117 replies to this topic

[juxstapo]

giving 'em a proper go now, promise

[Macksheen]

Terciel1976, on 16 October 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

It's more that nothing's right with them. They're slow 45-ton mechs with "meh" hardpoints and low mounts. The high-arm-mounted big gun capability of the BJ isn't there and they lack the ability to stack up enough lasers or missiles to really be good at either, instead being left with an inefficient mix.

Inflatable Fish, on 17 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

uh huh.

Yeah, don't listen to Terciel, he's crazy ;-)

[IllCaesar]

I've dropped all pretense of trying to use a heavy ballistic weapon on my 1X while using a STD engine, and I've been doing a lot better with it. Its definitely an alleyway fighter, excelling on Crimson Straight, Mining Collective, and River City. I used the extra weight I got from dropping the UAC5/ to add a LRM15. 4t LRM ammo, 2t MG ammo, 2 MLs, STD225, nothing spectacular but it gets the job of playing as a support mech done - LRMs for long-distance/out-of-sight enemies, MLs to keep the pressure on, and MGs to critseek once internals are exposed. Stick your butt to the back of a heavy or assault and it'll do well. Might try it with the XL225 I use on my others to see if I can do anything more with it, though its probably best with the STD due to the nature of the MG leading to long confrontations.

Still unsure about my 1AA. Switched from 2x PPCs to 2x LPLs, doing better most matches. Trying to avoid putting LRMs on this one as well, because really then the 1R can do everything this does but with one less AMS and one extra ML.

Anyways, main reason I came in here is the announcement of the Enforcer. I wonder how it'll perform in relation to the Vindicator. Obviously more ballistic reliant, less energy reliant, but otherwise its pretty similar. Interested to see how quirks, hitboxes, hardpoints and engine caps differentiate the two.

Tanar, on 20 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

the 1R is actually growing on me a lot, 3ML, TAG and a ALRM 10 w/ 2 tons of ammo. lob LRMs for the early part of the match and when i run out (or get down to the last few shots just in case i need them) hopefully enough of the enemy has been beaten up that i can finish stuff off with the MLs. gets into trouble alone but in a supporting role it does well for me. simple build but useful.

LRM20, 4x ML, TAG, XL225 - fairly similar, end up using all the ammo before I die, and since arms go before my side torsos, and LRM ammo is usually gone before the arms go, the reasons to take a STD (zombie if you place a ML in the head instead of TAG, spotting, shielding) are outweighed by the benefits of the XL (higher damage potential). It does pretty consistent numbers, usually over 300 damage and 10+ spots (I think I got 29 spots/TAG assists one match).

Edited by MarsAtlas, 20 October 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

honestly kinda forgot about my stives after the basic skills were finished, even speedtweaked it just is the wrong combination of slow big and armorless for my liking.

One day I might get around to buying 2 more.

[Inflatable Fish]

MonkeyCheese, on 20 October 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

honestly kinda forgot about my stives after the basic skills were finished, even speedtweaked it just is the wrong combination of slow big and armorless for my liking.

One day I might get around to buying 2 more.

so just how fast would a 45-tonner have to go for you to appreciate it? cause in my book, 99 kph is more than decent.

also, "big" and "armorless" are pretty far off the mark - in fact, people in this very thread have noted the amazing damage rolling capability of the chassis.

while I can't objectively say this is the be all end all of medium mechs (actually, the non-hero variants lean toward the "poor" category even in my book,) people are going way too far writing it off as the worst thing that could've happened to this weight class. I for one am hoping for some real tasty quirks in the Nov 5 patch so I can finally break 1000 damage in the Bluesmobile.

[jper4]

MarsAtlas, on 20 October 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

LRM20, 4x ML, TAG, XL225 - fairly similar, end up using all the ammo before I die, and since arms go before my side torsos, and LRM ammo is usually gone before the arms go, the reasons to take a STD (zombie if you place a ML in the head instead of TAG, spotting, shielding) are outweighed by the benefits of the XL (higher damage potential). It does pretty consistent numbers, usually over 300 damage and 10+ spots (I think I got 29 spots/TAG assists one match).

i think the reason i avoided the xl in mine is that i don;t have a lot of xl engines (and i hate swapping them out between mechs). i have tag in the arm for zombie mode ML naturally, but if i did go xl i'd move it to the head slot as well. no need to worry about zombie with an xl engine. may have to try that out (and squeeze in an extra ton of LRM ammo). how's the heat on it and do they fire the lrm 20 in one salvo or does it come out 10 and 10 like on grid iron (which is why i went to a 10 on that)

[Inflatable Fish]

the missile hardpoint on the 1R goes all the way up to 20 tubes.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

I'll revisit them after they've been quirked. While they can roll damage well, my problem with them is their severe lack of torso turning speed. For a pilot like me, they're too sniper-ish. I prefer brawlers, though.

[IllCaesar]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 October 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

the missile hardpoint on the 1R goes all the way up to 20 tubes.

Does that with all of them. The second missle slot on the SIB only goes up to 10, though.

As for how it runs, fairly cool. I run it with 3.5 tons of LRM ammo and 2 JJs, no AMS and 13 DHS, but its possible to run it with as little as 10 as long as you're careful with you're firing. I like to fire LRMs along my MLs for the impulse shake, so I mount extra heatsinks for direct fire support. I also fire the arms in separate groups, because its quite often I find myself in situations where one arm can hit and the other can't.

Heat-scale simulator, Caustic Valley (does well on this map)

http://keikun17.gith...tc=1&engine=225

Does the job. Nothing surprising or atypical, its a rather prototypical fire support build that has enough punch after the LRM ammo runs dry to fight other lights and mediums or provide another 5 DPS on a heavy/assault that is focusing on one of your heavies/assaults in a brawl. The TAG on its head allows for a lot of spot/TAG assists, and with the high placed LRM launcher, makes it pretty easy to farm kill assists.

