162 replies to this topic

[Catra Lanis]

Viktor Drake, on 06 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

This is exactly how I feel.

There is not anything at all wrong with a niche game that caters to a specific playbase in fact that is the beauty of an established IP like Battletech and Mechwarrior. A smart game developer knows that they have a build in fan base that will stick with them game through everything EXCEPT total disregard of the established IP.

Seriously though, these game developers need to get it through their heads that a game doesn't need millions of players to be successful. The genre is just too damn saturated for that to ever really be the case anymore. Well that is the case unless someone comes up with something truly innovative but developers are too afraid of failure anymore to take a chance on that sort of thing.

Anyway, back to my point. SWTOR had a development budget of well over 200 million dollars and they release in a shareholder meeting that if they managed to acquire and maintain a mere 500,000 active subscribers that the game would be profitable and deemed a success. If a game with a 200 million budget can be deemed successful with 500k subscribers, it honestly should take only 50k or so subscribers to make a game like MWO which probably only had a 20 million or less development budget a pretty huge success. That being the case, use the IP and make the damn game for the fans. Quit trying to be everything to everyone because each and every game that has came out and tried to do this has failed. Instead select a target audience, in the case of an established IP, the fans and build it for them. If it is good enough, more fans will come, simple as that.

What you are describing is exactly how I felt about SWG the 7 years I spent there.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

I and many others have already said clans lasers are of need to be toned down but heat was not the way. .. damage was how it should have been nerf.... Clans are already running hot now most build will be running way to hot.... Not fun do not wanna.... .Damage on cerll should have been brought down to 10 from 11.5 cerml from 7 to 6...what ****** thinks heat is fun?????

Hell even doing some unnerfing of some IS tech.

So no i will not just suck it up there are better ways of going about balancing this game then what PGI has don that sucks the fun out of this game.

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 06 September 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Fire and Salt]

valrond, on 06 September 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

No, we're not "somehow" more important. We're the reason you are here posting and playing this game. This game wouldn't exist without the people that either played/play tabletop, played the previous mechwarrior games, and read the novels.

If you're going to piss on the battletech lore, why call it mechwarrior online, a battletech game?

I am a founder, and my opinion differs from yours on all subjects.


Have you ever played any of the other mechwarrior games?

In MW2, you could fly around without touching the ground, Lost a leg? No problem!

In MW3 you could just fill every 'Mech up with lasers, there was nothing like hardpoints that gave mechs a unique feel.

In MW4, the build system didn't even include crit spaces for anything but weapons. XL Engine 'mechs wouldn't die if the lost a side torso or 2.



How does MWO piss on lore more than any previous mechwarrior game? Please explain.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 06 September 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

I and many others have already said clans lasers are of need to be toned down but heat was not the way. .. damage was how it should have been nerf.... Clans are already running hot now most build will be running way to hot.... Not fun do not wanna.... .Damage on cerll should have been brought down to 10 from 11.5 cerml from 7 to 6...what ****** thinks heat is fun?????

Hell even doing some unnerfing of some IS tech.

So no i will not just suck it up there are better ways of going about balancing this game then what PGI has don that sucks the fun out of this game.

I am with you. If Clan mechs were over-performing, then nerf the damage a bit. Right now all my Clan builds are actually less heat efficient than my IS builds. Hell I got a 6 ML, 1 PPC, 1 AC/10 Battlemaster with 18 DHS sitting at a higher heat efficiency than my 6 C-ER ML, 1 C-ER LL, 2MG Nova with 21 DHS. Pretty ridiculous that I can run 25 tons of weapons on 3 DHS less and get more heat efficiency than running 11 tons of weapons on a Clan mech.

[MischiefSC]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I am a founder, and my opinion differs from yours on all subjects.


Have you ever played any of the other mechwarrior games?

In MW2, you could fly around without touching the ground, Lost a leg? No problem!

In MW3 you could just fill every 'Mech up with lasers, there was nothing like hardpoints that gave mechs a unique feel.

