99 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Weapon Balance

IS ER Large Laser heat down from 8.5 to 8.0
IS ER Large Laser duration increased from 1.0 to 1.5

Heat down I'm assuming comes with it being 1.5s.

I don't think it needs to be 1.5s, that's too long. I do understand the goal of this however.
1.3s maximum if PGI really feels the beam needs to be longer and to create role space for the IS LLAS.


Clan ER Large Laser damage down from 11.25 to 11.0
Clan ER Large Laser heat penalty down from 12.0 to 4.0
Clan ER Large Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 890m to 740m
Clan ER Large Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1780m to 1480m
Clan ER Large Laser duration down from 2.0s to 1.6s

I'm OK with everything except the beam duration. I never like the 1.5 beam, so while 1.6 is better than 2s its still a bit too long imo.

Clan ER Medium Laser base heat increased from 5.0 to 6.0
Clan ER Medium Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 450m to 400m
Clan ER Medium Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 900m to 800m
Clan ER Medium Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.25s


Should be heat or range nerf, not both. I think the range nerf makes more sense.

6 Heat for a 7 damage weapon seems a bit extreme, should have tried 5.5 first.

-0.05s beam duration is amount no one cares about. Should be 1.2s.


Clan ER Small Laser base heat increased from 2.0 to 3.0
Clan ER Small Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 200m to 150m
Clan ER Small Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 400m to 300m

There is not really much value in taking this weapon now unless you are a Nova, and if you are a Nova you should probably take CERMLAS anyway.

2x CERSLAS = 6 heat, 8 damage. 150m. 1 Ton, 2 Hardpoints
1x CERMLAS = 6 heat, 7 damage. 400m, 1 Ton, 1 Hardpoint

This is a no brainer.


Clan Large Pulse Laser damage down from 11.8 to 11.6
Clan Large Pulse Laser heat penalty increased from 2.8 to 4.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser base heat increased from 8.0 to 9.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 600m to 525m
Clan Large Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1200m to 1050m
Clan Large Pulse Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.2s

These seem OK, I think the beam duration needs to come down for this still. 1s or so.



Clan Medium Pulse Laser base heat increased from 5.5 to 6.0
Clan Medium Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 400m to 330m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 800m to 660m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser duration down from 0.9s to 0.85s

This weapon seems awful now, I will never use it.


Clan Small Pulse Laser base heat increased from 2.4 to 3.4
Clan Small Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 180m to 150m
Clan Small Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 360m to 300m

I can't even fathom what line of reasoning led to nerfing this weapon outside of what seems like an obsessive slavishness to "normalizing all the things".

It might be a forum meme, but it's apt.




Clan LRM-5 cooldown increased from 3.25s to 3.5s

Clan LRM-10 cooldown increased from 3.75s to 4.0s

Clan LRM-15 cooldown increased from 4.25s to 4.5s

Clan LRM-20 cooldown increased from 4.75s to 5.0s


These seem reasonable.



Clan Streak SRM-4 cooldown decreased from 5.25s to 5.0s

Clan Streak SRM-6 cooldown decreased from 7.0s to 6.0s


A touch better, still not a good weapon choice.

6s CD for a brawl range weapon that has auto spread is hysterically bad.

PGI needs to go back to the drawing board on the entire streak weapon system if this is the best
they can do.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 05 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

I can't even fathom what line of reasoning led to nerfing this weapon outside of what seems like an obsessive slavishness to "normalizing all the things".

It might be a forum meme, but it's apt.

QFT

Seriously though.. that's kinda where balancing by feel makes more sense to tweak the numbers than to just arbitrarily decide "let's just plug in numbers and hope ideally it'll just work".

Edited by Deathlike, 05 September 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Xarian]

The changes to the small lasers and pulse lasers should've never been implemented. Pulse lasers are already grossly inefficient due to the tonnage difference and decreased range. Small lasers were marginally usable before, and unusable now.

Basically all they're doing is forcing Clan mechs to boat cERLL and cERML. cLPL was never viable and is even worse now. cMPL was marginally viable before, and is not now. cERSL and cSPL were never particularly viable, and are not now.

Pretty much the same as the IS versions. Seriously: buff pulse lasers and small lasers across the board. Nobody uses them right now, and they are not good weapons.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 05 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Weapon Balance

IS ER Large Laser heat down from 8.5 to 8.0
IS ER Large Laser duration increased from 1.0 to 1.5

Heat down I'm assuming comes with it being 1.5s.

I don't think it needs to be 1.5s, that's too long. I do understand the goal of this however.
1.3s maximum if PGI really feels the beam needs to be longer and to create role space for the IS LLAS.


Clan ER Large Laser damage down from 11.25 to 11.0
Clan ER Large Laser heat penalty down from 12.0 to 4.0
Clan ER Large Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 890m to 740m
Clan ER Large Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1780m to 1480m
Clan ER Large Laser duration down from 2.0s to 1.6s

I'm OK with everything except the beam duration. I never like the 1.5 beam, so while 1.6 is better than 2s its still a bit too long imo.

