. The lasers and tag hit a cresting opponent, a quick lock sends a flight of missiles as they back down. At that close of a range, the missiles will cluster nicely center torso with little loss due to AMS. Even with radar deprivation, heavies and assaults still get hammered by the missiles if they are quick enough to back away in time.

I currently only run one missile boat--Timberwolf Prime--and I use dual LRM20s w/Artemis and TAG. Clan LRMs just aren't as good with the indirect fire due to their flatter trajectory so my goal is get LOS, tag, and fire. If reasonable indirect fire solutions present themselves I will fire the missiles (since I'm carrying 1620) but my primary use is to find someone in the open and get LOS.

I've spent entire matches where we have lots of boats and they simply won't come out of cover and I run out of missiles and do just 300 damage due to all the indirect fire. In comparison a match where I routinely fire on people in the open I can do 800 damage and only fire half of my missiles.

[Brody319]

mongo2006, on 24 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

LOL you want to have something nerfed and asking us for the facts?....tears and snot dude

How dare I express a concern without digging through mountains of data or sitting in mech bay for 5 hours trying to figure out the exact points a single missile and volley. I've played Catapults, missile boats for IS, and Timber wolves for Clan. I know that the clan missiles feel extremely different.

Direct fire yes a stream does more damage, I also know that firing indirectly having the missles bunched up means that they can hit a wider area and can actually hit a mech who moved. In pubs however (which is what I play) its not indirect, I tend to have a teammate who has keeps the enemy spotted and the missiles track them just fine. I can see the damage they are doing. May be different in meta matches when everyone knows how to spread damage and avoid missiles, but in PUBs Clan missiles feel blatantly superior.

[Asyres]

Brody319, on 24 September 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

How dare I express a concern without digging through mountains of data or sitting in mech bay for 5 hours trying to figure out the exact points a single missile and volley. I've played Catapults, missile boats for IS, and Timber wolves for Clan. I know that the clan missiles feel extremely different.

Direct fire yes a stream does more damage, I also know that firing indirectly having the missles bunched up means that they can hit a wider area and can actually hit a mech who moved. In pubs however (which is what I play) its not indirect, I tend to have a teammate who has keeps the enemy spotted and the missiles track them just fine. I can see the damage they are doing. May be different in meta matches when everyone knows how to spread damage and avoid missiles, but in PUBs Clan missiles feel blatantly superior.

In the basic tests I have staged on this, I have not noticed any improvement in the grouping of Clan LRMs vs. IS LRMs of the same size. That means that if a catapult and a mad dog both fire 2LRM20 at you, approximately the same number of missiles hit you in either case (all other things being equal). Any perceived discrepancy between the DPS of the two is probably because Clan LRM hoses can often - but not always - put more missiles down range in one go than their IS counterparts, owing to the lower weight of the Clan launchers.

tl;dr clan lrms do not do more dps, but they do more dps per weapon ton.