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Moving Forward, A Discussion On Moderation


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#261 Escef

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:15 AM

View PostKraven Kor, on 10 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:


I've seen similar posts on other company's sites that were responded to, addressed, and became PR wins.

You cannot silence your critics; banning accounts won't help. It will just shuffle us off to voice our concerns / displeasure in other places where they have less control.

And they are welcome to try and sue me for slander or libel or stalking as I'm doing none of those things; they'd be laughed out of court. Especially given the number of complaints registered against them.

Bally's tried to sue me. I'm still laughing at them to this day, and they will still never see one red cent from me, and the whole reason the case was tossed? The sheer number of similar complaints against them.

You know what? I'm done with you and your psychotic need for attention.

#262 Kraven Kor

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:16 AM

Wait, Pay to Post?

Yeah, good luck with that.

Seriously, that is insane, and if there is any justice, should result in any company implementing such a policy on their own public website to immediately be laughed into bankruptcy.

Sorry. No, wait... no I'm not.

View PostEscef, on 10 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

You know what? I'm done with you and your psychotic need for attention.


I'm a happy little loner, so, yeah... dunno why you think that.

The only "attention" I want is for PGI to maybe actually give us the game they sold us in 2012.

#263 Aym

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:17 AM

View PostEscef, on 10 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I find it insulting that an ostensibly adult person would expect a post on a business's official Facebook page proclaiming that this person had reported them to the Better Business Bureau to be allowed to stay there. I mean, you had the the nerve, the gall, the naivete to expect they'd be cool with that? And when they took it down and blocked you, you had the nerve to be insulted and surprised?

The ONE time I reported a company to the BBB they contacted me immediately and took steps to resolve the complaint.

#264 Kraven Kor

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:20 AM

View PostAym, on 10 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

The ONE time I reported a company to the BBB they contacted me immediately and took steps to resolve the complaint.


And PGI did respond; it took weeks and all they did was give me free premium time. Not exactly what I was hoping for, and all I was hoping for was to send a message that they couldn't just ignore their Founders. But, apparently, in this world... they can :(

#265 Tesfurdo

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 01:26 PM

Words to justify a "ban who i want" policy.

#266 Ensaine

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 05:46 AM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,

"I don't come onto the forums, it's full of trolls."
This is a quote of a player from when I asked if they could send me their feedback and bug report through the forums, since chat logs are often a bit more work to sift through. I've heard variations of this phrase time in and time out for over two years now whenever I drop into a match..

As you may have recently heard, a few prolific forum-goers have been permanently forum banned. The average player has nothing to be afraid of out of this. I personally delivered those sanctions, and here's why...

The players who had been removed were all with prolific long histories of being moderated by various members of the team. This would all be well and good were it not for the fact that we have observed these same individuals openly mocking us and our players in third-party channels. I have made the decision that we will no longer offer such individuals the right to use our own channels as a means to drive away new players, denigrate the positive experiences of fans, derail the constructive feedback of the average player, and just plain heckle us; Even if it means someone resorting to proving Godwin's Law correct every once and a while.

Some will say moderation is silly, that freedom of speech is an essential right. We firmly believe that it is. We also firmly believe that we, as a business, may reserve our right to remove patrons who abuse that freedom.

Some will say that we must have more problems than others if we are in such need of moderation. Fact is, we aren't alone on this front by any measure...

In but a few days, over 2 thousand developers from numerous teams have felt the need to join their collective concern regarding harassment and threats around the gaming community, and calling against apathy towards abusive behaviour.

While there are always overarching principles of neutrality in most professional opinions. Opinions and practices of how to carry out and communicate moderation are often wildly varied and suggest that each successful community has had to evolve their own systems according to the expectations of their community.

To make things a bit more open, here's a primer on what our moderation system has looked like since December 2012. A system I collaborated heavily upon. I'll take my cake for any flaws in it's methodology. so please check out the spoiler.

Spoiler


We intend to take a firmer stand against repeatedly inflammatory behavior than before. To those who believe we expect each player to become a "white knight" in order to keep their posting privileges. I don't think I can stress enough that isn't the case. We hope to take criticism where-ever we deserve it; Where-ever it seeks to help us improve the game.

