110 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

Setting the AA mode to No AA via the advance options menus still results in Post AA being applied.

Setting 'r_postaa=0' in User config and system override still results in Post AA being applied.

Cryengines Post AA produces an undesirable image effect, for some it is bothersome, for others it is of no concern. For me, it gives me a headache.

PostAA could be disabled up till UI2.0 was released, since then it cannot inless you are using MSAA or TXAA which override postAA.

There must be some errant code forcing the application of PostAA when no AA is selected.



Report:
Unable to Disable PostAA (Cryengines Temporal AA) With out use of higher forms of AA (MSAA/TXAA)

Reproducability: 100% using NoAA/PostAA (When set to No AA, this should not happen.)

Most noticeable:
When a mech is passing through your view when you are not tracking their movement.
High Resolutions.

Less Noticeable:
When you are tracking the movement of another mech.
Low resolutions

Fix:
Find the code which is blocking 'r_postaa=0'

This is an example of what is seen.




I have had a few exchanges with Matthew Craig on the issue.



Transcript from my exchanges with Matthew, who was very helpful in his attempts to peg the problem down.

Spoiler

First exchange

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Matthew Craig, on 03 June 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

I have some time to investigate this issue, could you please describe for me your settings and how you see this issue (I've tried various DX11 setups with no luck) would appreciate your input to help reproduce it as your seeing it.

Lordred, on 03 June 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Matthew Craig, on 03 June 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

I have some time to investigate this issue, could you please describe for me your settings and how you see this issue (I've tried various DX11 setups with no luck) would appreciate your input to help reproduce it as your seeing it.

I went ahead and restored my drivers to their orginial configuration as shipped by Nvidia to restore the game to its orginial look.


I removed all settings from my user.cfg aside from FoV (74) and Cockpitglass.

First batch is with Ingame AA set off (No AA), and Motion Blur set to off.

I have attached four images for these settings, one to display the settings used, and three to display the motion blur that is noticeable (Some have called it ghosting, but as far as I am aware if it part of the Cry Engines Edge AA)

No-AA set, Motion Blur = Off

Spoiler

TXAA Set, Motion Blur = Off

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As for my hardware configuration.

CPU: AMD FX-8350
Mainboard: ASRock 990FX Professional
Dram: G.Skill Sniper 1866 2x4Gb
GPU: eVGA nVidia GTX 680-4gb Classified
Display Driver Version: 335.23
Primary Drive: Crucial M4 256gb SSD
Secondary Drive: Crucial M4 256gb SSD


Thank you for contacting me.
~Red

Second exchange

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Matthew Craig, on 04 June 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Thank you for the detailed response (love the work in the screenshot thread by the way). Just curious are you able to see this in testing grounds?

Also if your interested I can highly recommend Nvidia' latest drivers I've been testing them out and there is a noticeable performance increase for MWO in the latest drivers using DX11 if you're looking for more frame rate.

I'll keep you posted on what I find with this ghosting issue.

Thanks again

Matthew Craig, on 04 June 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

I know you said they are at default settings but would you mind attaching a screenshot of your Nvidia driver settings just so I can ensure I'm definitely matching what you have, thanks.

Lordred, on 04 June 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

I performed the tests in the testing ground and found them 100% repeatable.


For starters the requested NVCP/NVI
(Nvidia Control Panel/Nvidia Inspector)

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Method



NoAA

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TXAA

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I will be looking into the driver update next.

Third exchange

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Matthew Craig, on 05 June 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Great thanks Lordred

I'm looking through the code and its certainly an odd one the object motion blur shouldn't kick in unless r_MotionBlur is set to 2 or higher.

As you can reproduce this if you have time would you mind playing with r_MotionBlurMaxViewDist particularly curious if 0 resolves the issue (this parameter is supposed to be the maximum distance to display object blur for e.g. Mechs within 200 meters should be =200 anything beyond that distance shouldn't blur).

