39 replies to this topic

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

No, it actually didn't, as has been stated, proven and posted many times, and in facts, my previous post discussed.

Proven? In what way, I mean except Bryan saying: "Eh.... never happened!" ?

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 07 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Proven? In what way, I mean except Bryan saying: "Eh.... never happened!" ?

and the PGI Mods explaining exactly the nature of having taken a Loan form IGP to get started? Not gonna dig it up AGAIN for the 100th time, just because some people like to spread innuendo and rumors.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 September 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

and the PGI Mods explaining exactly the nature of having taken a Loan form IGP to get started? Not gonna dig it up AGAIN for the 100th time, just because some people like to spread innuendo and rumors.

It's up to you if you choose to trust their word for it, but that is most certainly not proven in any shape or form.

[CocoaJin]

LawDawg, on 07 September 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

\\

PGI has a track record. If they didn't, I would be on your side and give them the benefit of the doubt. They have ruined burned that bridge............. 20 + times. So no, No Sir, They get get no Quarter .............

That track record with respect to PGI does not include shuttling money from one project to another. Even if you look at MWO, that record isn't all that bad. This game is a mixed bag of a lot good mixed in with some bad...but the bones of the game is good and has a lot potential that the devs are constantly working on to materialize, in spite of some of their short falls.

PGI isn't without fault, but they come to work everyday trying to make the best game they can...truly, you burned the bridge, not PGI, because they haven't given up on this project...you have.

These guys keeping pushing forward, trying to make progress, moving to meet us halfway, yet you have nothing to contribute but venom...you literally back up and spit in their faces as they take steps forward...so who is really throwing this relationship under the bus?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

and the PGI Mods explaining exactly the nature of having taken a Loan form IGP to get started? Not gonna dig it up AGAIN for the 100th time, just because some people like to spread innuendo and rumors.

Because they can be trusted right?

Interesting discussion i found earlier.

Quote

As I saw on another thread:
Incoming necessary wall of text

The Gingerbread Man

Well Vass had a picture of Bryan's Linkedin on MWOG. I think it explains exactly where all the development/money went over the last two years:

http://ca.linkedin.c...ekman/1/b46/4a7[/color]

Highlighted:

http://i.imgur.com/UHnewDn.png[/color]

He has started TWO new companies since 2011. Concurrently while supposedly working on MWO.

Let's look at them:

Giomobi:I couldn't find anything about this on the internet, just people who use this as a monicker, maybe someone else will have luck. May be a ghost or already defunct because giomobi.com isn't even taken.

Rabbit Hole Interactive: Here's the website, not very impressive:

http://rabbitholeint.com/

So lets google it and see what comes up related:

http://kedavidson.bl...nteractive.html

Kind of weird, content listed for the strike/Hunt but also under the rabbit hole name. Those games came out in 09/10 but Rabbit Hole (according to their linked in) wasn't founded until 2011.

http://ca.linkedin.c...?trk=ppro_cprof

"Rabbit Hole has signed an exclusive multi-year product deal and is ramping up production." - can't wait to see what rights they acquired.

https://twitter.com/...124931753426944

http://bassproshopsgames.com/games

Weird, because they don't seem to have been involved in the mobile apps. They're advertising the launch of those games in Oct 2011, but even the site they link shows they came out in 09/10. Maybe re-launch/Bass Pro 2.0? In any case, the people who did the mobile apps (Outdoor Partners LLC) are suing Rabbit Hole (2013). Russ is named as a defendant, even though he doesn't seem to be listed on linkedin as part of RHI. If anyone has legal subscriptions, seeing the court files would be great:

http://dockets.justi...3cv01797/409228

It's pretty clear that Rabbit Hole is just the same people from PGI, they're even listed as being in the same mall. There are openly dual-role people outside of Bryan:

http://ca.linkedin.c...b?trk=pub-pbmap (COO PGI, CEO Rabbit Hole)

http://ca.linkedin.c...a?trk=pub-pbmap (HR)

Here's another senior position (Senior environment artist) at PGI with a dual role, not with Rabbit Hole though:

http://ca.linkedin.c...9?trk=pub-pbmap

She's had time/money enough in the last year and a half to start her own food company/restaurant. I guess we know why they have such a slow rate of map production.