Clan ER Medium Laser base heat increased from 5.0 to 6.0
Clan ER Medium Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 450m to 400m
Clan ER Medium Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 900m to 800m
Clan ER Medium Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.25s


Should be heat or range nerf, not both. I think the range nerf makes more sense.

6 Heat for a 7 damage weapon seems a bit extreme, should have tried 5.5 first.

-0.05s beam duration is amount no one cares about. Should be 1.2s.


Clan ER Small Laser base heat increased from 2.0 to 3.0
Clan ER Small Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 200m to 150m
Clan ER Small Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 400m to 300m

There is not really much value in taking this weapon now unless you are a Nova, and if you are a Nova you should probably take CERMLAS anyway.

2x CERSLAS = 6 heat, 8 damage. 150m. 1 Ton, 2 Hardpoints
1x CERMLAS = 6 heat, 7 damage. 400m, 1 Ton, 1 Hardpoint

This is a no brainer.


Clan Large Pulse Laser damage down from 11.8 to 11.6
Clan Large Pulse Laser heat penalty increased from 2.8 to 4.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser base heat increased from 8.0 to 9.0
Clan Large Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 600m to 525m
Clan Large Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 1200m to 1050m
Clan Large Pulse Laser duration down from 1.3s to 1.2s

These seem OK, I think the beam duration needs to come down for this still. 1s or so.



Clan Medium Pulse Laser base heat increased from 5.5 to 6.0
Clan Medium Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 400m to 330m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 800m to 660m
Clan Medium Pulse Laser duration down from 0.9s to 0.85s

This weapon seems awful now, I will never use it.


Clan Small Pulse Laser base heat increased from 2.4 to 3.4
Clan Small Pulse Laser long range (max damage) reduced from 180m to 150m
Clan Small Pulse Laser max range (falloff to zero damage) reduced from 360m to 300m

I can't even fathom what line of reasoning led to nerfing this weapon outside of what seems like an obsessive slavishness to "normalizing all the things".

It might be a forum meme, but it's apt.




Clan LRM-5 cooldown increased from 3.25s to 3.5s

Clan LRM-10 cooldown increased from 3.75s to 4.0s

Clan LRM-15 cooldown increased from 4.25s to 4.5s

Clan LRM-20 cooldown increased from 4.75s to 5.0s


These seem reasonable.



Clan Streak SRM-4 cooldown decreased from 5.25s to 5.0s

Clan Streak SRM-6 cooldown decreased from 7.0s to 6.0s


A touch better, still not a good weapon choice.

6s CD for a brawl range weapon that has auto spread is hysterically bad.

PGI needs to go back to the drawing board on the entire streak weapon system if this is the best
they can do.

too many 2 ER LLaser Ravens around, blame them, lol.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

too many 2 ER LLaser Ravens around, blame them, lol.

My guess is that this is more a part of their campaign to reduce the range combat happens, trying to keep things around 600m.

If you penalize weapons with extended range beyond that, by make them very inefficient at close ranges, then its a pretty specific build choice vs. the shorter range version.

The concept in and of itself is sound, and the LLAS was often eschewed for the value the ER LLAS would give over it.

So to create role space without touching tonnage and crit slots, they only have these numbers to tweak.

I think they are just off on the amounts and the targets.


For example they could have left it at 1s, and increased the heat to 9, dropped the opt range to 650m.

With the changes they chose, I'd say 1.3s beam is more reasonable.

I'll likely be dropping IS ER LLAS from every mech that has them, this cannot possibly be the desired result (total abandonment of the weapon).

[WarHippy]

The beam duration is being changed to 1.25 instead of 1.5 this coming Tuesday. They said the 1.5 duration was a mistake. For IS ERLL that is.

The changes to ERLasers and missiles seem ok for the most part, but the change to the pulse lasers was kind of brutal for something that was not in the best of places to begin with.

Edited by WarHippy, 05 September 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[RetroActive]

Did they adjust the values at all after the feedback from the PTS? It doesn't look like it.

[William Mountbank]

Edit: rant at IS ERLL 1.5 second duration before I read that it's only 1.25.

Still, why nerf this weapon anyway? Sure, forcing all the TwERLL Ravens out of business would mean nothing but Jenner Fs and Embers in the field, which everyone seems to want, but ranged lights are there because brawling isn't for most of the little guys.

Edited by William Mountbank, 05 September 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[N a p e s]

William Mountbank, on 05 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Did they really nerf IS ER-LL by 50% duration?How was this weapon not balanced before? Or is it just because IS TwERLL lights are 'not how PGI sees the game'?
Please tell me its not just because they thought there should be duration parity between IS and Clan LLers... Or worse, ranged combat in any non-gauss form is bad, mmkay?