Also does r_MotionBlurShutterSpeed have any impact on how separated the 'trails' appear?

Also what FPS (F9) do you see when you see this blur, just curious if its related to slow frame rate or not, though I gather you have a high end machine?

Lordred, on 05 June 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

I have updated to the current Nvidia drivers.

Current User.cfg cvars

cl_fov = 74
gp_option_ShowCockpitGlass = 0
r_MotionBlur = 0
r_MotionBlurMaxViewDist = 0
r_MotionBlurShutterSpeed = 0.0001
r_PostAA = 0
r_UseEdgeAA = 0

No change to 'Ghosting'

Avarage FPS @ 1920x1200 ~ 100
Avarage FPS @ 3264x2040 ~ 35

Spoiler

1920x1200

3264x2040

Lordred, on 05 June 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Small update, I belive that the ghosting that is being noticed is infact not related to motion blur at all (You may blaim my calling it blur on lack of knowledge)

It would appear to be completely the fault of Post AA. (Possibly related to the Cryengines use of Temporal AA)


Launching into a match, Training Grounds or a normal match the game (atleast on my end) apparently defaults into PostAA, regardless of NoAA/PostAA selection in the menu. While in match re-applying the selection of NoAA completely removed all image ghosting. Upon exiting of the match, re-entry will once again enable PostAA (though not selected) and results in image ghosting in the following match. Applying the NoAA setting mid match will remove the ghosting effect once more.


Simply using MSAA, or TXAA also removes image ghosting

I hope you can repeat this, I will re-install the game if you are unable to duplicate the results.



User.cfg was empty for these tests.
Drivers are on default settings.


Performing aditional tests, I've spent the last week becoming more familiar with the Cryengine to better work with you on this.

I am fairly certian this is a PostAA issue croping up with PostAA defaulting on, even when selected to be off.

Lordred, on 06 June 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Small amendment: I do not appear to beable to replicate the ability to remove ghost imageing while in public matches by toggeling from PostAA to NoAA within the match. The ghosts continue.

Spoiler

Fourth exchange

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Matthew Craig, on 09 June 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

Thanks for the feedback Lordred much appreciated.

Matthew Craig, on 03 July 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Lordred

Can you try setting depth of field to 0 or 1 r_DepthOfField=0/1 and see if it still occurs for you.

It seems to be an issue with the setting r_DepthOfField=2

Much Appreciated

Lordred, on 03 July 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

That is an easy one Matthew. It still presists with the depth of field set to 0. The issue appears to purely the inability to disable postAA in live matches. Right now inless a higher AA is selected (TXAA or MSAA) the client currently ignores the NoAA setting and will use PostAA

I belive there is a problem with the live build which prevents the disabling of postAA. I have been playing with the systemoverride as well as creating an autoexec to try to disable the engines edgeaa, postaa, and fsaa with mixed results.

For now i have been using the supported MSAA and TXAA settings to remove the image ghosting, others who follow the screenshot thread report similar findings.

If my response is somewhat scatered i appologize, I am responding via cellphone while taking a break at work.

Lordred, on 03 July 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Please take a look at the folowing two posts for my explanations in the screenshot thread if you are willing

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3511414

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3528760

Thanks again

Fifth exchange

Spoiler

Matthew Craig, on 04 July 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Hi Lordred

Quick update so I'm able to reproduce this type of artifacting in the testing grounds

http://pumpgasracing...tdropNoAA-2.jpg

I've tracked that down in the PostAA shader to a minor imprecision in the texture offsetting that is being used; however, I now suspect this is a separate bug for DX11.

I have not been able to reproduce the other type of artifacting you show (yet)

http://pumpgasracing...tdropNoAA-1.jpg

If you compare the images you can see the quality of the artifacting is different, and I suspect this is the one that is bugging most players and causing this type of ghosting that you linked earlier.

http://pumpgasracing...esting/darn.jpg

Can you please tell me exactly how you reproduced that testdropNoAA-1.jpg artifacting that is the one I now need to reproduce and resolve but I can currently only get the other type. I suspect I know how it is happening having been looking through the PostAA code but I need a repro case to ensure it is genuinely resolved.

