162 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

As i say to all the people who think asymmetrical balancing is a good idea: which side would you play? so far they all said clans.

obviously.

Personally i have no loyalty to any faction, and will play the mechs i like the most at the time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 September 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

As i say to all the people who think asymmetrical balancing is a good idea: which side would you play? so far they all said clans.

obviously.

Personally i have no loyalty to any faction, and will play the mechs i like the most at the time.

Another faulty generalization. Look above you sir.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 September 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Another faulty generalization. Look above you sir.

you are part of a very small minority. a minority that would need to be a majority if asymmetrical balance were to be successful.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 08 September 2014 - 06:26 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Game should have started in 3026. releaced all the clasic TT mechs and CW. Moved on to 1 person mini missions with a decent AI then expand it to full12 vs.12 PVE. then releace the clans for a massive PVE clan warfare simulating the clan invation of the IS. then Move forward in time and blend everything. then take it one step forwared into the future some time around 3726.
that is easly 10 years of content.

[Gyrok]

The Basilisk, on 06 September 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

Since all those players who have too just 'suck it up' are mostly also those players that are wearing the founders tag and are responsible for the mere existence of this game your statement is a bit rude at least bordering to kick into the face for all those founding this game because it was advertised as *Battletech game* ( see the title on the very top of this page It reads Mechwarrior Online a Battletech game ).
What those ppl wanted to see was Battletech.
Not some other mech arcade shooter stealing from a franchise that was violated and extorted for some quicky flash sales over and over again.
If you say there is a majority of ppl who are just not intrested in the way Battletech lore ( everything in this game...the game itself comes from battletech ) functions, I'm completely fine with that.

JUST

LEAVE

GO AWAY

Play Battlefield, Hawken or Titanfall or what ever but leave Battletech alone.

I'm fine with waiting an other year till pgi got the full CW up and running with segregated Clan and IS queues and 12 vs 10 IS vs Clan maps.
That will be the point where IS vs Clan gameplay gen be balanced.
The whole point about Claninvasion and Clan tech is that it is 300 years more advanced than anything the IS can field.
The very nature of the Claninvasion gameplay should be the desperate attemp to stop an army genetically bread for war, driving mechs that are able to defeat IS units twice their size.

That this can only function with separated IS Clan rosters and asymetric drop and mission profiles was obvious to everyone but pgi just lacks the recources and technical know how to advance this features fast enough. ( also something ovious to anyone who observed MWO from beta up to now)

Take Battletech and MWO as its decendant as it is or just go away.
You won't get anything successfull out of something that just looks like BT but only viotates and perverts its nature.

This....

[Joseph Mallan]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Harsh title, but it has some truth in it

Basically it works like this... most of the people here did not play table top, they do not care about the ins and outs of lore, they have not read every novel that was produced regarding battletech. We play with a mouse and a keyborad (most of us). This this is not a turn based tabletop game with a 2D6 roll with modifiers or whatever the battletech vernacular is/was.

It goes like this... either they get the clan / IS balance to a reasonable level or community warfare is dead. If you end up with one side of the fight with excessively powerful mech's as you guys constantly state lore dictates they should be you will end up with a community warfare group where the only players playing IS will be those with a long involvement with BT

• Anyone without an affiliation with lore will not sign up for a side where they are destined to lose most fights most of the time
  
• New players without an affiliation with battletech lore will want to have a chance at winning and therefore jump on clan tech which makes the idea of clan v's IS in community warfare pointless
  
• This is essentially a first person shooter in big stompy robots, like most other mechwarrior games before it. if you wanted strictly battletech lore this was never going to be it, and if you really thought that i think you had some wishful thinking going on there
  
• If you want strictly battletech lore, play tabletop
  
• where are all the threads in these forums asking for inclusion of any battletech rules/lore that made no sense in TT (im sure they were there, all TT games have them)
  
• If the clan v;s IS balance is not achieved, community warfare is dead before it starts, and MWO will remain what it is now. A15 minute robot shooting fest on limited maps and a few hardcore battletech guys complaining that its not TT rules and another bunch of casual players who really dont care, they just want to shoot things and have a chance of winning some matches

no one is going to play for a side that is destined to lose most of the time....

Then most players should take a little time to learn about the game they are getting into before they complain.
Changing the Clans is like Allowing Cloaking to Federation ships in Star Trek, Smugglers the use of Light Sabers in Star Wars and other similar examples of Canon influence of game mechanics.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 September 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Then most players should take a little time to learn about the game they are getting into before they complain.
Changing the Clans is like Allowing Cloaking to Federation ships in Star Trek, Smugglers the use of Light Sabers in Star Wars and other similar examples of Canon influence of game mechanics.

and sticking to ludicrously overpowered clans (which have been admitted to being a bad idea by their original creator) is terrible game mechanics in a game like this.