Please feel free to respond to one, some or all of the questions and dilemmas below.
  • Would you agree with the idea that we should revert to a 3-strike system for most general misconducts in the aforementioned Blue category?
  • It is often said to ignore those who actively ignore what you say or twist it towards their own ends. Given the prolific nature of some of these individuals, many of whom seem to spend whole work-weeks on the attack, should we make stronger efforts to remove those players who actively and repeatedly refute, deny, or ignore staff statements and announcements?
  • Do you feel it's more important for moderation to be fair and consistent (at the risk of seeming cold or authoritarian); or to handle matters on a case-by-case basis to offer individuals the benefit of the doubt (at the risk of seeming to offer favouritism or being manipulated)?
  • Is our Name & Shame policy fair to the privacy of players, or should we be publicly flagging banned/restricted players who have been repeatedly abusive in the spirit of being more open? What about the potential risk of "bullying the bullies"?
  • Do you feel that the creation and use of Kaetetoa has been a more open and productive way of handling simply unreasonable and unproductive threads? If not, should those be unproductive threads be un-approved or locked instead?
  • What kind of "positive" moderation systems (e.g. Likes. Rewards) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?
  • What kind of "negative" moderation systems (e.g. Restrictions, Penalties) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?
  • Given the increased use of alternate accounts at any time a player is suspended or banned, would you rather see the following: A) Increased thresholds on the Recruit restrictions. B ) Pay barriers placed on the forums for new accounts. C) [Your own recommendation].
  • Without naming individuals or citing cases; If you could offer a simple, polite and constructive suggestion to the staff and/or volunteer moderation team, what would it be?
  • Without naming individuals or citing cases; Do you have any general questions regarding the moderation system left unanswered by this post?
Even in the spirit of openness, I must be firm that this isn't a thread for tearing open wounds, old or new. It is one to find measures to heal them and to rebuild a trusting relationship between our community and team. Please try to keep your Reply TAGs firmly locked on me and not on the opinions of other players.





If you have concerns regarding moderation best left to private channels, please private message me.

Cheers.


So, how's all this working for you today Niko?

#267 Wolfways

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 08:42 AM

...and I'm back from a 5-day suspension.

I want to give my opinion on why i think moderation should be used on a case-by-case basis and why the moderators should talk to those who's post they feel needs moderated, but first i want to explain why.
I'm not going to repeat what i said in the post that got me the suspension (for obvious reasons) but simply explain what happened to get me my first ever suspension in any game forum.

I made a post which i later realized, after Niko gave the suspension, could easily be, and was misconstrued. It was not Niko's fault. They way i worded the post made it look like i was insulting PGI when it was actually a comment on game development companies using existing IP's in general, and i think the reason i didn't realize this when i wrote it is because of my time on the MWO forums.
I've been active in game forums for around 20 years. If i like a game i also like discussing it on the official forums. I have been involved in topics ranging from casual discussions to organizing server-wide events and i consider myself to be a polite person, but i have limits and i think the MWO forums have often pushed me past that limit.
The MWO forums can be a cesspit. In all my time on game forums I've never seen one in which "players" harass, ridicule, or outright attack the devs. At first i thought it was because of the way PGI have mishandled (my opinion) the BT franchise, but lately it is becoming increasingly clear that it is also because "some people just want to watch the world burn". I had thought that the idiots that go so far as threatening devs was only on these forums. I guess not. It seems to be a growing problem, although tbh i haven't noticed anything like that on the other game forums i use.

The post that got me the suspension was short and to the point. I think that my time on the MWO forums has been less about discussing the game and more of just repeating the same things over and over to the point where i just can't be bothered to write out a long post anymore. This i do consider PGI's fault. Because of the lack of communication with the players we are still talking about the same issues since closed beta and the "discussions" just never change. For example, we have been discussing how role warfare should be handled, yet Russ recently said that role warfare was already part of the game because all weight classes are viable. I guess Russ hasn't read the huge amount of threads covering the subject in the past 3 years or he would have said something....

So, eventually, i do think that moderators should contact the poster who's post needs moderated explaining the problem. If the post was deleted nothing more needs said, but otherwise the moderator should tell the poster to change the post. I had to contact a moderator and that moderator had to spend time trying to find out why i had been suspended. Please inform people of moderated posts and explain the situation.
Of course repeated offenders will be known and in that case i suppose there will be no need for the moderators to contact other than to explain why the poster is suspended/banned.