Thanks for your help with this its much appreciated.

Lordred, on 04 July 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

Here you go Matthew, with luck you will notice it in this video, sadly Youtube compressed it more then I would have liked (target was 11kbps, looks like they dropped it to 5k~ish)

My user.cfg was cleared and the game settings reset

cl_fov=74
gp_option_ShowCockpitGlass=0
r_HDRGrainAmount=0.0
r_DepthOfField=0

I set the game to Very High and toggled the AA to "NoAA" then I restarted the game. From the mechbay menu I started recording, went into the settings to show that NoAA is selected and started the Training Ground for you. I ran out to the Awesome (easiest mech to circle due to its location) and if you pause the video on youtube every time I make a pass on the Awesome, you will see the "ghost" outline of the Awesome (this applies for all mechs, cockpit, and pilot if they are caught in motion)

I then moved in close to show that while set to off, PostAA was infact enabled. So while in the training grounds I toggled the settings from NoAA to PostAA, and then back. Now render clearly shows no antiailaising is happening, and I proceed to circle the mech again. This time whenever you pause the video while I am running by the mech, there is no ghost image (the client having accepted the NoAA command) I then powered down, and up.

I once again toggled the client back to PostAA, powered down (if you watch the hand and the buttons in the cockpit, you will notice that they all present image ghosting) powered up and circled the Awesome once again, having the same image ghosting issue that the game shows when set to NoAA during a client restart. This bypass will only work for me in the Training ground, it will not disable PostAA in a live match.




(saddly the image ghosts on the awesome are much easier to see on the higher bitrate version, I will take a live game anyways to show you.)

This bug is present on both a Windows 7 and 8.1 install. Now I am not complaining about PostAA having the issue with the ghost images, there is nothing you guys can do about that, that is Cryengins implementation of Temporal AA. However if we could get the game to actually toggle to NoAA when set (and stay on NoAA) then I imagine anyone else experiencing this problem will no longer have it. The image ghosting effect can be quite distracting in a live match some times.


The other option is for people to use MSAA if they wish to avoid it, the problem being the amount of hardware 'omph' required. I hope I am mistaken, but I believe I am in the upper end on the hardware spectrum for players, I can (and do) run MSAA full time, or TXAA/MSAA2x

Lordred, on 07 July 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

HD is still processing (may be done by the time you read this), however this should display what I really wanted you to see.

In the beginning of the match, watching the mechs on the team I was on walk by shows the problem very well, it becomes much harder to catch in the middle of combat, but is still viewable.

The image ghosting is most prevalent at the beginning, and that is all you really need to see. However, if you like watching Commandos tear up mechs over three times its size, by all means, watch the whole thing.

Edit: I took the liberty to have as much diagnostic info available for you as possible, so you will see GPU utilization, power utilization, temp, Vram usage, clock speeds, Dram Usage, and CPU utilization.

Final response

Spoiler

Matthew Craig, on 15 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Hi Lordred

Sadly no, really at a loss to see what is different between our setups. I'm handing all the information off to our QA team for now to see if they can find a suitable repro case. Only real difference I see between our setups is I'm using a 780 and you're using a 680 GPU

Sucks as I was really hoping to get this fixed last week but guess its going to take a bit longer to track down a debuggable repro case.

Edited by Lordred, 06 September 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Just to add to this: I have exactly the same problems Mordred has, and have taken all the same steps to rectify it/test.

I am running an AMD Phenomenon 2 X4 965 BE, with a AMD 7850, so its not limited to nvidia.

Its intensely aggravating to me, though it doesn't give me headaches it severely reduces the visual quality of the game. Using MSAA does correct it, but my 7850 lacks the horsepower to do that at reasonable framerates.

