237 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Tarl Cabot, on 07 September 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Just a reminder that those high damage points are not just the damage done by your weapons directly but that the majority of the damage was done by initiating ammo explosions, be it on either/both of the mechs you killed or another mech that someone else may or may not have finished off.

That's a good point. I'm usually too busy just trying to keep from being one-shotted to bother worrying if the damage came from ammo assplosssions. The majority of kills come from stripping mech's legs as quickly as possible which is where they also happen to store their ammo. Makes sense.

Edited by lockwoodx, 07 September 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Aernir]

Great thread, to start off with. Been a fan since the first one of these a month or so ago.appreciating your work since the first one of these. Just a quick question for Kiiyor, do you prefer data in bulk or small packets? Basically, should I send you my EOM SS daily or weekly (dates included in case of balance changes)?

Edited by Aernir, 07 September 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[ShinobiHunter]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 06 September 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Spoiler

I'm sorry. Don't hurt me

Edited by ShinobiHunter, 07 September 2014 - 02:02 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Pht, on 07 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Kiiyor, a few quick questions.

What's the image limit?

It's between 90 and 100 I think - but to be honest, it's between 90 and OMG HOW MANY MORE STUPID IMAGES DO I NEED TO GRAFT TOGETHER. When you hit the limit, the post preview will show all the images it can, and will convert the rest to links.

Pht, on 07 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

I did a very quick and light scan of the text only (none of the pics) - you discuss your "balance theorem" yet I don't see it defined and stated anywhere in your post. Is it there and I've missed it, or in another of your posts? If it's not, would you consider definig what you mean by proper/good "balance" so we can have an idea of where you're headed towards?

Ah, the theorem. I know I mention it, but really, it's the dirtiest of science:

If the Clans are around 30% more effective than the IS (in terms of Kills/mech) - then we don't need to nerf clan effectiveness by 30%, as an increase in Time To Kill for one faction will probably produce a proportionate decrease for the other. THUS, an effectiveness reduction of 15% should theoretically allow the two to meet in the middle.

This is a dirty, dirty theorem however, as there are just so many variables to take into account - and many, many of those variables are the IS mechs in the bottom two thirds of the individual variant performance pivot tables near the bottom of the OP.

Cavale, on 07 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'm gonna suppose that desync'd match results shouldn't be submitted? Because I just got wasted two matches running from the game connection dumping and a spider wrecking my day.

Submit them! In a smaller sample, a desynch death would be an outlier that might bork the sample. However, I think I have enough matches now to smother that sort of case lovingly with a pillow to ease it's suffering.

One of my earlier fears was that people would only be giving me their awesome matches, but I've got a filter that finds all matches with their name and marks them as a contributor. I actually filter these out of the mech comparison stuff for that reason.

[Bhelogan]

You might have answered this, but,I didn't read through every post on the page. I have a lot of screen shots I would be willing to send your way from over the last year, however a lot of these are from private matches for RHOD and such. Are you using those in your data?

[N0MAD]

It seemed that the beter performing IS mechs tended to have very popular umm Pay real $ variants.
Not being real good at deciphering stats, can someone tell us the % of these um real $ variants used vs the Cbill variants, and how their stats varied.?
TY.

[Kiiyor]

N0MAD, on 07 September 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

It seemed that the beter performing IS mechs tended to have very popular umm Pay real $ variants.
Not being real good at deciphering stats, can someone tell us the % of these um real $ variants used vs the Cbill variants, and how their stats varied.?
TY.

I'll try and whip something up for you today.

ALSO, THIS JUST IN:



I need your help, intrepid mechwarriors! I need EOM screenshots from this test! Let us band together in the name of SCIENCE.

[vash021]

I demand that from now on
every long ass post has a

TLDR version

[Kiiyor]

vash021, on 07 September 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

I demand that from now on
every long ass post has a

TLDR version

LOL, mine does. It's just that even my TL;DR is longer than most posts.

I just checked, and there's almost 7,000 freaking words there. Yikes.

Kiiyor, on 06 September 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

• Clan mechs, in your average matches, out damage and out kill IS mechs.
  
• Clan mechs are performing better than they were pre-4x3, and the 'Sphere is doing worse. I think 4x3 and New players are partly to blame for this, as detailed in the big-worded bit above.
  
• However…
  
• The IS absolutely have mechs that can compete with Clan mechs.
  
• The good clan mechs (Crow, Wolves) are very, very good. They're at the top, looking down in derision at everything else.
  
• Good IS mechs are also very good.
  
• The Clans have some under achievers. So do the IS. The trouble is, IS under achievers are LEGION, and bad Clan robots will decimate bad 'Sphere robots, any day of the week, playing with one hand tied behind their back whilst being half ****faced on pure, hallucinogenic Absinthe.
  
• IS mechs kill with less damage (more efficiently).
  
• The Clans straight up do more damage.
  
• In a match between good Clan mechs and good IS mechs, these two figures almost balance each other out.
  
• The hate on IS mediums appears to be entirely misplaced (for the good mediums, anyway). There doesn't appear to be any one IS weight class letting the team down, and I was very, very surprised at how closely each weight bracket performs in terms of kills/mech. The trouble is the Clan heavies and Assaults - they are going from strength to strength.