In MW4, the build system didn't even include crit spaces for anything but weapons. XL Engine 'mechs wouldn't die if the lost a side torso or 2.



How does MWO piss on lore more than any previous mechwarrior game? Please explain.

Your blatantly realistic observations are not appreciated here. Hey, how many shots did you get every 10 seconds in, well, any prior BT game online? More than 1?

How about PPFLD/DoT? What was that? Some either did everything, including lasers, like PPFLD or they did everything DoT?

How'd you love the indirect fire on the missiles on all those prior BT titles? Wasn't your thing?

Of course it was impossible to have mixed tech in any viable method... right? Wait, wait, you also couldn't really use Clan tech if you were IS.... right?

MW:O actually has more attention to lore in its balancing, more inclusion of BT rules than any and every other BT title for the computer.

It's also the first one to really approach the idea of IS vs Clans in MP, why? Because nobody else even started to approach any sort of balance on IS vs Clans without Plot Armor or requiring all Clanners to play like genetically engineered semi-autistic idiot freaks who also believed firmly in slavery and totalitarian fascism and irrational self-imposed restrictions on how they fight.

The truth is that 99% of the would-be Clanners would find excuses to drop all the Clan restrictions that resulted in the Clans losing in lore the moment it involved them, you know, losing. Almost everyone who would play OP Clans would play them because they're OP. You would never, ever, at any point, populate 10 vs 12 matches with unbalanced Clan mechs. You'd have newbies hating grinding IS mechs as absolute fodder for vet players running Clan mechs with regular human (IS) tactics. The game would die out because nobody save a handful of people would play IS in that environment.

Viktor Drake, on 06 September 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I am with you. If Clan mechs were over-performing, then nerf the damage a bit. Right now all my Clan builds are actually less heat efficient than my IS builds. Hell I got a 6 ML, 1 PPC, 1 AC/10 Battlemaster with 18 DHS sitting at a higher heat efficiency than my 6 C-ER ML, 1 C-ER LL, 2MG Nova with 21 DHS. Pretty ridiculous that I can run 25 tons of weapons on 3 DHS less and get more heat efficiency than running 11 tons of weapons on a Clan mech.

6MLs is 30 damage at 270m, plus 10 pts for the AC10 out to 400m, 40 pts total. 6 CERMLs is 44 out to (what is it now, 350 or 400?) and an extra 11 pts for the CERLL out to nearly 800m, plus 2 MGs with debatable tactical value.

One is 40pts within 270m, 10 pts out to 400. The other is 55 pts out to ~400m, 11 pts to 800m.

almost 30% more damage and around 100% more functional fighting range.

Run 4 x CERMLs instead of 6. You'll have comparable damage and still have superior range and suddenly superior heat management.

The problem we're dealing with now is everyone got used to boating 6+LLs worth of firepower *in addition* to a couple heavy hitter weapons. Now that's not viable; you're going to do better with ~4 CERMLs + SRMs/LRMs/ACs or other non-energy firepower. Learn to rock the LB5Xs or get good use out of the UACs. Find a stagger-fired LRM build that works or boat up some SRMs.

The problem isn't that Clan weapons are too hot - it's that just like IS mechs you can no longer boat 50+pts of 400m+ ranged hitscan lasers and run it cool.

The problem is your build is bad.

[Diablobo]

The OP not only betrayed his ignorance by stating that he thinks this is a first person shooter, but he also completely failed when he said "screw the fanbase" and called for rejecting the lore. This game would not exist if not for the lore and its rabidly obsessive fanbase, and the devs who ignore their wishes do so at their own peril. No game with such a steep learning curve is going to survive without its lore aficianado support. Why on earth would anyone want to play this game that is so hard to get into when they can get their FPS fix from so many easier to learn games? This game would be DEAD without the lore fiends, and if you piss them off, you deserve to fail.