I've seen plenty other builds do well, usually with heavy energy weapons, but they were nothing you couldn't already do on a Blackjack, and the range advantage of the MLs trumps the MPLs higher DPS in this role, so I had a ton of weight left over, and thought it was best to fill it with LRMs.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 21 October 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[ShadowbaneX]

UrsusMorologus, on 16 October 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

What exactly is wrong with these mechs?

It's not entirely that there's something wrong with the mechs, it's just that there's so much more speed out there that they're sorely lacking in comparison.

[UrsusMorologus]

ShadowbaneX, on 25 October 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

It's not entirely that there's something wrong with the mechs, it's just that there's so much more speed out there that they're sorely lacking in comparison.

Vindi with 235 is faster than Hunchi with 250, plus it can mount JJs. Seems like it should be plenty for a strike mech?

[ShadowbaneX]

UrsusMorologus, on 25 October 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Vindi with 235 is faster than Hunchi with 250, plus it can mount JJs. Seems like it should be plenty for a strike mech?

And, yet, it's still not enough. Everything else is still just too quick to make up for it. A bunch of heavies are well in to the 80s for speed, so, have again the tonnage and not to far behind on the speed.

[Inflatable Fish]

ShadowbaneX, on 25 October 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

And, yet, it's still not enough. Everything else is still just too quick to make up for it. A bunch of heavies are well in to the 80s for speed, so, have again the tonnage and not to far behind on the speed.

only slightly faster, but just look at the amount of hardpoints on the HBKs.

[Rando Slim]

So is the general consensus that Vindis are best for sniping or LRMing? I was wondering if its best to use a standard engine or not?

[IllCaesar]

Scrotacus 42, on 27 October 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

So is the general consensus that Vindis are best for sniping or LRMing? I was wondering if its best to use a standard engine or not?

They can roll damage like crazy. Take for example, this pic that was posted on r/OutreachHPG by SomeRandomGuy0



Only real issue with that though is what falls off first is their arms, where nearly all of the payload is, except for the SIB. Once those are gone, you've really got on ML/MPL in your head and your missile weapon, which honestly can't be any more powerful than your arm-mounted weapons with a STD. I use the STD on my 1X because I've gone triple-MG on it and it needs to brawl, but I use the XL on my others and still generally perform well. You really can do well with either, but I think if you're not planning to be in the thick of it, the XL is better since once your arms and left torso is gone, you've got almost no payload left anyways. Do you prefer to be the bright candle that burns out fast or the dim one that lasts much longer?

Edited by MarsAtlas, 27 October 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Inflatable Fish, on 21 October 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

so just how fast would a 45-tonner have to go for you to appreciate it? cause in my book, 99 kph is more than decent.

also, "big" and "armorless" are pretty far off the mark - in fact, people in this very thread have noted the amazing damage rolling capability of the chassis.

while I can't objectively say this is the be all end all of medium mechs (actually, the non-hero variants lean toward the "poor" category even in my book,) people are going way too far writing it off as the worst thing that could've happened to this weight class. I for one am hoping for some real tasty quirks in the Nov 5 patch so I can finally break 1000 damage in the Bluesmobile.

My shadowhawks all move 97.2.

[Inflatable Fish]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

My shadowhawks all move 97.2.

and that answers my question how?

[Rando Slim]

OK so Im trying that 4 medium laser/lrm 20 build but like......I've never used an LRM 20 before and holy bejeebus the spread on it is terrible, like even a mech sitting out in the open in front of you 300m away you MIGHT get 16-18 missiles to hit all over the place, like some of them miss anyway just for giggles. I still really like the idea of that build and will fiddle with it more, maybe with an xl-225 you could put artemis on it and just deal wit minimal heatsinks and only 3 tons of ammo?

The 1x build I have is pretty nice with an ER-PPC an LBx-10 and a medium laser in the head.

I have tried standard engine builds with a few of them......but then it seems like you really are limited to brawling as you just cant fit heavy long range stuff, yet somehow Im consistently doing 300-400 damage with a kill on the 1R with just 5 medium lasers, an srm-6 and AMS *shrug* so I dunno maybe its not as bad of a brawler as I thought. I will agree it feels too slow still, I love blackjacks but those really suck when you start out in them too. 84 kph is waaaaaayyy too slow when you can build a totally viable standard engine Orion that goes 80, and then of course theres the clan mechs........getting up to 93 is alright but still not fast enough for its intended role. In todays game environment you need the ability to bail ad run or split off quickly to find a good shooting angle in anything less than about 65 tons. Like 93 works well for 12 man maneuvers, it'll naturally stick with the team mostly, but in general I think a 45 tonner needs to be rolling around 110-130 kph. Its always felt weird to me that theres a huge gap of speeds between lights and mediums that goes unused. So you've got mechs that go from 142-170 kph,and then basically nothing viable below that save the 133 kph Cicada 3M until you get all the way down to 107 kph, and usually down in the mid to upper 90s. Im not saying that 97.2 is slow.......but its a big gap. The only exceptions are like the BJ-1x, the Vindi 1AA (which so far sucks), and like what a horrendously overbuilt Shadowhawk and the ultra rare troll builds for the Trebuchet 3C and Cent-D? So yea to me, there needs to be a competent inner sphere mech with good hitboxes in the 40-50 ton range that's MEANT to run at 110-130 kph.
I guess it just pisses me off I cant get the big engine cap size in ALL my Blackjacks and Vindicators, because 116 kph is right about where I feel a 45 tonner should be in the game we have today. Yea I know lore and stuff......

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 28 October 2014 - 02:53 AM.