I play clan mechs, i prefer their style. I don't think they need to be better than IS ones, just different (though the current laser nerfs seem.. odd.. IS strength is their ACs, clans is their lasers (due to the small heatsinks) but everyone just compares IS lasers to clan ones, and forgets to mention IS ACs)

[SaltBeef]

I guess I just am and hard dog. I hated the 2nd highlander movie that ruined the perfect 1st flick. I also was disappointed when they made starbuck a chick in the new battlestar galactica show. I thought Enterprise was the best star trek because they were not all a bunch of shakespear quoting dorks in tights. If mankind goes into space it would be Aliens James Cameron style. Just in case you run into a hostile gigantic spacebug race That like the taste of human flesh. Not all change is good or wanted Nostalgia has it's rewards. Mechs will never have human pilots they will all be earth dominating hunter killer hunting down the last remnant's of the human race Skynet style openheimer was not op sky net was,

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 08 September 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

and sticking to ludicrously overpowered clans (which have been admitted to being a bad idea by their original creator) is terrible game mechanics in a game like this.

I play clan mechs, i prefer their style. I don't think they need to be better than IS ones, just different (though the current laser nerfs seem.. odd.. IS strength is their ACs, clans is their lasers (due to the small heatsinks) but everyone just compares IS lasers to clan ones, and forgets to mention IS ACs)

And thats cool. I disagree with your opinion, but please continue to state your case. The Original Creator who left the game. Yeah I know. And the game has lasted quite some time since his departure. Yes its a niche game but it has a strong and passionate group of players that range from Astrophysicist to Infantry Marines.

I came here to beat up THE Clans not House Kurita with different skins.

[Jaxom Adar]

GumbyC2C, on 06 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Nerfing clans like this was not the way to achieve balance. Fixing the matchmaker was the right solution.
You cannot get a good read on the balance without two things:
Do some all clan vs all IS on the test server and give the IS a serious tonnage advantage.
Implement the side torso destruction heat penalty.
Until you do that, you have no idea what the real issues with clan weapons in MWO are.

Didn't the NGNG do this. They were doing the 10v12 drops. Both as Clan and IS they won as IS with proper tactics and with Clan the same way. In the "lore" the way to beat the Clan was fighting where their superior range was negated by terrain. Tweaking a few things here and there in the "name of balance" is well and good, but they don't need to hit it all to make clan exactly in line with IS.

[Almond Brown]

Anyone who wants MWO to survive with the Clans as the OP buggers they are portrayed in the Lore have but one choice. Send PGI more money. Otherwise, those who don't like to have one side being OP in a game, will depart, leaving the few niche, hardcore neck-beards to do their thing. Sadly, they will also take their wallets with them.

MW4 ended with the allowance of MIXED Tech (it took awhile granted) but in the end, any OP Tech or Race is a death knell. It has been proven in the past and I doubt gamers have changed that much. Hell if anything, those who claim to be "hardcore" fans of most "older games" are dwindling in numbers very fast.

This will be the last MW game made in my gaming lifetime I am pretty sure. I would hate to see it die prematurely because the Lorest's want their Clans to be OP even if that is what kills off MWO do to lack of funding.

MWT is already dead. Apparently, the hardcore BT boardgamers could not keep that one going. So one down already...

[Gyrok]

Jaxom Adar, on 08 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Didn't the NGNG do this. They were doing the 10v12 drops. Both as Clan and IS they won as IS with proper tactics and with Clan the same way. In the "lore" the way to beat the Clan was fighting where their superior range was negated by terrain. Tweaking a few things here and there in the "name of balance" is well and good, but they don't need to hit it all to make clan exactly in line with IS.

That was a sick joke...seriously...it was just a charade to shut people up, and not conducted seriously at all.

Edited by Gyrok, 08 September 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 08 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Anyone who wants MWO to survive with the Clans as the OP buggers they are portrayed in the Lore have but one choice. Send PGI more money. Otherwise, those who don't like to have one side being OP in a game, will depart, leaving the few niche, hardcore neck-beards to do their thing. Sadly, they will also take their wallets with them.

This word you keep using, Neckbeard...

I don't think it applies to the players you think it does.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 September 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Gyrok]

Almond Brown, on 08 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Anyone who wants MWO to survive with the Clans as the OP buggers they are portrayed in the Lore have but one choice. Send PGI more money. Otherwise, those who don't like to have one side being OP in a game, will depart, leaving the few niche, hardcore neck-beards to do their thing. Sadly, they will also take their wallets with them.

MW4 ended with the allowance of MIXED Tech (it took awhile granted) but in the end, any OP Tech or Race is a death knell. It has been proven in the past and I doubt gamers have changed that much. Hell if anything, those who claim to be "hardcore" fans of most "older games" are dwindling in numbers very fast.

This will be the last MW game made in my gaming lifetime I am pretty sure. I would hate to see it die prematurely because the Lorest's want their Clans to be OP even if that is what kills off MWO do to lack of funding.

MWT is already dead. Apparently, the hardcore BT boardgamers could not keep that one going. So one down already...

MWT was the fault of IGP, not the gamers themselves.

Also, they chose what was likely the most balanced, while all the while being the most boring timeline, in the entirety of the BattleTech universe.