Paul posted about the change to beam duration for the IS ER Llas. It will be adjusted to 1.25 as planned on the September 9th patch. 1.5 seconds was a mistake that slipped by.

[Willard Phule]

If you're paying attention to the clan weapons....you'll notice that the CERML and the CMPL have the same heat and virtually the same range (especially if you have the modules)....and, although the CMPL weighs 1 ton more, it does more damage and as a quicker burn time.

I went from a 1.34 heat efficiency on my TW that packed 4 CERMLs and 2 UAC5s to a 1.17. Kinda harsh, but ok, I can live with it.

At least the CERLLs are viable again. Nothing like they were, but they're usable.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Napes339, on 05 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Paul posted about the change to beam duration for the IS ER Llas. It will be adjusted to 1.25 as planned on the September 9th patch. 1.5 seconds was a mistake that slipped by.

Well then they better make the large pulse lasers burn for .9 - 1 seconds then! WTH is the point of pulse weapons if they're only .05 seconds or some BS faster!?

[Mcgral18]

I...can't haz wub?


Oh...okay.

Thanks Paul, the WubFox is no more.

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

IS ERLL ray time 1,5s!? OMG. Useless weapon without damage increase than...

[Jolly Llama]

Craptastic.

[Mawai]

Interesting analysis ... but I disagree with some of the conclusions.

I am not sure any of these changes are really much of a nerf and in some cases represent significant improvements.

1) Almost all of these changes actually increase the DPS of clan weapons. In many cases this may tend to make them MORE effective rather than less since they must hold the target for less time in order to do full damage.

2) Range nerfs aren't a big deal. Most fights eventually seem to go down to the 100 to 600m range ... there is some sniping before hand and you can rip apart a target in the open at long range if you let them ... but generally, with the exception of LRMs ... most fights use cover and end up closer. Nerfing range tends to only change the engagement range and weapon selection of the person driving the mech. Making the range 350m instead of 400m means that the player adjusts their playstyle to the weapon system ... or does 90% of the possible damage choosing to fire at 400m.

In addition, the range "nerfs" seem pretty comparable to the range bonus now available from modules. These nerfs might be driven by a desire to drive module sales as any other factor.

3) LRM cooldowns decrease sustained DPS .. however, most LRM boats I have watched fire in bursts since they usually can't get a lock for a sufficiently long time. In addition 0.25 second increase is more or less negligible.

4) C-streaks were buffed by a decrease in cooldowns. The long delays on the streaks are required to balance auto-hit weapons. Streaks fire 2, 4 or 6 missiles that do not miss unless they run into terrain. I have already seen clan streak boats rip other mechs apart ... especially if they have already been damaged ... not as effectively as focused fire but still significant since the damage is fully applied across the mech.

As for redesigning the streak system ... would be great but the problem is with the source material rather than PGI. Streaks are actually functioning closer to the devices in TT than most of the rest of the weapon design since the missiles are randomly targeted on the various parts of the target mech structure.

5) The small pulse laser change in base heat seems proportionally too large ... 2.4 to 3.4 is 40% which is a large change and I had not heard that clan small pulse lasers were truly that OP to start with.

6) Agree that there is little point to the C-ERSL now ... refire rate will likely be limited by heat in any case.

7) I also agree that changes of 0.05s are meaningless. That number (50ms) is smaller than the typical lag (ping) in the game ... I am not sure that there would be any statistically significant change in effective damage except over hundreds of matches. Why bother with a change like that?

Edited by Mawai, 05 September 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Viges]

My opinion is this: new meta.

[William Mountbank]

Napes339, on 05 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Paul posted about the change to beam duration for the IS ER Llas. It will be adjusted to 1.25 as planned on the September 9th patch. 1.5 seconds was a mistake that slipped by.

Yeah, I already spent 10 mins editing my post on my old phone re exactly this.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 05 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

I...can't haz wub?


Oh...okay.

Thanks Paul, the WubFox is no more.

Yeah. Most stuff is OK or marginal.

But, SPL and MPL just got raked through the coals, and all were marginal to begin with (though you can thank the 6-12 ersl builds of the compies for their nerfs. Not their fault per se, but just highlighted the severe flaw in some of the system with them, though still highly situational.)

LPL only really hurts the Direwolf and Warhawk, but..... IDK... Warhawk didn't really need MORE build limitations, ya know?

[Roland]

So they actually put the changes to all the weapons into the game?
And skipped ever putting them on the test server, because they screwed up putting them on the test server last time?

Seems like just because you screw up loading your build onto the test server, that doesn't mean you can just skip the testing before going to production.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 05 September 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

So they actually put the changes to all the weapons into the game?
And skipped ever putting them on the test server, because they screwed up putting them on the test server last time?

Seems like just because you screw up loading your build onto the test server, that doesn't mean you can just skip the testing before going to production.

Um... actually they put them on the test server. Was about 4 hrs in, but from that point til the server went down, the changes were in.