As we've seen, only the mech concept/modeling crew has been working on this game full time over the last two years. The rest have been on other projects. Rabbit Hole is their next Jarhead (unless it was set up with the full intention of eating the lawsuit from their fishing game). Even their IGP overlords say that F2P is the new shovelware for small developers. He throws in a small reference to the fact that they're making MW:O a AAA title, but we can all see the results. Static 12v12 TDM is, by definition, simple and small.

http://i.imgur.com/EaAnSJ7.png

This is reinforced by that recent article where Russ proclaims: "The timing of the announcement of the new DLC had many players gnashing teeth, but "it's fairly normal in the industry to release one DLC after another," Bullock told us." They really consider mechs content. Since they're clearly the only truly monetized content due to their poor financial model, they'll keep shoveling them out as long as people buy them. License extension or no, they still have no real incentive to move people back from RHI to PGI and work on the base game unless it's for things like UI 2.0 (new cash shop).

What is Jarhead Games?

http://youtu.be/rJo7ZWoc9-M

Watch the credits when he starts a game for some familiar names.

Tycho in Space

Grab money, put a new company name on the van and move along to the next batch of suckers. That is what Bullock has been doing for over a decade and will simply continue doing until he gets shut down for good. The fact that Microsoft agreed to renew his license for Mechwarrior says to me that Microsoft really does not care about Battletech, they're content to let some ******** muck it up.



Oh no I do agree, and you may be onto something there with the whole "shell studios" game they've apparently been playing for years now. It certainly does make one a little more cautious in regards to opening the wallet up knowing their actual track record with budget titles and that MWO isn't actually their first rodeo like they in someways tried to lead people to believe early on.



Very interesting... I can see that Chris Pauwels is the CEO of rabbit hole but is the COO of Piranha.... it's almost as though the 3-4 guys of Bryan, Russ, Chris, Paul? play musical C-suite chairs between multiple companies. And yeah that thing about rabbithole interactive being set up in 2011 despite claiming titles from 2009/2010 seems really odd, though the lawsuit you pointed out does say 'Rabbit Hole et al' so hopefully it covers the usual suspects as well as the shell company.

Finding out that they're starting up multiple new companies really does show that these guys aren't focused on the task at hand.

edit: Also wanted to mention, about that connection between PGI--> IGP--> 7G--> Quebec taxpayers fund, what the hell are dollars from Quebec doing being spent on developers in Vancouver, Vancouver and Burnaby!? (PGI, Ironclad and Roadhouse of MWO, SODA, and MWT respectively)

I mean GAH! The people of Quebec are fiercely nationalistic and tried to eject from Canada in 1995. No way in hell would a wealth fund in Quebec want to fund jobs on the West coast! Someone seriously needs to get a journalist on this.



When I blamed the clangrab on external pressure, I immediately assumed IGP was in trouble and forcing them to generate more money or face development changes before the end of the year. I believe on the 3rd they posted that they might leak one clan mech concept soon, and then ~11 days later that had an entire grab deal full of them read to purchase.

Maybe the external pressure isn't IGP. Maybe they spent all their Bass Pro monies but have been sued to recover some of it. The clan deal may have been in response to needing legal representation or liquidity to settle without becoming insolvent.



Actually looking at the docs it looks like they got money from both levels of government. Prov from Quebec and Fed from Bus dev fund or BDC. They are also very widely held tax deductions made allowable for expenditures and also for employment support. So they burned through the founders and the PP money fast and looks like where caught in a bind. I have no doubt that the publisher put pressure on them to produce more revenue - after all that is what they want.

But it is odd that just a few days after dropping PP mechs and still not fully delivering on all those promises (loyalty ect) that the next batch was ready to go. From an accounting point of view it appears that they are burning money fast and arent able to generate enough on the micro transaction (day to day) functions and require continued large influx of cash for capital. A very bad sign.

Usually you give your customers time to heal before dumping the next hard sell but they didnt even wait. Given the state of the game and the low population I would say it is disconcerting. I get the wanted stuff for a christmas sale but why not have a bunch of hero mechs (new and old) on a discount and launch the clans in the new year after you had hit a few delivery dates?

Anyway it is a wreck and everyone is slowing down and taking a look. Any reasonable person would have subcontracted the CW out since they didnt have the in-house ability to work on it(most engies were on live game ect). But that costs money and where did all of it go?

Forgot - 7g pays taxes in Quebec so they can get the benefit of asking for $$. Unless there are stipulations on the money they can spend it how they see fit. PS you never ever want to get on the bad side of revenue quebec they are worse than CRA



It depends what exactly they're being sued for, exactly. Remember they're being sued in NY rather than Canada. If the other party wins, PGI has to pay their own legal expenses, could be forced to pay the plaintiff's legal expenses on top of whatever the award is. We also don't know if punitive damages will be sought- for example if they're suing on the basis that they hurt the brand. The game isn't probably a big money maker, but Bass Pro Shops is a pretty large chain. I don't think they'd bother pressing a case against a foreign company unless they thought they'd get a serious payday out of it.