Honestly, I like BT/MW, but I am all for the clans. I would not play inner sphere unless waiting for clans. That is just the way it is. 3025 era BT might be really, really great...but I do not care for it. I would have been a founder for MWT if they had done 3050...I was actually waiting for the game to launch, and once they moved to 3050 tech, I would have played...

If I wanted to play 3025 tech, I would play megamek.

As it sits...I think you few who are against 10 vs 12 do not realize how many there are that want 10 vs 12. In fact, I would wager you are likely the minority. BT has such strong faction ties for players that loyalty to a specific faction becomes hard ingrained into most players.

Now, you might lose a few of the Call of Duty crowd, but really...who cares? We were happy before the CoD crowd showed up, and we will be happy after they get impatient/tired of the game/whatever...and move on.

No sense in making the game less enjoyable for the majority of the active player base to try to cater to the CoD flavor of the month crowd that will move on eventually anyway.

-my 2 kerenskys

Edited by Gyrok, 08 September 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

And thats cool. I disagree with your opinion, but please continue to state your case. The Original Creator who left the game. Yeah I know. And the game has lasted quite some time since his departure. Yes its a niche game but it has a strong and passionate group of players that range from Astrophysicist to Infantry Marines.

I came here to beat up THE Clans not House Kurita with different skins.

Oh come on.

Everyone likes beating up House Kurita.

I get, appreciate and love BT. That is, in part, why I'm all for balancing away from 10 v 12 and in to 12 v 12. The Clans were balanced by behavior and poor choices (and plot armor) which is absolutely impossible in a game like this. That's the fundamental issue.

For 10 v 12 to work you'd need to control how players thing and make rules on how they can fight and behave.

You would also inherently be creating a game that consisted of veterans waiting in queue to stomp Joe, WarHippy, maybe two other players + whatever poor SOB newbies are around as 95% of the games population moves into the inherently superior Clan tech. The very nature of what makes the Clans the Clans (Clan culture, slavery/fascism, obsession with dueling over leadership competency, efficiency, pride/ego taken to unbalanced and manic extremes, etc) would get washed away in a horde of 'Sweet, it's like getting to play a Protoss Archon against people playing as individual Zerglings! Awesome sauce, I win all the time just like in kindergarten!'

There probably are a lot more people in favor of 10v12 than you might expect - most of them however are not that way because they want to play with all the limitations a Clanner should have. They're not going to have leadership in their org settled by 1v1 duels. They're not going to make poor tactical decisions that lose the whole game because they are hyper-obsessed with efficiency and peoples perception of how honorable they are. They want 10v12 because they want to play with a huge advantage against everyone who hasn't yet got $50-100 million cbills banked or who isn't happy spending $240 on a computer game for the P2W experience.

Which is what we're talking about with 10v12 and super-expensive Clans. You're talking about full-on, everyone happy to participate P2W. You can either grind a stupid long time... or open your wallet to buy gear that gives you a massive battlefield advantage.

What in the world makes you think that's going to only attract actual BT enthusiasts? It's going to stuff the game with even more entitlement minded 'I paid money so I get to win more often' twits and it's going to make getting and retaining new players effectively impossible.

This has nothing to do with the CoD crowd. It never did. Not wanting to play an insanely imbalanced PvP game doesn't make someone somehow less patient or invested in complex games. This has to do with MW:O not being a P2W extravaganza and actually taking the BT IP and making the PvP aspect of it playable in a 1v1, one player one mech scenario and not a 1 player controls 1 squad, a GM is watching over the match making sure proper Clan rules of engagement are followed scenario.

10v12 will never work in an online game. It's like saying you can have world peace if everyone just gets along. It's not a realistic concept.

[Joseph Mallan]

I bought a HellSlinger last week. All I got was a super cool paint job!

And the Clanners should be arguing for Stars over Lances BEFORE CW hits (IF).

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Get a load of this match I just walked out of....



The Clan nerfs are working!!!! Keep up the good work boys.

[Joseph Mallan]

I call shenanigans!

All the players have the same name!

[SaltBeef]

Mix tech would be OK! IF it was era specific and also only allowed a few items say "2" clan weapon systems to be installed onto a IS mech You got your ac10 1 Med laser and 1 Clan ER Med laser plus 1 Clan ER small 3052 ish onto your Centurian. Never any more than 2 weapons ever after that and power issues maybe.
Only if salvaged very rare occurance Like Diablo once every 1000 matches you may get the weapon and it can only be installed on that mech in the battle only 2 can be mounted.. Cannot be bought.

Edited by SaltBeef, 08 September 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[Fut]

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

I am a forever Clans men AND I SERIOUSLY want 10v12. However it is going to take A ton of time to get something like that functional, especially for everything the MM has to do already. It confounds if you throw more complexities into an equation that already has enough variables.

Wouldn't using a Battle Value score help lower the complexities of the MM?
Clan Mechs would/should have higher BV than IS Mechs, so set a BV value, and let that be the balancing factor.