This has been a problem for me for a long time, and it affects almost everyone I talk to. While Mr. Craig can't replicate it, he's definitely in the minority - almost everyone I know gets this, across a wide range of hardware, software, and settings.

[Flak Kannon]

Thank LordRed.

I to am still experiencing this amazingly annoying issue.

I think you and I posted the same day it started occurring.. maybe after the implementation of DirectX11..? I don't remember which patch, I could go back and look at my old posts.


anyway..

Thank you Lordred for staying on top of PGI on this issue.


Your image is exactly what happens to me also.. it usually occurs in the first 60 seconds of a match.


Again.. PGI.. Please, Please, Please... Pretty Please Fix this.


Thank you.

Edited by Flak Kannon, 05 September 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Wintersdark]

I'd like to add: Even if you (PGI) cannot replicate the issue, see the screenshots: we clearly suffer it. Please give us a functioning ability to fully disable PostAA, without having to use a higher cost AA method, as that does fix the issue.

[kuangmk11]

Thanks for posting this (again). it really needs to be fixed.

[Koniving]

AMD Phenom II X950 quad core processor at 3.6 ghz.
16 Gigs ram
XFX AMD Radeon 6870.
Windows 7.
I get the issue with all AA settings except MSAA but the MSAA in MWO is extremely poorly optimized compared to that of ANY Crysis Game, Star Citizen, and virtually any other game I've ever played.


In video you almost can't see it unless cut down to 30 fps.
Still frames however, you can track its history back to closed beta.

[Modo44]

This started happening when user.cfg was locked down hard to prevent cheating. It seems that nobody bothered to look at it since then to whitelist anything.

BTW, some documentation on what actually works when in user.cfg would be nice. There is no point in looking for CryEngine tweaks when most will not work/will work randomly.

[Lordred]

Additional testing.

All settings = LOW
Frame rate limit of 100 used.

@720p noticeable

@2160p VERY noticeable


Low-Spec simulation frame rate limit set to 33fps.

[Lordred]

Very shameless bump to keep the topic visible, as most of the current 'feedback' is related to complaints about heat changes, and not about bugs.

[Zero Verniers]

I have experienced blurs as well but not as bad as what u guys posted here. i also have all the settings related to blur turned off.

Been a while too since this bug has been in place yet it hasnt been addressed yet.

[Cyberiad]

Setting the antialias setting to MSAA removed ghost/frame-blending for me.

[Cyberiad]

Heat vision doesn't work in MSAA mode, just like TXAA. When antialiasing is off the ghosting/blending is still there.

[Lordred]

Bump

[Lordred]

bump till there is an acknowledgement.

[Cyberiad]

Lordred you can submit a support request and they will most likely tell you if it's a known issue/currently tracked in their system (Jira?).

[Wintersdark]

SiliconLife, on 08 September 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Setting the antialias setting to MSAA removed ghost/frame-blending for me.

as Lordred said in the OP. However, MSAA comes with a heavy performance cost in this engine.

[Cyberiad]

Wintersdark, on 11 September 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

as Lordred said in the OP. However, MSAA comes with a heavy performance cost in this engine.

Not only that but heat vision does not work when MSAA or TXAA is selected as the AA option, making these settings entirely unusable.

[Lordred]

Bump for a dev acknowledgement of issue.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yeah this it the Motion blur bug, been there since that first patch when they setup DX11 support.

Its happening on Nvidia, Its happening on ATI, its happening in DX9, its happening in DX11.

Lower fps seems to accentuate the issue.

Seems to be mostly on moving objects within the render scene, but I'm willing to bet that its a full pass on every frame, some shader effect w/e.

Might be an undefined line of code, so the engine is just defaulting the effect.

Figure it out and I'd bet there is a big bump in FPS across the board.

Needs to be fixed, hopefully soon, preferably very very soon.

Edited by Mister D, 13 September 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[Tahribator]

It happens to me too with an NVIDIA card. Here's an example:



As Mister D said, this problem is present since months.