Sort of TL;DR: my humble opinion - elevator speech:



While I think the Clans have a definite advantage, I don't think it's as large as everyone believes. For the IS, there is a combination of BAD ROBOTS (to quote lord Vassago) and new IS players that are making the Clans look better than they are. When all the Clan mechs are released for CBills, they may very well have the same new player problems the 'Sphere currently has. Will players be patient enough for this? ...LOL - probably not.

[vash021]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

LOL, mine does. It's just that even my TL;DR is longer than most posts.

I just checked, and there's almost 7,000 freaking words there. Yikes.

add a TLDR in your TLDR
I have the attention span of a squirrel

[LCCX]

Kiiyor, on 06 September 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

I'm also taking requests!
If you want data crunched in specific ways, let me know, and I'll try to accommodate you.

Could you please do a simple % chance that any particular mech chassis was on the winning or losing side of a match?
e.g. if a single Jenner-D was present in 6 matches (Jenner-side: 1 won and 5 lost), a pair of Jenner-Ds were on the same side in 2 more matches (both won by the side with the Jenners), then I'd want the result to be 50% win:loss for the Jenner-D.

[Kiiyor]

LCCX, on 07 September 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Could you please do a simple % chance that any particular mech chassis was on the winning or losing side of a match?
e.g. if a single Jenner-D was present in 6 matches (Jenner-side: 1 won and 5 lost), a pair of Jenner-Ds were on the same side in 2 more matches (both won by the side with the Jenners), then I'd want the result to be 50% win:loss for the Jenner-D.

You intrigue me, sir. I am indeed doing up a "WINNINGEST" section now, and I believe your idea and my data will go together like a stationary Commando and massed SRM's. Teaser:

[Kiiyor]

Aernir, on 07 September 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Great thread, to start off with. Been a fan since the first one of these a month or so ago.appreciating your work since the first one of these. Just a quick question for Kiiyor, do you prefer data in bulk or small packets? Basically, should I send you my EOM SS daily or weekly (dates included in case of balance changes)?

Bhelogan, on 07 September 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

You might have answered this, but,I didn't read through every post on the page. I have a lot of screen shots I would be willing to send your way from over the last year, however a lot of these are from private matches for RHOD and such. Are you using those in your data?

Yes, to both of you fine individuals.

[pulupulu]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

lol, wow, that means the moment they turn on clan vs IS again, it will be a stomp. Again.

Now I am curious which mech if a team have more of, would improve win chance. My money on direwolf.

Edited by pulupulu, 07 September 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Kiiyor]

pulupulu, on 07 September 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

lol, wow, that means the moment they turn on clan vs IS again, it will be a stomp. Again.

Now I am curious which mech if a team have more of, would improve win chance. My money on direwolf.

Direwolf, MadCat and surprisingly the StormCrow. The Crow gathers more kills than any other clan mech, but it IS the harbinger of the dead in most mythologies.

I remember that there was around a 90% win rate for the clans in the last test - I too am interested in seeing how the recent balance changes for the clans will affect the data. There's another test coming up soon. EVERYONE GIVE ME DATA.

[pulupulu]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Direwolf, MadCat and surprisingly the StormCrow. The Crow gathers more kills than any other clan mech, but it IS the harbinger of the dead in most mythologies.

stormcrow is the king?

i hope direwolf is at least the queen?

honestly though, i have seen more bad timberwolf than there are bad stormcrow. Don't know if just me.

Edited by pulupulu, 07 September 2014 - 08:33 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Direwolf, MadCat and surprisingly the StormCrow. The Crow gathers more kills than any other clan mech, but it IS the harbinger of the dead in most mythologies.

I remember that there was around a 90% win rate for the clans in the last test - I too am interested in seeing how the recent balance changes for the clans will affect the data. There's another test coming up soon. EVERYONE GIVE ME DATA.

Well unless they address issues like:

> Every clan mech but 1 is within 5 tons of it's class weight limit.
Results: IS team likely to be out tonned.

> Every clan team is likely to have at least 1 Kit Fox.
Result: Clan teams will almost be guaranteed ECM.

> IS Teams have more chances to have have more "bad mechs" show up.
Result: Disadvantage before the match even begins.

Etc., then the testing will be problematic.




I also think spawn locations on some maps for skirmish are a big issue.

Moving at nearly the same speeds, Kit Foxes, Adders, Novas, Storm Crows, Summoners and Timber Wolves in any combination your team ends up with can all travel to a known enemy spawn point and quickly overwhelm a single lance starting the snowball effect.

In a perfect 3/3/3/3 scenario, that's 75% of your force moving into position as one unit - probably under ECM.


Just think about that last one, it's one we have no way to mitigate IS side.

Uniformity of travel speed for 6/8 available clan mechs is a huge, huge advantage and it has nothing to do with weapons - and can't be enforced IS side.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 September 2014 - 08:49 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Direwolf, MadCat and surprisingly the StormCrow. The Crow gathers more kills than any other clan mech, but it IS the harbinger of the dead in most mythologies.

PGI wants the Persian empire vs the 300. Luckily the 300 looses in the end.

[Kiiyor]

lockwoodx, on 07 September 2014 - 11:00 PM, said:

PGI wants the Persian empire vs the 300. Luckily the 300 looses in the end.

AWESOME FIGHT THOUGH

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Kiiyor, on 07 September 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

AWESOME FIGHT THOUGH

Pug enough in the solo queue and you get use to the shade.