Oh and also, i think that having to pay for the privilege of using a forum is a ridiculous idea. Moderate the offenders, but don't limit the opinions of players to those who can afford to express them.

Edited by Wolfways, 11 September 2014 - 08:46 AM.


#268 OssenFoss

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 08:48 AM

I don't read the forums. I found wading through most of it to be a pointless waste of time. I only found this thread because I was using google to find out what happened to the "all" chat with the latest patch*.

What I suggest:
Crowd source your moderation.
Allow me to block all post from specific posters - this helps me right away.
When a poster has been blocked by a large number of users, review them for whatever more general procedures you want to apply.

Please do this for chat as well. Blocking the "all" chat is a pretty big hammer.

(*Please ensure the launcher patch notes button points to the latest patch when the patch is deployed. Several patches have left it pointing to an old patch for quite awhile. I see the latest is fixed now)

This is my first post on the forums - I don't plan to read/reply to any response - flame on!

#269 Jiang Wei

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 09:51 PM

When you request and welcome feedback from a game community, your going to get it. Good and bad.

Just remember, bad feedback means there is a problem with your game design, and should not be ignored, even if it from complete *******. Your feelings may be hurt, but you still need to listen and understand what the problem is with your product. The more angry the negative feed is, just means you have ignored it before, and thats why they get even more negative.

Instead of posting some crap abut how your devs feelings are hurt, how bout you communicate directly with these people you would rather ban than actually take seriously their suggestions.

Those members only got this way because you have completely ignored them for so long, that it has become nothing more than hatred.

You, the community managers, and developers(of any game)have created this situation yourselves.

So many gamers are upset in this generation because of games being developed to extort money from them without delivering a quality product. In short, gamers are tired of crappy games overpriced being developed.

So, to you, dear PGI, when you see this much negative feedback, look not to more forum moderation, but rather, listen, and figure out how you can improve the quality of your product instead, because thats really what all the rage is about. The more you ignore it, or moderate it, the worse it becomes. Think about that.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 11 September 2014 - 09:53 PM.


#270 L Y N X

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 11:12 PM

Hey Niko,

How about a MWO subforum were we can post bugs that PGI knows about but has no published plan to resolve?

case in point...

So I noticed months back that Thermal vision on Caustic Valley and Tourmaline Desert does not end at 700m like it is supposed to and does on most other maps. It works out to nearly 2km. So a month or so ago I email MWO Support and notify them about the bug, do you know how they responded? They said they know about it. It's a bug. It's been there for months...

PGI got thermal vision working on most maps, why on these two does it not work? Why wont PGI fix it? I'm not sure how else to raise awareness to this issue. PGI closed out my bug report as a known issue. Great, it is a known issue, but do not close it out, it was not resolved.

#271 Mycrus

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 03:06 AM

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:


You're right, on it's own it seems awkward. A few of my links didn't hook properly into my OP after fixing a copy error. I figure I can do one better than dropping a whole bunch of links though: https://www.google.c...=forum+toxicity
or https://www.google.c...+dev+harassment

We are by no measure the only game dealing with toxic behavior, which was my intent to point out. Others have faced far, far worse on great scales, we've thankfully been limited to our worst being a handful of death threats towards staff I'll spare the details, though I don't think the severity is what matters here. Harassment is harassment.


Puhleez. .. You mean the ones that happened in closed beta?

#272 Kageru Ikazuchi

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 03:08 AM

View PostJiang Wei, on 11 September 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

When you request and welcome feedback from a game community, your going to get it. Good and bad.

Just remember, bad feedback means there is a problem with your game design, and should not be ignored, even if it from complete *******. Your feelings may be hurt, but you still need to listen and understand what the problem is with your product. The more angry the negative feed is, just means you have ignored it before, and thats why they get even more negative. ...



Maybe, just maybe, the guy with the complaint has incomplete information, his own observation, and formed an opinion without having all the facts ... maybe it isn't the game design that is bad, but the communication about the game?

Quote

... So, to you, dear PGI, when you see this much negative feedback, look not to more forum moderation, but rather, listen, and figure out how you can improve the quality of your product instead, because thats really what all the rage is about. The more you ignore it, or moderate it, the worse it becomes.


I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on their design decisions until the game is complete, until then, I hope they keep up the additional communication, because up until a few months ago, that was sorely lacking (and the game is pretty fun).

Quote

Think about that.






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