After going through their potential income for the last year and how underwhelming the Phoenix package really was, even a few hundred thousand could be catastrophic. NY lawyers are expensive, even if they win.

I would also like to point out that this explains why they wanted a second concept artist and a lot of redundant-sounding positions recently on their "now hiring" page. These aren't positions for MW:O, these are hires for Rabbit Hole using MW:O income. Flyingdebris has a lot on his plate with clans, and may not have the right level of expertise to draw fish and moose.

Outdoor Partners LLC v. Rabbit Hole Interactive Corp. et al - Document 38http://law.justia.co...01797/409228/38

These people at PGI are scam artists. Do not take them for anything but just that.

Found this interesting too. Do what you want with it https://www.change.o...ranha-games-inc

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[CocoaJin]

mongo2006, on 07 September 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

But as far as this new game they making, I would rather play Star Citizen even if it sucked compared to the new PGI game just to spite them for what they did to Mechwarrior.

Normally I'd try to be more diplomatic about responding to this, be a little softer and compare such statements to the behavior of a child, but in about to get real with you...dude you sound like b!tch. And I say that with a straight face, one man to what I assume is another...in hopes it'll help you grow a bit.

Edited by CocoaJin, 07 September 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 07 September 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Because they can be trusted right?

Interesting discussion i found earlier.

Yes, because it behooves PGI to lie about it, and it makes sense for PGI to give money from their game to another Dev team, unrelated to them.

Unless of course, they didn't.

On the other hand, logic sides with PGIs explanation. PGI didn't just build the barebones of MWO pre Founders for free. Publishers front capitol, to get things started, and in return, expect repayment and a percent of any future profits. Publishers, ALSO tend to deal with more than one Dev Team. And they use money where they see fit.

But hey man, I know where we can get you and Vass, (the most credible source in MWO, obviously) fitted for some very nice tin foil hats.

As I have said, PGI has screwed up many things. And I am more than willing to cal them out when they do. I don't see a need to invent ghosts and strawmen to discredit them further. Especially ones perpetuated by morons who labor under the assumption that PGI failing will somehow free up the license and magically we will get a new, better game. For a title no large studio was willing to spend money on. In a decade.

[Skunk Wolf]

Why? Have to get a new revenue stream. I'm just surprised that they were ballsy enough to not put a shell company's name on it. This product is ending it's development cycle and they have to move on.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yes, because it behooves PGI to lie about it, and it makes sense for PGI to give money from their game to another Dev team, unrelated to them.

Unless of course, they didn't.

On the other hand, logic sides with PGIs explanation. PGI didn't just build the barebones of MWO pre Founders for free. Publishers front capitol, to get things started, and in return, expect repayment and a percent of any future profits. Publishers, ALSO tend to deal with more than one Dev Team. And they use money where they see fit.

But hey man, I know where we can get you and Vass, (the most credible source in MWO, obviously) fitted for some very nice tin foil hats.

As I have said, PGI has screwed up many things. And I am more than willing to cal them out when they do. I don't see a need to invent ghosts and strawmen to discredit them further. Especially ones perpetuated by morons who labor under the assumption that PGI failing will somehow free up the license and magically we will get a new, better game. For a title no large studio was willing to spend money on. In a decade.

You didn't read any of the links did you?
The only thing i see Vass have a hand in that conversation was looking at Bryans linked in, the rest is work and conversations of other people.

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 September 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Is it actually PGI or IGP? : /

[CocoaJin]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Yes, because it behooves PGI to lie about it, and it makes sense for PGI to give money from their game to another Dev team, unrelated to them.

Unless of course, they didn't.

On the other hand, logic sides with PGIs explanation. PGI didn't just build the barebones of MWO pre Founders for free. Publishers front capitol, to get things started, and in return, expect repayment and a percent of any future profits. Publishers, ALSO tend to deal with more than one Dev Team. And they use money where they see fit.

But hey man, I know where we can get you and Vass, (the most credible source in MWO, obviously) fitted for some very nice tin foil hats.

As I have said, PGI has screwed up many things. And I am more than willing to cal them out when they do. I don't see a need to invent ghosts and strawmen to discredit them further. Especially ones perpetuated by morons who labor under the assumption that PGI failing will somehow free up the license and magically we will get a new, better game. For a title no large studio was willing to spend money on. In a decade.

A post so nice you got to post it twice.

[mongo2006]

CocoaJin, on 07 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Normally I'd try to be more diplomatic about responding to this, be a little softer and compare such statements to the behavior of a child, but in about to get real with you...dude you sound like b!tch. And I say that with a straight face, one man to what I assume is another...in hopes it'll help you grow a bit.