Every step that PGI takes towards making initial invasion Clan mechs balanced and equally powerful as IS mechs pushes us lore hounds further and further away. We are battered gamers who will put up with insane amounts of abuse, but they are quickly reaching the breaking point. Every attempt to achieve IS parity is a step we take out the door.

[Diomed]

Clans had to be nerfed for CW, what nonsense. All PGI had to do was make clan mechs substantially more expensive to buy and REPLACE than IS mechs, problem solved. But that would be too complicated right?

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

no one is going to play for a side that is destined to lose most of the time....

You must never have played X-Com, or Dark Souls. Some people like a challenge. Then again, some people whine and cry if they can't IDDQD/IDKFA. With all due respect, if you want balance, try Combat for the Atari 2600. Both tanks were balanced, though some would whine that the colors should have been the same.

[-Natural Selection-]

nerf away. We will always win..

[Johnny Reb]

Mickey Knoxx, on 06 September 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

nerf away. We will always win..

Hell yes!

[MischiefSC]

MW:O is truer to lore than any prior BT computer game, depressing as that may be.

Clans more expensive than IS mechs! That's perfect! Those of us with hundreds of millions of cbills, because we've played a long time. Also we could just buy them for cash... great idea, you can even sell gold ammo with them while you're at it with making people grind harder/pay real cash for the intentionally superior gear!

As to those who say people don't want 'balance'.... actually all those titles were balanced. In Dark Souls do players get to play as end game Boss enemies against new players? No, no they don't, because inherently imbalanced isn't fun. There is no PvP title that involves one side being inherently all around better than the other on a player to player level. That would, in fact, be a terrible game.

What I find ironic is people essentially arguing 'This game is terrible because my side isn't massively, inherently superior and people shouldn't have to work super hard or pay cash to join it and have a massive advantage. You're all just whiners because you won't let me have a huge advantage and just expect to lose most the time!'

Then go on to say the problem is that everyone who recognizes that a PvP game that is inherently imbalanced to favor one side is a bad game are just weak for.... not wanting to play an actual challenging game. This argument isn't about nerfing the Clans, it's about making Clan vs IS a balanced challenge and some people not wanting a balanced challenge - they want to play with an advantage.

[FatYak]

Dirkdaring, on 06 September 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

I play IS. Which part of my jager kicking the crap out of a madcat did you not get?

I have 1 clan mech. A kitfox. Which I have played a whole 4 matches in.

Your whole argument is that because your good in your jager there is no problem?

[FatYak]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 September 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

Can balance be achieved through telling the players of one faction that they just have to accept that they're going to lose because the other faction is stronger? Absolutely not.

I'm really glad some people can accept this is a major issue leading into community warfare.

Adhering to BT lore like dogma will be the single biggest thing in my opinion that will undermine community warfare

[FatYak]

Diablobo, on 06 September 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

The OP not only betrayed his ignorance by stating that he thinks this is a first person shooter, but he also completely failed when he said "screw the fanbase" and called for rejecting the lore. This game would not exist if not for the lore and its rabidly obsessive fanbase, and the devs who ignore their wishes do so at their own peril. No game with such a steep learning curve is going to survive without its lore aficianado support. Why on earth would anyone want to play this game that is so hard to get into when they can get their FPS fix from so many easier to learn games? This game would be DEAD without the lore fiends, and if you piss them off, you deserve to fail.

Every step that PGI takes towards making initial invasion Clan mechs balanced and equally powerful as IS mechs pushes us lore hounds further and further away. We are battered gamers who will put up with insane amounts of abuse, but they are quickly reaching the breaking point. Every attempt to achieve IS parity is a step we take out the door.

I think you just proved how ignorant you are of the need for balance sides going into community warfare

Give me a break, you really think everyone here is here specifically because of a love of lore?? there will be reams of people here who only ever knew MW as a computer game and not a TT game with an extensive lore behind it.

Face it, there are a large portion of the fanbase of this game that are not interested in BT lore, they want a fun balanced game.