Well thank you for your opinion dude but I'll do a PGI to ya. I don't give a damn what you think, and if I want to ***** about the dumb **** PGI does or the crap that comes out of your slong suckers....as they tell us clanners you gonna just have to SUCK IT UP.. Until you get a clan badge under your name you have NOTHING to say to me worth interest.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 07 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

You didn't read any of the links did you?
The only thing i see Vass have a hand in that conversation was looking at Bryans linked in, the rest is work and conversations of other people.

Have looked at them when first posted.

And they essentially have nothing to do with PGI repaying IGP a loan. But keep spreading your conspiracy theories, if it makes you feel better.

mongo2006, on 07 September 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well thank you for your opinion dude but I'll do a PGI to ya. I don't give a damn what you think, and if I want to ***** about the dumb **** PGI does or the crap that comes out of your slong suckers....as they tell us clanners you gonna just have to SUCK IT UP.. Until you get a clan badge under your name you have NOTHING to say to me worth interest.

I don't have a Clan Tag on THIS account. On the other hand, my Alt Account DOES have the Masakari Pack. And there was nothing in the verbiage of the purchase that said ANYTHING about the money I spent being exclusively tagged for use in MWO. I paid PGI, a game development compàny, to get early access to MEchs, some premium time and baubles.

If you pay a game development company money, then get shocked that they use resources for other games then you sir, are the idiot, with nothing to say. Blizzard uses money from WoW on multiple other games. EA money from Madden to and such other titles. That is what Game Companies do.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 September 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Have looked at them when first posted.

And they essentially have nothing to do with PGI repaying IGP a loan. But keep spreading your conspiracy theories, if it makes you feel better.

So for my own clarity here; you find nothing suspicious with all these registered companies of whom the CEOs all fall within a small bracket of people at PGI?
Some of these companies based in the same offices?

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 07 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

So for my own clarity here; you find nothing suspicious with all these registered companies of whom the CEOs all fall within a small bracket of people at PGI?
Some of these companies based in the same offices?

Nope, not really. I am working on what is HERE. But hey, tinfoil hats are all the rage, I hear.

[Illegal Username]

Wow. Look at all these negative opinions. This thread is going to get memory holed hard

[Aresye]

CocoaJin, on 07 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I'm not saying its impossible for the new game to have used resources from MWO, but I'm mature enough not to go off the handle because it might have. Some of you have no other purpose but to spread angst by imagining the worst and spreading it in the forum as if it's truth. Truly, you are the most miserable of people.

I go off common sense for reasoning most of the time, and common sense tells me that this new game has something to do with the fact that the devs:
- Take an absurd amount of time to release basic content (ex: maps).
- Can't put forth the effort to do any kind of in-depth coding and changes (ex: Can't do 10v12 because...hard).

I made a post in reply to the command chair post with PGI saying 10v12 won't be doable because they'd essentially have to recode the matchmaker and tweak the UI, something I got very vocal about considering they're a game company, and it's their very job to be able to do simple things such as coding and UI changes.

Seeing the topic about this new game was like a, "Oh, so that's why they said they don't have enough time to tweak the matchmaker coding," type of epiphany.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Aresye, on 07 September 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I go off common sense for reasoning most of the time, and common sense tells me that this new game has something to do with the fact that the devs:
- Take an absurd amount of time to release basic content (ex: maps).
- Can't put forth the effort to do any kind of in-depth coding and changes (ex: Can't do 10v12 because...hard).

I made a post in reply to the command chair post with PGI saying 10v12 won't be doable because they'd essentially have to recode the matchmaker and tweak the UI, something I got very vocal about considering they're a game company, and it's their very job to be able to do simple things such as coding and UI changes.

Seeing the topic about this new game was like a, "Oh, so that's why they said they don't have enough time to tweak the matchmaker coding," type of epiphany.

Does Bloodwolf know your not a PGI fan boi?

[mongo2006]

Man I could care less about what PGI spends their money on, it's just that simple. But as far as their new game I will not entertain the thought of playing another PGI title.. I'm not even playing mechwarrior right now..

I'm waiting for a roll back on the nerfs so I keep the browser refreshing every 30 seconds, if that doesn't happen in a few days I'm gone period.. I'm on the forums with this monitor, playing Hawken on one, and updating Titanfall in the background. Going through real estate listing on the other computer, I'll keep it 100 with you I'm moving on.

[Egomane]

Please post questions to this official thread. Make sure to read the opening post.
http://mwomercs.com/...lore-part-deux/

Closing!