Edited by FatYak, 06 September 2014 - 07:16 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Community warfare is going to disappoint. Just prepare!

[FatYak]

00ohDstruct, on 06 September 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

You must never have played X-Com, or Dark Souls. Some people like a challenge. Then again, some people whine and cry if they can't IDDQD/IDKFA. With all due respect, if you want balance, try Combat for the Atari 2600. Both tanks were balanced, though some would whine that the colors should have been the same.

Never played either of them, don't understand your IDDQD whatever the rest is......

Havn't seen an Atari 2600 in 20 years

So you all for having a game where it is inherently stacked against one side? Hows that going to work in the long run for you?

Take your blinkers off people

[Impyrium]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Basically it works like this... most of the people here did not play table top, they do not care about the ins and outs of lore, they have not read every novel that was produced regarding battletech. We play with a mouse and a keyborad (most of us). This this is not a turn based tabletop game with a 2D6 roll with modifiers or whatever the battletech vernacular is/was.

Oh yes? And where do you get your statistics from, exactly? Because even though non-BattleTech players certainly make up a lot of this community, that is no reason to not try and keep MechWarrior close to what it's based on.

If they wanted to do something significantly different, they should have called the game 'Solaris: Online' or something, so they could do their own spinoff.

Also, sometimes I wonder whether we really should have random elements in this game. Accuracy, for one.

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Give me a break, you really think everyone here is here specifically because of a love of lore?? there will be reams of people here who only ever knew MW as a computer game and not a TT game with an extensive lore behind it.

Yeah. That's so... ignorant to state. I'd say it's the other way around- I think most of the non-BattleTech players left a long time ago. Frankly what's left of the community are the hardcore lore fans, that are staying simply because it is the only way to play a modern MechWarrior game.

[FatYak]

AUSwarrior24, on 06 September 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Frankly what's left of the community are the hardcore lore fans, that are staying simply because it is the only way to play a modern MechWarrior game.

In your words, "where do you get your statistic from?"

[SaltBeef]

If you want to play a game where teams are balanced try https://www.heavygear.com/pledge I may try it.
Clans are supposed a have a 300 years tech advantage.

Edited by SaltBeef, 06 September 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Harsh title, but it has some truth in it

Basically it works like this... most of the people here did not play table top, they do not care about the ins and outs of lore, they have not read every novel that was produced regarding battletech. We play with a mouse and a keyborad (most of us). This this is not a turn based tabletop game with a 2D6 roll with modifiers or whatever the battletech vernacular is/was.

It goes like this... either they get the clan / IS balance to a reasonable level or community warfare is dead. If you end up with one side of the fight with excessively powerful mech's as you guys constantly state lore dictates they should be you will end up with a community warfare group where the only players playing IS will be those with a long involvement with BT

• Anyone without an affiliation with lore will not sign up for a side where they are destined to lose most fights most of the time
  
• New players without an affiliation with battletech lore will want to have a chance at winning and therefore jump on clan tech which makes the idea of clan v's IS in community warfare pointless
  
• This is essentially a first person shooter in big stompy robots, like most other mechwarrior games before it. if you wanted strictly battletech lore this was never going to be it, and if you really thought that i think you had some wishful thinking going on there
  
• If you want strictly battletech lore, play tabletop
  
• where are all the threads in these forums asking for inclusion of any battletech rules/lore that made no sense in TT (im sure they were there, all TT games have them)
  
• If the clan v;s IS balance is not achieved, community warfare is dead before it starts, and MWO will remain what it is now. A15 minute robot shooting fest on limited maps and a few hardcore battletech guys complaining that its not TT rules and another bunch of casual players who really dont care, they just want to shoot things and have a chance of winning some matches

no one is going to play for a side that is destined to lose most of the time....

A faulty Generalization. I came here to fight against the Clans. Those horribly OP you can't beat them Clans. So your wrong that NOBODY is going to play for a side destined to lose most of the time...